posted by
someone claiming to be Hugh
on
Fri Jan 11 11:09 CST 2008 [ RELATED]
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Hello All,
My independent mechanic just replaced the two O2 sensors on my 1996 850 when the "Check Engine" light came on. He said his shop is now following the practice of dealerships of replacing both sensors at the same time because "It has come back to bite them when they didn't". I assume he meant that a week later the other sensor failed. At $250 a pop plus the additional labor the bill was in excess of $700. I'm questioning whether the "economics" of this decision in in my best interest. Putting that issue aside, I know the O2 sensors will fail again, so I would like to replace them myself in the future. Can anyone telll me the following:
1) Once the CEL comes on, is all I need to confirm it is the O2 sensor os to use an OBI II Scanner? If so, where can I get one, and what should I expect to pay? Also, what are the code(s) that confirm the O2 sensors are bad?
2) How difficult is it to remove these sensors? I know one screws in the front part of the exhaust (the catalytic converter?) and the other in the rear portion of the exhaust system. I think I need a special "open" wrench that iPd sells to loosen these sensors. Is it very difficult to gain access to these sensors, and is it a nightmare to get them off because they "fuse" to the metal after a while because of the high temperature they are exposed to? Is there any other type of tool I need to do this job?
3)Is there any web site with detailed instructions and pictures to show how this replacement of these sensors is performed.
Thanks in advance to all who repond. Your assistance helps to reduce the costs of maintenance on these cars.
Hugh
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Hugh,
I just did the rear sensor today - it was a pretty easy job.
I bought the O2 sensor tool made by Lisle from a local auto shop and followed the instructions on Bay 13 (http://volvospeed.com/maintence.htm). It took some torque to loosen the sensor, but it wasn't that bad.
I'm cheap, so I bought a generic O2 sensor (Bosch number 15717) for about $50 and spliced it into the existing wiring. I think this is actually easier than buying the "proper" sensor, because it's a whole lot quicker to cut and splice wires by the sensor than to thread a long lead through the whole engine bay. All Bosch 4 wire sensors are basically the same - the difference is in the connector and wire length (oh, and price!). The 15717 is for various Fords.
So for about $50 and about 1.5 hours labor, I replaced one sensor - the other would have been an additional 30 minutes, but that had been replaced fairly recently by the previous owner, so I left that one alone.
For a scan tool, go to scantool.net and buy theirs for about $50. This is one you plug into a laptop (assuming you have a laptop, of course) and it works very well. It will read and reset codes and read various sensors. It uses open source software, so that is free. My 850 didn't have a check engine light, but the scan tool was showing an O2 fault, which is now gone. Now to see if my gas mileage gets where it should.
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posted by
someone claiming to be Hugh
on
Sun Jan 13 22:58 CST 2008 [ RELATED]
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Trirod,
Thanks! Your reply is what makes the Brickboard such an effective source of information! BTW, I was charged in excess of $250 for each sensor vs. the $50 you paid. "Oh what feeling....."
Hugh
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A search for O2 sensor will give you a lot of material. A scanner for around $150 will give you the DTC definition, but those are for V8 engines so you will have to interpret a little.
For the replacement procedures:
http://volvospeed.com/vs_forum/index.php?showtopic=65824
Great write up. I do not agree with the mechanic who said to replace both at once. The forward O2 sensor will usually go first due to the high heat. AND most O2 sensor errors are caused by vacuum leaks which cause the engine to run rich, triggering the error.
Klaus
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The 164 has a new home, all I am left with are a 95 854T and a 98 V70R :)
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posted by
someone claiming to be Hugh
on
Sat Jan 12 06:58 CST 2008 [ RELATED]
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Klaus,
As usual, you are a wealth of information. I too, felt the fact "the dealer does it too" was not a legitimate justification by my independent garage. I purposely "avoid what dealers do" which is why I go to an independent garage. I confess it annoys me I probably paid for an O2 sensor along with the labor that had not failed yet. Plus, it's my understanding, based upon the codes desplayed, you can differentiate whether the front or rear sensor has failed.
Klause, some questions which I mentioned before: Is it very difficult to remove these sensors? Is it imperative I have access to a lift? Can I do it on the ground with the car on jacks? Do you need special tools to remove the sensors?
On a personal level, I would like to duplicate the recent success experienced in repairing the ABS Unit on my 1999 XC (thanks to Victor Rocha)in replacing the O2 sensors. I know this repair will happen again, I just don't want to have to shell out $700 plus if I can avoid it.
I like the Volvo 850, and try to do as many of the repairs and maintenance that I can to over come a comment I heard on this column long ago, which although critical is true "850s are maintenance hogs". I still like my 850s, I'm just trying to reign in the cost of ownership as much as possible. Klaus, your response along with others has helped me do just that. Keep them coming! My only regret, is I wish I had similar knowledge to offer to those who have responded so thoroughly in the past to my inquiries. Thanks!
Hugh
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A scanner, either yours or the ones auto parts stores let you use for free, will tell you if there is a code set for front or rear O2 sensor. Most times it is a vacuum leak, not the sensor.
The link to Volvospeed shows how to replace your own front O2 sensor, rear should be similar. You can use a 22mm box wrench if you free up the wire first and thread the wire through the box end. I suggest spending the extra bucks for a 6 point wrench from Sears or some other reputable company, not one made in China which is too thin.
Klaus
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The 164 has a new home, all I am left with are a 95 854T and a 98 V70R :)
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posted by
someone claiming to be Hugh
on
Sun Jan 13 05:27 CST 2008 [ RELATED]
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Klaus,
The vacuum leak - that applies to which sensor? Both? Also, where do I look for that vacuum leak and how do I confirm it? I.E. put soapy water near the area?
Sorry for all the follow up questions Klaus. Take it as back handed compliment, that "you're suffering for your knowledge".
Thanks,
Hugh
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Soapy water is used for finding pressured air leaks, look for the bubbles? A vacuum leak is air being sucked in, no bubbles. A spray bottle with plain water can be used, then when the water reaches the intake manifold your idle will drop slightly. But that only works with a large crack.
Generally, vacuum hoses over 10 years old will start to develop cracks, especially where they make bends around engine componants and where they connect to various nipples. These areas will appear to be softer than the rest of the line.
Some on this board swear by new silicone vacuum lines. I haven't done that yet. I just replaced the elbows when they appeared to get soft.
Usually, the front O2 sensor gets a code that the engine is running lean, adds more gasoline to the mix, and your gas mileage goes down. Or the O2 sensor, front, cannot keep up with the fluctuations of a leaky vacuum line and causes the ratio of the rear O2 sensor to also post a code.
Klaus
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The 164 has a new home, all I am left with are a 95 854T and a 98 V70R :)
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I bought the autoenginuity scanner over ebay a few years ago. It is MUCH better than the code readers and will give you readings for all the sensors and even do a diagnostic check on all the systems. You install it on a laptop computer and use the autoenginuity scanner on the volvo. For the oxygen sensors, it shows the readings and an ociloscope reading while the engine is running. The autoenginutiy site has a movie that you can download showing how it works. http://www.autoenginuity.com.
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1998 Volvo S70
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posted by
someone claiming to be Hugh
on
Sun Jan 13 10:51 CST 2008 [ RELATED]
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Kshaw,
How much did this scanner cost? Do I understand correctly, that you use a laptop computer and plug it into the OBI II plug?
Thanks for your help.
Hugh
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I believe it was about $180. You download the software from the website including any updates and the connector connects either by serial cable, USB cable, or bluetooth wireless, to the laptop. The updates are free unless you get some of the enhanced diagnogstics available for certain cars. For racers, it also comes with software that measures horsepower as you accelerate.
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1998 Volvo S70
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I payed around $150. The company sells on ebay at less than listed price.
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1998 Volvo S70
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posted by
someone claiming to be Hugh
on
Sun Jan 13 22:53 CST 2008 [ RELATED]
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KShaw,
Will this scanner reset the maintenance light?
Hugh
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No. I bought a seperate device from IPD that does that. I believe that there are workarounds for those that do not have the 98 S70, but I am not that familar with it.
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1998 Volvo S70
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Not cheap, but very good if one has a lap top. I wouldn't reccomend driving while scanning :)
What options are needed for Volvo? Are the updates at $50 needed? Can you check different years of cars. Are other pieces of software needed to do ABS and SRS work?
I can't afford $250 so I still go to Autozone. But these handheld scanners will never do manufacture specific codes, much less get rid of that stupid service light.
Thanks,
Klaus
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The 164 has a new home, all I am left with are a 95 854T and a 98 V70R :)
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Get the prices from Ebay rather than the website for a better deal. The ebay sales are direct from the software author. There seems to be some Volvo proprietary codes that the scanner does not seem to read, but it still reads the OBD II codes and will let you clear any codes.
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1998 Volvo S70
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posted by
someone claiming to be Hugh
on
Sun Jan 13 10:55 CST 2008 [ RELATED]
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Klaus,
You raised a good point. Are there any after market scanners that will eliminate the service light that comes on every 10,000 miles? Being able to reset that light on my own instead of having to go down to my local garage would be a great convenience.
As always, thanks for your help.
Hugh
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There are no hand held scanners that reset the service light. A $180 handheld tool will reset it. That is why the laptop scanner is much better.
There is a way to make your own scanner, but I have yet to find out which OBDII port handles all of the good stuff. If I had enough time and it was warm in my garage... All that is needed is a button switch, a 12V light bulb, and wire.
Klaus
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The 164 has a new home, all I am left with are a 95 854T and a 98 V70R :)
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posted by
someone claiming to be Hugh
on
Wed Jan 16 08:51 CST 2008 [ RELATED]
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Klaus,
Do you mean to say this lap top scanner combines two functions in one: it can read codes and reset the service light? That as a result, if is superior to handheld device (my garage uses one) that just resets the service only and clears codes?
Hugh
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When it gets warmer, I am going to pull the instrument panel and remove the service light bulb. Lots cheaper than anything on the market, besides a small square of black electricians tape!
Kshaw said the laptop scanner does not reset his 1998 service light.
Klaus
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The 164 has a new home, all I am left with are a 95 854T and a 98 V70R :)
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posted by
someone claiming to be Hugh
on
Fri Jan 18 10:59 CST 2008 [ RELATED]
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Klaus,
Your advice is a "hoot"! It really cuts to the chase in terms of ending the nuisance of dealing with the service light with the least amount of cost FOREVER. A blunt approach, but permanently effective. Why didn't I think of that? Thanks as always!
Hugh
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posted by
someone claiming to be jasaab
on
Mon Jan 14 09:59 CST 2008 [ RELATED]
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Works great and reads factory codes:
http://850r.dk/pdf/850/volvo%20error%20code%20readout,%201996-1998.pdf
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Just get the parts from your local radio shack. It works through 1998, I think. I haven't done it yet, Autozone is close by.
Klaus
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The 164 has a new home, all I am left with are a 95 854T and a 98 V70R :)
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