posted by
someone claiming to be Blake
on
Thu Jun 26 06:33 CST 2008 [ RELATED]
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Howdy Fellow Bricksters,
My 96 850 with about 180K has been popping out of second gear (I'm a firm believer of engine braking) right around the 3-2500 range, as I decelerate in second gear, an audible "clunk" and it goes out of gear. Whats the deal? Doesn't do it anyother gear. Clutch is good, and shifts very smoothly. If I hold on to the shifter in second, it isn't a problem, but who wants to hold on to that shifter all day? I gotta drive!
Thanks in advance,
Blake
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I have to disagree with Ken a little on this. The syncronizer forces the gear to spin faster to allow a smooth downshift. When this fails, you will get a noticable crunch and need to match engine rpm to driveshaft rpm. You do not have this problem.
Either your linkage from the shifter to the tranny is bent, the bearing under the shifter is loose and worn so that it won't hold under pressure, or the tranny mount on the driver's side is worn/broken. (not engine mount)
There is a lot of torque in 2nd gear and if anything is loose you will fall into neutral. While parked and engine off, put it into 2nd. Then with no clutch, try to see if it will fall out of gear easily compared to 3rd gear. If not, then check the tranny mount - I have seen a few of the metal brackets snap off.
Replace the front rotors and pads soon, please. And keep driving it like you hate it!!! That is good for the engine :) and your soul :)
Klaus
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I still miss my 164
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posted by
someone claiming to be Blake
on
Mon Jun 30 05:59 CST 2008 [ RELATED]
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Thanks Klaus, that sounds a little more like it, I'll check it out today. As far as double-clutching, I thought that was a bit of a lost art form since synchromesh transmission was popularized 50 years ago. Sure semis, and I guess a few race cars use the non synchro. But I guess I'm missing the point of double-clutching, and since this is an open discussion... I fail to see why when I don't double clutch, but instead go to the next lower gear (without going into neutral), while matching the revs, I will wear down the synchronizer. The whole point of the synchros is to match the engine speed with the trans (so I been told), which is what I am doing (so i am doing it's job and not using them). I mean hell, I can shift my car up and down with out the clutch, so i for sure now where the revs need to be versus speed and gear, and it is smooth as can be. My question is, when you shift into neutral, what does that do for you? Does it remove the trans from the spinning wheels, or is the trans still spinning with them? If either is true, I still fail to see the point. Someone please clear this up for me, and maybe, just maybe, I will be a double-clutching man.
Keep it going,
~Blake
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I drove a VW Bug (63) for a year with a broken clutch cable. When stopped, I had to turn the engine off to get it into 1st gear and then I cranked the starter to get moving :) Up and down shifts were slow to match the engine rpm and smooth as silk, except 1st and R of course. No damage to the tranny.
Today, computers take over with the clutchless semi automatics.
Double clutching is not required unless a syncronizer goes out/fails. The syncronizers are the weak point in a shifter, but they are only used sparingly and ONLY while shifting. After you have shifted into 2nd, the syncronizer has nothing else to do, it will not keep your tranny in gear. That function is in the linkage somewhere.
Because you drop 2nd at about 3-3500rpm, remember that that is when peak torque is achieved. You are not going to generate the same torque in 3, 4, and 5th unless your are doing well over 100mph - and I don't advise doing such on public roads. But 4th should also "pop" out under the same conditions.
When neutral is selected, the driveshaft still spins the tranny, but none of the gears are touching. When the clutch is depressed, the tranny is disconnected from the engine but the tranny is still connected and in gear and rotating.
Klaus
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I still miss my 164
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After re-reading the original post, yes, Klaus is correct in that I was answering a different problem. My mistake.
However, concerning double-clutching, the act of transiting into the next gear (either lower, or higher) is the point at which the synchromesh operate. So, if you are already in the lower gear, and blip the throttle, you are matching the rpms at the clutch disk, but not at the synchromesh.
Occassionally (actally rarely), on this board, we've heard of someone wearing-out their second gear synchro, and that is the problem I was addressing(incorrectly addressing). But it is still a real issue, and if you have the ability to learn how to double-clutch, and you can benefit by saving your synchromesh at the same time, why not?
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posted by
someone claiming to be fixit2003
on
Fri Jun 27 01:45 CST 2008 [ RELATED]
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You're probably looking at a tranny rebuild or replacement. Or just avoid letting up on the gas in second. I'd recommend using the brakes more. They're cheaper to replace.
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posted by
someone claiming to be Blake
on
Sun Jun 29 11:39 CST 2008 [ RELATED]
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and at this point, the rotors are pretty must shot too.
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Check engine mounts.
By firm believer in engine braking, do you mean that you downshift through the gears to slow the car down when coming to a stop?
When you downshift, do you double-clutch downshift?
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posted by
someone claiming to be Blake
on
Sat Jun 28 13:21 CST 2008 [ RELATED]
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Persay, a red light quarter of a mile a way, going 50 mph, I throw the car in third, brings the revs up to match the speed with the trans and let it on out. Generally I just engine brake in third, but when going around a slow turn, second comes in to play, ones again, I always match the RPM, I love heel and toe, and since the petals are so close together... Usually never go down to first, unless pulling into my drive way, which is downhill. Engine mounts are very tight, no abnormal movement. Also I never grind gears. I have noticed a leak on the out board transmission gasket (driver side). Have yet to check the oil since I can't figure a way, short of a lift, to raise the car evenly. Maybe low on oil? Trans is quiet as a mouse, shifts smoothly.
Thanks,
Blake
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We're almost there . . .
When you bring the revs up to match the speed, which procedure are you using:
1) push in the clutch, downshift though neutural to the lower gear, goose the throttle to match the revs, let out the clutch.
2) push in the clutch, shift into neutural, let out the clutch, goose the throttle to match the revs, push in the clutch, downshift into the lower gear, let out the clutch.
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posted by
someone claiming to be Blake
on
Sun Jun 29 10:40 CST 2008 [ RELATED]
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The First one for sure.
~Blake
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Well Blake, hate to bring you bad news, but I think that Fixit2003's response was correct--our transmission is probably shot.
And, not to make you feel too guilty, but your insistance on downshifting probably caused the problem.
When you shift, manual transmissions have small, soft-metal components, called synchromesh, which take the brunt of the forces in an attempt to match speeds of the various components of the transmission. These soft-metal components can last only so long before they wear-out. The more you use them, the faster they wear out.
You can artificially match the speeds of the various components by using a technique called double-clutch downshifting. That technique is was technique number two in my previous eMail. The technique may seem impossible to master--and it is difficult to learn--but in the end it become second-nature.
Unfortunately, technique one, which you are using, literally, doesn't do anything.
So, until you learn proper double-clutch downshifting, I would use your brakes, rather than your tranmission, to slow your car down.
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