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Well it was getting gas and getting spark.
But I do not understand how it's possible: 0 psi on all cylinders ???
Even if the rings were fried, adding oil would get some small amount, no?
There is some back pressure puffing out of the air box.
I'm not sure how I could have tested compression improperly?
PO said car stalled at light and never would start again.
Timing belt is intact, can see intake cam rotate, can see both cam pulleys turn.
Very weird: intake cam pulley has some lateral wobble, can be moved by hand.
Could the exhaust pulley have come disconnected from the cam?
How would the intake cam pulley become so loose?
I have more questions now than when I started diagnosis.
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Optimist - half full, Pessimist - half empty, Engineer - The capacity is twice what it needs to be.
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Just spoke to my local Volvo indy, tells me the CVVT hub was removed (PO not me) and that for him to align the cams is $500+, and is not guaranteed to bring back compression. In other words, time for the head to come off to verify no bent valves.
Thanks for everyone's help and ideas.
PS - He's only charging me $40 for the diagnosis. I would highly recommend this guy for anyone in the Northern Cincy area.
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Optimist - half full, Pessimist - half empty, Engineer - The capacity is twice what it needs to be.
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I was in dayton for a few years and made a couple of trips down to cincy. Is he within a mile or so of 75 and specialize only in Volvo? I ask because I remember driving by a couple of times and seeing like 8 volvo's in the lot.. Heard he was a great guy, but never had the need to stop by..
So you going to do the work yourself now or is it his turn to work with the car?
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He specializes in Volvo, but is within a mile or so of 71, ~5 miles east of 75.
I am now going to remove the head.
http://www.mapquest.com/maps?city=Cincinnati&state=OH&address=9305+Montgomery+Rd&zipcode=45242-7737&country=US&latitude=39.22492&longitude=-84.35566&geocode=ADDRESS
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Optimist - half full, Pessimist - half empty, Engineer - The capacity is twice what it needs to be.
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Lawnmower syndrome typically has zero compression because of the washed rings. A cold engine will have compression down below 150psi at times.
Adding a table spoon of oil to each cylinder (use a drinking straw for no mess, insert into oil and put finger over the top and then dump it into the hole) will increase the compression enough so the engine will fire up.
If you suspect that the intake cam is off, and there are 3 bolts to hold it in place, you are in unchartered territory.
Klaus
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Two good Volvos, a 220 and a V70R
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Symptoms of LMS include fast cranking, correct? This car cranks slowly.
Oil was added, as you described, yet still no compression registered.
Also, there is air pushed backwards out through the air box causing it to bounce while unclipped and cranking engine.
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Optimist - half full, Pessimist - half empty, Engineer - The capacity is twice what it needs to be.
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I wonder if the cams are upside down. expansion stroke being intake stroke.. Your exhaust should be closed enough of a system that if you put your hand over the tailpipe you'll feel air being sucked in. If that's the case, you might be lucky and only have to reset the timing belt. If it sucks and blows then, well, I believe you're screwed cause you have an interference engine and your valves are down at all times hitting the pistion..
If this is the case (backwards cams) I doubt you would have ever had the engine running because there would be no spark when there's fuel and no fuel when there's spark (you're welcome 4-stroke engine). But the good news with that its unlikely you've damaged the engine, so a 'quick' timing belt change and you're set.
BTW in your sig, Engineer - The cup has a safety factor of two.
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I'll check the exhaust, thanks.
The PO stated the car was running, stalled at a light, then would not start. They were driving home from the BMV after changing title of gift car from father. They claimed to know nothing of Volvos, so I doubt they worked on it themselves. There was debris collected under spark plug cover from deteriorating wire loom wrap, making me think that it has not been apart recently.
I hear no metal to metal noises that I would expect of a crashed head.
Any thought re: air box lid bounce ?
"I didn't think it was possible, but this both sucks and blows." - Bart Simpson
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Optimist - half full, Pessimist - half empty, Engineer - The capacity is twice what it needs to be.
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i'm basing the reverse flow on the bouncing air box.
Now that i've had some time to think about it (you know, 15minutes or so) I'm leaning towards stuck open/ crap intake valves.
Lets start over, (and I apologize for patronizing you here) you know how to do the compression test right?
Do you know if your rig works or do you assume it to? The easiest way to test the mechanism would be to grab a working car and try it and verify compression.
Assuming it checks out (I'm trying to figure out a way that the gauge works and you have zero pressure at all times, it should at least jump a little as the cylinder goes from negative to positive pressure (down stroke to upstroke..)) then your numbers can be trusted. The oil addition test you did can also be trusted.
Next it would be most helpful to do a leak test. Hopefully you have an air compressor and you can rent the rest of the tools at Autozone (assuming you don't have them already).. You inject your cylinder at TDC with air at 80-100psi and see how much leaks out. Odds are most (if not all, given your situation) the air will leak quickly, but where the air comes from tells you whats wrong with the car. Air out the exaust is exaust valves. Air out the throttle body is intake valves. Air out the PCV system is most likely cylinders or rings.
Good luck
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Not a problem, I'll tolerate being patronized, if it leads me to a solution/answer. ;-)_)
Testing procedure: all plugs removed, fuses 3 & 4 pulled for fuel pump, coils, press on pedal, crank engine. Believe me, I thought about whether I did something wrong multiple times.
The gauge is only a couple months old and was previously used on a dead 1994 850, registering appropriate compression on 3 cyl (150 psi), 75 on another, and 0 on another, so fairly sure the gauge is not an issue.
I doubt I can get to a leak test tonight, as my wife told me one window would not go up on her car, so that's a priority.
There isn't an elec. compression release on these cars, or similar, is there?
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Optimist - half full, Pessimist - half empty, Engineer - The capacity is twice what it needs to be.
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I agree with Tmann. Having all 5 cyl at 0 is strange. After you fix your wife's window, and I do understand priorities, take the Tbelt cover off and turn the crank and try to align the timing marks.
One of the BB members got a car where the cam pos sensor back plate was put in at 180 degrees off. But he had huge backfires out the intake manifold :)
Klaus
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Two good Volvos, a 220 and a V70R
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I got a little time yesterday and took the tbelt cover off. Here are the pulleys.
I put chalk on the indentations for visibility. I cannot yet get the wheel removed to check the crankshaft mark, as it is on a trailer.
What about the VVT unit on these models? Could a failure cause the reverse air flow?
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Optimist - half full, Pessimist - half empty, Engineer - The capacity is twice what it needs to be.
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Not only have I never heard of a VVT unit failure, the valves do not change THAT much. Your pic shows the cams in about the correct spot, the top cover needs to be inplace to verify. Shine a strong flashlight on the crank and you might be able to see the crank mark. A trouble light won't work.
The belt looks to be in good shape, but check the tensioner anyway.
If you haven't seen this thread yeat, it makes for good reading. Especially the part where the crank gets turned 90 degrees past TDC and then back to the alignment marks, before removing the belt:
http://volvoxc.com/resources/how-to/pdf/timing-belt-replacement2.pdf
Have you tried to add oil to each cyl to raise the compression? Dip a straw in a bottle of motor oil, place finger on top, carry to sparkplug hole, release finger, no mess. About 2 inches of oil in the straw = one table spoon.
Klaus
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Two good Volvos, a 220 and a V70R
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Tried to see mark from above with a flashlight yesterday, no dice. Need to get that wheel off. Didn't bother putting top cover on as I couldn't verify crank position.
I'm thinking that maybe someone tried to change the belt, did not follow the: 90 degrees past, then back to TDC, and it's off due to that.
Tried the oil before, but maybe didn't use enough. Have to verify the timing though before I do anything else for my own satisfaction (I can't get no).
Thanks, Al
EDIT - Funny, I already had that PDF open on my desktop that you provided.
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Optimist - half full, Pessimist - half empty, Engineer - The capacity is twice what it needs to be.
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If someone took off the belt with out releasing the VVT tension, the cam will rotate with enough force to bend a couple of valves, but not ALL of the cylinders will be damaged.
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Two good Volvos, a 220 and a V70R
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Hopefully that is not the case, but here is visual proof the timing is off. I lined up the intake mark, then looked at the exhaust.
The exhaust cam pulley is clearly off by one tooth. I was unable to remove the crank pulley, nor see the mark, so I still do not know whether the intake is retarded a tooth, or the exhaust is advanced a tooth.
--
Optimist - half full, Pessimist - half empty, Engineer - The capacity is twice what it needs to be.
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I don't wish to add to the pile of horse manure, but I have seen plenty of engines run with that configuration. Which is why I tell people to count the teeth between the cams before they pull off the belt. The code will be set to indicate that timing is off, the ECU will compensate, and the engine will run fine.
Did you release the tension? The intake looks like it is straining pretty hard. But a release will not move the cam a full tooth.
Yes, you need to reset the timing. But first you need to find that hairline crack that Volvo calls a crank timing mark.
I am still puzzled by the slow cranking. With the plugs out, the crank should turn 'easily' by hand. PO didn't run out of oil did he?
Klaus
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Two good Volvos, a 220 and a V70R
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Hey, pile it on, doesn't hurt anything at this point. Now if something gets brought up after I put it all back together.... ;-)_)
I did not release the tension with 90 degrees forward, then back. In fact, I didn't even attempt to find TDC, just got cam pulleys lined up to marks for a visual. Looking at both pics, now that you mention it, the exhaust looks like it's straining as well. I ran out of time last night, and yes, still need to find that crank mark.
I don't understand the slow cranking either. Perhaps entire setup is off by more than a single tooth on one pulley, say off two exhaust teeth and one intake?
How many teeth off does either need to be, before valve/piston collision?
If PO ran out of oil, it was not mentioned. It was listed on CL one day for almost 4x what it was listed for the next day. That would seem to support the "was running, stalled, now won't start" story I got.
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Optimist - half full, Pessimist - half empty, Engineer - The capacity is twice what it needs to be.
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No release that I know of.
Another idea if you're crunched on time try unscrewing the gauge from the compression tester and feel it to determine if its filling up/emptying as it should of if something else is up..
If you don't have access to leak down tester, try just flooding the cylinder with compressed air while its at TDC and check throttle body/ pvc/ and exhaust side for air leak. you'll probably want to verify the exhaust and intake valves are working by rotating the engine with the air on..
So as I work over your problem I'm going back and forward with your cams and your valves being responsible. The more it sounds like a valve problem the more unrealistic i think it is that all five would go at the same time.
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Hmm. If you crank the engine without the gauge on but the hose screwed in air should be coming out and going in depending on the stroke. It should be moving swift enough that you can feel it (though I guess if you're hand turning the crank you might not notice it).
The timing belt cover, its not necessary to be on while you crank, correct? Can you have helper crank while you verify both camshafts are turning?
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Its just lovely that its off a tooth. Only makes your job that much harder.
I don't think one tooth is enough to cause serious damage but I don't know on that. You might get lucky and by doing a really accurate and meticulous timing belt job you fix everything. I just wonder how it jumped one.. How was the belt tension when you pulled it off?
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I think it's just about impossible for these timing belts to 'jump' considering the deep teeth on the belt and pulleys... unless the tensioner is really adjusted poorly, it should stay put.
I'd be willing to wager it was simply installed incorrectly.
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1998 V70 AWD->FWD Turbo 200k+
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Belt has not been removed yet, ordering new belts today.
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Optimist - half full, Pessimist - half empty, Engineer - The capacity is twice what it needs to be.
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IIRC the cam pulleys are fastened by 3 bolts, so there's no way the pulley could be turning and not turning the cam. Maybe someone else can verify this?
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1998 V70 AWD->FWD Turbo 200k+
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