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Inline 5 vs. V-6 and I-6 850 95 T-5R

Ok, so I've read a lot of small comments on this message board about how the 5 cylinders are smoother than their 6 cylinder counterparts. Why is this? It sounds pretty counterintuitive to me just because of the whole odd number thing. the only explanation that I could come up with is that on a six cylinder, you have opposing torque being applied at each end of the engine (ie. cylinder 1 is going up while cylinder 6 is going down). Does this make any sense? please clarify this for me, it's been bugging me for quite a while. Thanks!

Alex








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    Re: Inline 5 vs. V-6 and I-6 850 95 T-5R



    I am going to go out on a limb here and say that many years ago when consulting for an auto business one task was looking at future engine specs for their FWD platforms. The I6, V6, and I5 were considered. My memory isn't all it could be given the timeframe, however the I5 delivers a harmonic of one higher magnitude than the I6. This combined with the even firing interval for the crank config made the engine very smooth. It also provided a good balance of bore spacing vs engine width (trans space being critical)

    The end choice was an I6 purely because the marketing viewpoint won and trans engineers said they could do a compact box). The 90deg V6 was a nightmare except if offered manufacturing modularity for future expansion into larger engines.

    For an ultimate affirmation of the I6 however, look at truck engines. These have worst case scenario for vibes etc due to reciprocating masses (some are now at 17litres and 650hp) and are almost exclusively I6s. Higher end are now returning back to V8s.

    Now, if only I could find my calcs for the I5???








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    The I6 vs. V6, The Real Deal! (Very Long) ALL ALL

    Inline-6 vs. V6, the real deal!

    The I-6 and V12 are the only "naturally balanced" engines configurations. The Inline-6 is definetely making a comeback. Check out the all new 4.2 liter GM Vortec Inline-6. It has 270hp/257lb.ft of torque. It has been getting rave reviews thus far. The 2.8 liter twin-turbo Inline-6 in the Volvo S80 T6 and the new 3.0 liter Inline-6 in the new BMW 330i and 530i are all marvelous engines.

    The I-6 engine is balanced end-to-end and requires no balancer shaft. The vertical and transverse forces generated by the individual cylinders, no matter first order or second order, are completely balanced by one another. The resultant vibration is nearly zero, thus the Inline-6 is virtually a perfect configuration. The Inline-6 is not the only configuration can deliver near perfect refinement, but it is the most compact one among them.

    All Boxer engines are perfectly balanced, but they are two wide and require duplicate of blocks, heads and valve gears. This results in less efficiency versus an Inline-6. V12 engines also achieve perfect balance, but are obviously out of the reach of most mass production cars. Automotive engineers knew that long ago, that’s why you can see most of the best classic engines were Inline-6, such as the Rolls-Royce Silver Ghost, Bentley Speed Six, Mercedes SSK, many Bugattis, Jaguar XK-series and BMW’s and Volvo's various models.

    As space efficiency becomes more and more important, most car makers favour the V6. The most influential V6 was perhaps Alfa Romeo’s 2.5-litre 60° V6 used in the GTV6. It established a reputation for a V6 that it can be compact, powerful, and smooth. An equivalent inline-6 would have never fit the small and sloping engine compartment of that car. Compare the shape of a BMW with an Alfa and you’ll know the packaging advantages of a V6.

    When comparing a 60° or 90° V6, it is important to realize that they have somewhat end-to-end vibration like 3-cylinder engines. The is especially true for the 90° V6. It needs a counter-rotating single balancer shaft, at crank speed, to suppress the vibration. The balancer shaft is located inside the V-valley, so it is not space engaging. On the other hand, the 90° V6 has a decisive advantage in a production point of view. It can be machined in a V8’s production line because both of them are 90°. Unlike a V6, a V8 can only be optimised at 90°. This saves a lot of production cost. An example is Mercedes’ fairly smooth 2.4 to 3.2-litre V6s, which share the same architecture with their V8s, but added with a balancer shaft.

    Inline-6 engines are nearly impossible to be used in front-wheel drive cars as well. Even a car as wide as Volvo S80 had to introduce the world’s shortest gearbox in order to make space for the 2.9-litre Inline-6 mounted transversely in the engine compartment. Longitudinal mounted Inline-6 doesn’t have such problems, but it engages too much space in north-south direction, thus engage some space which would have contributed to cockpit room.

    However, BMW and Volvo are still loyal to Inline-6 engines. Ultimately, the Inline-6 engine is more efficient yet smoother. The V6 has more energy loss because it duplicates valve gears and camshafts, which increases frictional loss, while the use of 2 cylinder banks leads to more heat loss. In terms of production cost, although a V6 has 3 fewer main bearings, it has more valve gears, which is getting more and more costly these days, with the introduction of twin-cam, hydraulic tappets/finger follower, and variable valve timing. The Inline-6 is going to be cheaper than equivalent V6. The volumetric size versus horspower and torque of a well designed Inline-6 will always be better than a well designed 60°or 90° V6.

    SwedeSpeed

    -DrewSRX








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    Re: Inline 5 vs. V-6 and I-6 850 95 T-5R

    Alex,

    I don't recall anyone claiming 5 cylinders as the smoothest. It is pretty much agreed in the auto world that inline sixes are pretty much the smoothest and most reliable of engines around. Just look at BMW for example and there use of inline sixes...








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      Re: Inline 5 vs. V-6 and I-6------ SORRY! Clarification! 850 95 T-5R

      Oops, ok, I can be absent minded sometimes. maybe what I was refering to was the inline 4 engine. same idea of even, balanced number of cylinders vs. an odd number. why is the I-5 smoother than an I-4? Thanks a lot. Oh, and why is it smoother than a V-6? Sorry about all these silly questions.

      Alex








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        Explanation (long) 850 95

        The I-4 engine fires every 180 degrees. For instance, #1 is firing when #4 is filling. Likewise it suffers from free forces of the second order (inertial force dependant on rotating mass,crank radius, rod/throw ratio and 2xcrank angle); translation, the engine wants to shake up and down. Some manufacturers use counterbalance shafts to help with these forces. But ultimately it is not a very smooth engine.

        I-5 engines fire every 144 degrees. That is the main reason why they are smoother. However I-5's suffer from free moments of the first and second order. This means the engine wants to rotate about the centerline of the car and also rotate about the vertical axis. If large enough the free moments will rock the body of the car from side-to-side, full size pick-up trucks do this alot when you hit the gas in neutral. This is why many people (myself included) buy a replacement torque bushing for the upper engine attachment. The free moments rip the bushing apart as it ages and becomes brittle.

        I-6 engines (flat 6 in Porsches too) fire every 120 degrees and do not suffer from any inertial problems. It is an inherently balanced design.

        V-6 engines come in two angles, 60 and 90 degrees. The 90 degree variant is made on the same assembly line as V-8 engines. 90 degree engines fire at 150/90 degrees. This means 1 cylinder fires at 150 degrees of crank rotation then the next 90 degrees later (repeat twice). Like the I-5 it suffers from first and second order free moments. So it should run about as smoothly as an I-5. Aside: I think Mercedes uses a counterbalance shaft to absorb/reduce the effects of these free moments. The 60 degree v-6 fires every 120 degrees. Based on this it should give power delivery similarly to the I-6. But this v-6 suffers from first and second order free moments (much bigger than all of the other mentioned previously).

        As a final note: my fathers 15 year old BMW with over 400,000 miles is smoother than the I-4 Saab I bought when the saab was new. Of course the 850 was smoother than the BMW but not much.








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          Re: Explanation (long) 850 95

          Good explanation. When GM came out with their 90 deg V6 in the 70's, they had to use a very strange distributor lobe to get it to run. Later, they adopted offset crank journals to achieve a much smoother running engine. I supose those hydraulic engine mounts helped as well.

          5 cyl's are unbalanced but can be made acceptable by adding enough damping.








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        Re: Inline 5 vs. V-6 and I-6------ SORRY! Clarification! 850 95 T-5R

        I4 engines have extremely large second-order vibrations which give them the shakes. As far as V engines go, there is an ideal angle for the cylinders which results in maximum smoothness. For V6s, that angle is 60deg. 60deg V6s are very smooth. Many manufacturers make 90deg V6s, however, which are unbalanced, unless the crank journals are offset. 90deg is the 'magic' angle for a V8.

        The smoothest engines are I6 - they have absolutely no first or second order harmonics to cause problems. And V12s, which are just two I6s together, are smooooth too.








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          Re: Inline 5 vs. V-6 and I-6------ SORRY! Clarification! 850 95 T-5R

          How about our I-5? Do we have very servere first or second order harmonics?








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            Re: Inline 5 vs. V-6 and I-6------ SORRY! Clarification! 850 95 T-5R

            See Jeff's post. This is a better explanation than I can give.








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    Re: Inline 5 vs. V-6 and I-6 850 95 T-5R

    No 5 cyl of any manufacturer is smoother than an I-6 or a 60 deg V6. 5 cyl's fire every 72 degrees. 4 cyl's are also unbalanced. 90 deg. V6's are also unbalanced unless the crank journals are offset to compensate for the inherent odd firing order.

    My 965's engine is as smooth as silk.








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      Re: Inline 5 vs. V-6 and I-6 850 95 T-5R

      I'll assume then that you've not seen/worked on or owned an 850 or newer Volvo 5 cyl car? They're just as smooth as the six cyl engine.








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        Re: Inline 5 vs. V-6 and I-6 850 95 T-5R

        Impossible. But the engine vibration is damped by the mounts. Additional body structural damping helps as well. Sound deadening material is used to cut down on the noise. You must be used to it by now.

        BTW, I would like to get a T5-R to replace my 744Ti. I expect you would recommend it?









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          Re: Inline 5 vs. V-6 and I-6 850 95 T-5R

          Have you seen one idle? I've seen many and they're definately as smooth as the 6 cyl version (far smoother than the old 4 cyl engines, no comparison). Volvo knows how to build 5 cyl's, that all.

          I'd recommend a T5-R too, why not?









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          Re: Inline 5 vs. V-6 and I-6 850 95 T-5R

          I don't know if I would recommend it. Actually, I'm not quite sure I'd buy another volvo after this one goes (which should be soon as it's for sale if you're interested). they're quirky unique cars which is why I like it, and I like working on it, but compared to some of the other cars I'm looking at, I just couldn't justify buying another. but hey, whatever floats your boat right? everyone here seems to love them. I guess mine is a love hate relationship and the love is great but the hate is just causing me too many problems which I just don't have the time or money to deal with. help you at all? good luck

          Alex

          Oh, and thanks to everyone for answering my I-5 vs. I/V6 you guys were all most helpful








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            Re: Inline 5 vs. V-6 and I-6 850 95

            ...I Own a '95 T-5R...It's Smooooth...Maybe some "Engineer Types" would Not Agree...But, Those Guys Live in "Another World"







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