posted by
someone claiming to be Hugh
on
Tue Dec 14 20:27 CST 2021 [ RELATED]
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Hello All,
I am reposting this query, because I am changing the question(s)/issue (s) I would like to receive advice and comments to. I purchased new, a red 1996 850 GLT wagon with a 5 speed manual in April of 1996. That was the first Volvo my wife and I purchased shortly after we got married. My 3 girls all learned how to drive a stick on it. The youngest girl, who is 4 years younger than the red 850, drives it on campus at William & Mary College in Williamsburg, VA. She was allowed to take that Volvo, because I knew none of her friends would borrow it because they wouldn't know how to drive a stick. I was right. Recently (with 430,000 miles, original engine and transmission, the check engine light came on and the car ran rough, like there was a misfire or it was running on only 4 cylinders. A local garage did a compression test and found that cylinder #1 only had 20 psi compression while the rest of the cylinders were fine. With the fuel injector to cylinder # 1 disconnected, my daughter drove the red 850 440 miles back to CT, where it presently rests. I assume the dead cylinder is due to a failed exhaust valve. This has not been confirmed yet with the removal of the head. I see several options:
1) Obtain a used engine. I am limited to late 1995 850, 1996-1997 850s and the 1998 S/V models. All of these engines are over 20 years old. Some I have seen listed at salvage yards have between 150,000 to 300,000 miles (a lot are over 200,000). The idea of putting a used engine with that type of mileage doesn't make sense to me. I have no idea how they were maintained and what their present condition is? Regardless of their condition, I will have to pay the labor to have my old engine removed, and the replacement installed. A significant expense. This uncertainty of the quality of a used engine causes me concern. If anyone can suggest a reputable salvage yard where I can find reliable, low mileage used engines please share it with me.
2) See if I can find a company that sells remanufactured Volvo 850 engines. A local garage here in CT had a vendor in NJ that it would purchase remanufactured Volvo engines from, that arrived in a crate and were installed into customer's Volvos. Unfortunately, that vendor in NJ has gone out of business and the local garage has not been able to find an alternative source of remanufactured Volvo engines. Does anyone in the Brickboard community know of reputable companies that sell remanufactured Volvo 850 engines?
3) I have the engine rebuilt by my local garage. The engine block would be disassembled and the head and other components would be sent out to a machine shop. Internal components would be replaced. I have been told that cost would be between $6,000 to $7,000. Of course, this would eliminate any of the uncertainty of using a used engine.
4) I have told my local mechanic, that prior to the valve failing, I noticed that when I was accelerating from a dead stop, I would see blue smoke coming out of the exhaust. Once the car reached cruising speed, the smoke went away. I assumed it meant the piston rings were worn. He said not necessarily. When he removes the head, he may discover the oil seals may be worn and cracked from age - they are original. If the smoke is due to worn oil seals and not piston rings, he recommends just fixing the valves and oil seals and leaving the lower half of the engine untouched. In his experience (over 25 years) he has only seen issues with the upper half (the head) of the 850 engine. If blue smoke is due to worn oil seals, he recommends doing a valve job only and leaving the rest of the engine alone. That would spare me a significant expense. I welcome comments on this plan of action.
5) The last choice is just to sell the car and cut my losses. Of course, just before the valve failed, I invested $2,000 in this car between unrelated mechanical repairs and new tires (the repairs were driven by regular maintenance dictated by the mileage - no catastrophic failures). Still the timing kills me.
Well folks, I welcome all suggestions and comments. I hope with your help to make the "right" decision.
Hugh
shop
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Hugh - Check your car carefully for body rot.
Even if uou have to pay a small amount to have the car put on a lift. A body shop might be best.
I drove a 1996 855R for 11 years and loved that car every minute. It was 14 years old when we traded it in for a used XC 70 at a Lincoln dealer. When I talked to the used car supervisor, he told me that it was going to the auction - I told him to take it for a ride and boot it when entering a highway. That car would pull strongly from 40 to 140 MPH!
They had it on their lot for a month and then a guy from Nantucket Island called me and told me he had my car. Ha, Ha, a Volvo 855R on an island with a maximum 30 MPH speed limit!
I traded the car because it had serious rot in the front of the right rear wheel well, there was actually a 2-inch hole in the door frame.
Good luck with your quest.
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posted by
someone claiming to be Hugh
on
Sun Dec 26 18:01 CST 2021 [ RELATED]
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James,
Thank you for your reply. I came across an email from a friend who owns an old car (not a Volvo) but he is a "Car Guy". At that time I was corresponding about the possibility that my over 850 wagon, a silver 1996 850 GLT wagon with at the time 325,000 miles, (today it is at 365,000 miles) might require a rebuilt engine or a used one. Fortunately, the underlying problem was address that required neither remedy. But my friend said that I suffered from "OCD", just like he did, which didn't stand for "Obsessive Compulsive Disorder" but instead "Old Car Disorder" which basically means, you own a car for so long, that you just can bring yourself to part with it, and you begin to invest money to "preserve it" that just doesn't make sense. I may be at that stage now. James, to my knowledge the body of the car is is very good shape, and it presents well. People are shocked when they learn it has 430,000 miles on it and it looks so good. Prior to the burnt valve, I was (an still am) in love with this car. I am tempering that emotion. I hope I make the right decision in what I decide to do with this car. I do have a lot of emotional attachment to it, but I am not immortal, and neither is it. With your comments and advice and that of others who have responded, I think I will make the right decision in the end. Happy New Year to all who have responded to my query.
Hugh
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Hi Hugh,
I agree with the assumption that it is a bad valve.
The compression being down to only 20 psi is not just bad rings. They still seal some even broken.
Of course with 430,000 miles the engine is no spring chicken!
The cars engine has had a very good run and the octane of the gasoline used had nothing to do with its present condition.
You just had a less energetic engine with a slight smear in mileage to go along with the lack of an investment.
It was Not as smooth pulling and showed less of an ease of starting up cold. The starter had to turn over more and therefore it has more wear than an engine that got some money spent in the tank.
No big deal for a declared penny watcher, you know you bought what you justified.
Life in your lane! (:)
During the compression test the mechanic should have squirted some engine oil on top of the piston.
This would temporarily seal the cylinder rings as the oil cannot pass that quickly down past them.
The sealing should instantly raise the psi up to about or over 100 psi until the oil is ejected after several pumps. Many time it will equal the other cylinders if nothing else is wrong!
The compression test is very definitive for the lower end and if the valves are working at all.
With that pushing back up to the valves or a head issue you might need a new head if a valve seat dropped/cracked.
An inspection is required and going with a head with lower milage or restored is probably the going to be the minimum requirement.
The other valves are the at same age of pounding these many miles!
Since you made your penny wise decisions to put in the $2k not to long ago, you already turned into the driveway from your life’s lane. The car must be worthy and the family is like minded economically?
To park it or just visit in this driveway, is a good question!
This very well could only be a head problem, for you and the car!
You didn’t get this far without taking care of the car. Are you feeling that the cars drivetrain is solid enough for another 100,000? That’s about all you are going get out of any other newer or even used domestic/import economy car.
Only you know what you really have and where you sit with the cars future.
You mentioned timing and I will say it been a good marriage so far. Are you feeling lucky?
So far you have not done too bad with your experiences and the Volvo experiment! It was their first FWD experiment that they said they were going to stay away from back when the RWD’s were their bread and butter.
Some later model years have mixed reviews and are not such a bargain in many cases. Too many gadgets and they are not the solid car company they once were, IMHO.
I’m a 6 car 240 man so I’m prejudice, no doubt!
Many of my spare parts are all in rolling mode!
Many will interchange as they go bye bye!
What would you do with six cars and a whole bunch more stuff, but no children?
I have been lucky too!
(:-)
Phil
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posted by
someone claiming to be Hugh
on
Fri Dec 17 13:40 CST 2021 [ RELATED]
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Phil,
Thank you for your advice. You should be philosopher or at least and advice columnist for "gearheads". I would be your most avid reader. The red 850 is in very good shape otherwise. Since I took delivery of it 25 years ago, I have carefully maintained it. I have changed the oil and oil filter every 5,000 miles, even though Volvo recommended oil changes at 10,000 mile intervals. I am also very fortunate to know a competent and honest mechanic who specializes in Volvos. He has helped me to maintain the red Volvo over the years in many ways. If I fix the red 850, I think I could get another 100,000 miles out of it. The only other big ticket issue I see, is the catalytic converter going. Replacing that will be a nightmare. It is no longer sold by Volvo and purchasing a used one from a salvage yard is dicey and purchasing a new aftermarket unit comes with substantial risk too. Phil thank you for you advice and insights. You and the others who have responded have helped me significantly as I decide what to do.
Hugh
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Hi Hugh,
Gee such kind words, but an Ann Landers for “gear-heads.”
I think that would NOT be something achievable in a “use it up and get another” mind set car world.
Nice thinking from you though, thanks!
The future is bringing forth a bunch of turmoil throughout the transportation industry.
The newest Volvo lineup has even got the China “Geely” rethinking their position with the Swedes. China is going to control many aspects of electric car manufacturing worldwide with tentacles!
Values are to be irrational as they have been for the last eight months!
You seem to be a person that has cultivated deep appreciation for this cars qualities.
It is admirable that your past efforts have paid back handsomely and to what’s going to happen in the next ten years, this car may float your daughter through the transition.
Time moves faster than one realizes and the daughter is probably close to graduating. That changes the work load on the car significantly.
Your mechanic seems very rational in his diagnosis and recommendations.
Did he do the compression testing?
Is he heavily into knowing about these FWD engine transmission combinations and have any track records with customers to do this work?
Research more for good rebuild outcomes where ever you can.
As far as a head, they can be remanufactured with decent quality for $600, I would hope!
They buy them for about the value of the aluminum from the recyclers.
Complete engines with testing certification are just as marketable.
I’m a little leery of businesses in Florida State, I have to say! Look for ratings with certifications, if possible.
Shop carefully!
You seem trusting of him as much as you trust this car to be worthy of all these thoughts?
I’m I reading this right?
As far as the emissions of a catalytic converter requirements, that might be something you can get a deferment for, due to the cars age and no factory provided parts.
The manufacturers limited their liabilities with miles and years, why not you?
It’s an “item to be present” issue at this juncture by law interpretations.
You should fall into a historical purpose category in your state. They All have something! Study!
In my experiences, a well tuned engine doesn’t need a converter most of the time to pass gas emissions. You only need good compression to start!
Hard acceleration and rapid rpm fluctuations dump uncontrollable burns for converters to clean up after!
I brought a car into California from Oregon that passed emissions and its converter was gutted, unknown to me, until way later! The engine started instantly and ran smooth before and during the test. In my county, it only had to pass upon entry to the state, as the county is exempt due to location.
Check yours states regulations over carefully for arbitration rules!
They have monetary limitations that are considered there!
I surely hope you can reach a decision and run into some good people in the process!
There is a good start here anyways!
Phil
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posted by
someone claiming to be Hugh
on
Sat Dec 18 18:16 CST 2021 [ RELATED]
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Phil,
Thank you for sharing your thoughts. I am keeping my mind open at I approach this problem. In my heart, I want to hold onto this red 850. 25 years since purchasing it, it still presents well and has been well maintained over the years. It is a "working" car, used day in and day out. I'm bracing myself for the cost of having the engine rebuilt, but I am also hopeful, that if the piston rings are not worn, maybe I can get away with just having the valves redone. My local mechanic has not examined the engine yet. The compression test was performed at another private garage located in Williamsburg, VA. To flush out my options, I will look around for a low mileage used engine, with a credible history. If I can't find one, and the piston rings are worn, then a full rebuilt make by the decision I make. Before I bring the car to my private garage, I am going to see if I can find good used engine to have it at the ready. The true condition of the engine
and the options available to me will not be revealed until the head is removed. Fortunately, I have spare Volvos, so I can take my time in getting the red 850 examined and fixed. It will be a "journey" and an "experience" for me. If I can get the red 850 fixed, I would not be adverse to driving it past the 500,000 mark and hopefully beyond. It's just a nice Volvo that is pleasure to drive and to look at. My daughter tells me how it draws compliments on campus all the time because of its age, appearance and the color red. I'll keep a positive outlook.
Hugh
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Hi Hugh,
Yes, I think you are approaching this endeavor in a correct way.
In my rummaging around on the board there has been a lot of references made towards an outfit down in Atlanta, Georgia called; http://www.voluparts.com/
A few Bricksters have dealt with them and from what I read, the words are giving favorable results across the whole spectrum of Volvo cars models?
Mostly it’s for hard to find tiny parts of a last resort nature. The place might be huge and into recovery and recycling?
Put them on your list to check out.
Ring their bell and talk personally with them and feel them out.
I have not had any dealings with them but I keep registering up posts in my memory, on different tabs on the Brickboard and have no idea how much business they do?
Maybe they can offer you more options beyond our way of thinking?
You know in the way of a heads used or even rebuilders of engines.
Even kick-in the idea of a complete replacement unit, wheel to wheel.
A lot less hours of labor that way!
The Bolt-In-FWD designs were ripe for the manufacturers. Why not for you, since the rest of the car is great!
It’s just a thought fir another good engine setup, to take care of, for 2-300,000 miles? 👀👍
Phil
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posted by
someone claiming to be Hugh
on
Mon Dec 20 12:40 CST 2021 [ RELATED]
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Phil,
You and me think alike. I did put a call into them as soon as I received the diagnosis of a possible burnt valve. I have purchased parts from Voluparts on multiple occasions. It has helped me obtain parts that Volvo doesn't sell anymore. I have spoke to Melvin, Jesse and Bill Eidson the owner on numerous occassions. Bill asked the phone when I called to see if he had any used 850 engines. Sadly he did not and told me I will be hard pressed to find one because of the number years that have passed and the fact I am limited to:late year 1995 850s, 1996-97 850s and 1998 S/V70s. So far, though I have not given up looking, he is right. The bulk of the 850 engines I have come across have north of 200,000 miles on them. But I have not given up.
Hugh
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If I had storage space, I would buy your car - I love having a clutch!
Have your mechanic pull the spark plug and use a bore scope to take a look at the valve and cylinder. He could look at all 5 and get a better diagnosis.
At a minimum, you are looking at head removal, multiple valve replacement and valve seat repair. Figure $800-1000 for "out of car" repair costs JUST for the head.
Fortunately, this is not a turbo so less work involved in head removal and put back.
There is an outfit that specializes in head repair:
https://www.cylinder-heads.com/automotive-cylinder-heads/volvo/?gclid=Cj0KCQiAweaNBhDEARIsAJ5hwbdMm6_VpXbqN197bXnsm4iLdQiI_wC-tvdWI0jCcGpSBmDCXmMijI4aAozjEALw_wcB
You might want to E-mail them and see if they still do heads for Volvos. They claim to replace all 20 valves, valve seats, flatten the block side, etc. Used to be $800, who knows how much now?
--
Keeping it running is better than buying new
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posted by
someone claiming to be Hugh
on
Fri Dec 17 13:13 CST 2021 [ RELATED]
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Klaus,
Thank you for this recommendation. I would not have found this shop on my own. I read some of their "testimonials" and not surprisingly they are all favorable. That doesn't mean they are not true. Have you had any dealings with them, or do you know anyone who has dealt with them? This information could be a helpful option.
Hugh
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Hugh, it has been over 10 years since I have heard from someone who used this service. I don't even now if they have a 2.4L head that is Naturally Aspirated. The only way to find out is using the phone with them.
CT is an expensive state as far as mechanics charge, most of New England is. Nothing you do will be 'cheap'. At least you don't need to tow it anywhere, 4 cyl works pretty good.
--
Keeping it running is better than buying new
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posted by
someone claiming to be Hugh
on
Fri Dec 17 22:05 CST 2021 [ RELATED]
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Klaus,
Thanks. Yes, 4 cylinders do move the 850. My daughter drove it 440 miles back from Williamsburg to CT. My mechanic said the 850 should be able to handle the drive, if she didn't push the car to hard. She didn't. But my mechanic also said, I can't continue to drive the car long term on 4 cylinders. I have to make a decision going forth.
Hugh
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