I own a 1998 V70 T-5 (manual) that I picked up at the factory in Sweden. Loved it. Took it only to authorized Volvo dealers, no matter where we lived (US, Italy, Germany). Did every maintenance required. Fixed everything I was told to.

15 June: On vacation. Mass Air Flow sensor goes. Car dies immediately. Towed to shop and fixed, picked up 3 days later.

Next day (still on vacation), traveling to VA on I-95, notice the thermostat is hot. Keep an eye on it. Pull over to let car cool off. Drive w/o A/C. Call Volvo dealer in VB, VA. Limp car into VB. They replace the thermostat kit and IAT sensor.

Running great, have 120K tune-up accomplished on 9 July in VA before returning to AL. All is fine.

12 August: Car dies again, towed to shop. Mass Air Flow sensor bad again, replaced under warranty.

17 August: See oil leaking under car. Take to dealer. Head is broken. Decide to fix it. Costs $3700+ but figure it's cheaper than a new car. Pick up 30 Sept (they're not fast around here...).

4, 8 & 20 October: Took in because I heard a strange noise. Kind of sounded like pop corn popping. Dealer never heard it. They flushed the system again since there was still gunk in it.

21 Oct: Drove 5 hours to TN (on vacation again). Zero problems.

22 Oct: Drove on to Evansville, IN. Almost made it to my destination. Coolant light flickered on twice, then stayed on. I grabbed my book and it told me to pull over, top off coolant and get car to authorized dealer. I pulled into a Midas shop. Opened hood and coolant was spurting all over and flowing from the bottom. Towed to Volvo dealer.

Diagnosis: head broken....3 weeks and 1 day after I just paid $3700 to have it replaced. They also think the engine is ruined and know that a turbo coolant hose burst (4 inch rubber hose).

Local dealer unwilling to bring car here at their expense to fix it. Say the turbo hose bursting caused catastrophic damage to the car and broke the head. So, basically, "too bad".

We don't trust the car any longer, and will buy a new one, but what should we do regarding this one?

1. Walk away? We feel local dealer now has $3700 that we paid to fix the car and now we have a worthless (literally!), broken car.

2. Fight local dealer?

3. Donate it?

4. Find someone to buy it?

Can a turbo hose burst really cause catastrophic damage like that? From the time the coolant light flickered on I was off the road in about 3 minutes. I had been in traffic, so was not even using the turbo at that point. No other lights illuminated at that time. I watched the temp gauge like a hawk that whole trip and it never moved. Car was driving like a dream.

I've noticed that when the head was replaced they also replaced the thermostat kit, but NOT the IAT sensor. Should the sensor have been replaced as well?

Any ideas as to whether the original Mass Air Flow sensor could have triggered this whole chain of events or am I just unlucky?

Are turbo hoses checked at tune-ups or when a head is replaced? I've been told that a car can run with a burst turbo hose, that it just won't have turbo. Is this correct?

Any ideas? Thanks!!

looking at the catalogue of dispear it reminds me of a experience long ago with a mini ...very similar issues ended up beign a cracked head...

the point here is that something is presurising the system reatedly to the point where the weakest link goes pop.... sure the hose went but they should have changed such a low cost item KNOWING it had been stressed...if they recomended it but you said no then fair call...but they didnt!

Gretchen,

Where is your car now? First, I hope it is not back at the dealership unless they are paying to fix it. I'm all the way in Tallahassee, FL, so I truly don't know of anyone in the areas you asked about. However, Cartalk has a website called Mechanic X files, www.cartalk.com/ct/mechx. I typed www.ask.com to get zip codes for Evansville Indiana (47701), and Montgomery Alabama (36101). I'm not sure how correct they are, but...

The Auto Shop in Birmingham Alabama appears to have good comments, and works on Volvos.

Driver's Choice in Birmingham also has gets glowing reports. They apparently work on Saabs, so Volvos are no great stretch for them. Hell, if they can get glowing reports from Saab owners, they can almost walk on water.

Elliot's Service Center in Evansville apparently has a guy named Jack who is a Volvo guru; they got good comments.

Motors that I located, and you can too, are at www.car-part.com. You will want one WITH a turbo. Remember the turbo was also denyed coolant, also was lubed with "gunk", and also got quite hot. Atlantic in MA, 1-800-225-0812 has a motor/turbo w/96K for $1500.00. Erie Vo-Vo, 1-888-865-8613, who I have heard nothing but good things about, has one with 68K, for $2500.06. Incidentally, I think they offer a lifetime warranty on their parts when you pay that price. I'd also ask if they would throw in the coolant hoses.

You can expect to pay shipping; a reasonable mark up of appx 20% to the shop you choose, 18 hours (or so) of labor, and the cost of plugs, sensors, timing belt, fluids, filters, etc. For example, the cost here would be $4697.75 (which I would round down to $4500.) If you get the $3700.00 back from the dealership, you'll be doing great. You'll have a lower mileage motor and turbo, and a technician you can trust. At the very least, the dealership should offer to perform this same repair, and credit you the $3700.00 for what appears to be a misdiagnosis or gross negligience on someone's part.

Again, I hope this helps,

Chris

Chris,

Thanks for all of your help and investigative work. The car still sits in E'ville @ the volvo dealer there. I will keep you posted on what happens with all of this.

It sounds as if you think the car is salvageable - I really didn't think that would be possible.

We're on the weekend now, so nothing will happen again until Monday. Thanks again, Gretchen

Yes, I think the car is infinitely salvageable. I think your relationship with the dealership is not. In a prior post you said you didn't trust the car any longer. That's not where I would place my distrust. I think the car, properly diagnosed and repaired, will last you many more years and many many more miles, and will cost you MUCH less than a new car. I don't know what your budget looks like, but I tend to think less expense is better.

Chris

Chris,

Thanks for the words of wisdom. I loved my car and I think I'm still mourning it!! This gives me some hope...perhaps I should get it down to you in FL. We are not new car kind of people so this gives me hope. We'll see what happens. I'll keep you posted. Do you have an e-mail where I can reach you? Mine is: jeffhood@knology.net

Thanks so much,

Gretchen

Gretchen,

I think it would be wrong for me to benefit from assisting people with my over zealous opinions and smattering of Volvo intelligence on the brickboard. You don't know me from Adam! or his housecat! You can check us out at Mechanic X files on car talk (for some reason we are listed twice), as well as other shops that are closer to you. The only reason I know about that site is a new customer. Apparently, that is how he found us. I urge you to research your options, and speak with other shop owners and choose the one that you feel the most comfortable with. Tallahassee, FL would be quite the trek! I will be glad to assist you in any way that I can; My email address is voltech@nettally.com, or chrisjarvis62@msn.com.

Hang in there! You've got a car worth keeping,

Chris

Gretchen,

You have received excellent advice and support from members of this board.

Clearly you are being given the run-around by the dealer.

If you don't know an attorney, contact your state bar association for referrals.

Do this immediately. You don't want to compromise your position.

Bryan

You have indeed gotten excellent advice. Be sure to hire someone with auto knowledge. Also, keep in mind that you hired the shop to fix a problem, not work at your direction. It was they who decided what to repair and replace, not you. They made the choices and took your money. It is they who now need too take responsibility. Anything less is unsatisfactory. Best of luck.

Hi All,

We just met with the owner, general manager, head service guy & the regular service guy. They categorically maintain that everything they did was proper and that the bear no fault in the car and head failing. They blame everything on that 4" long turbo hose bursting. They will talk amongst themselves about bringing our car back here to Montgomery to do an autopsy...

Realize that if they're the ones doing the autopsy, that any evidence that might exist which could indicate that they're at fault will be lost/burried/denied or otherwise explained away. For that matter, even if there is conclusive evidence that they weren't at fault, you won't be able to accept that based on the obvious self-interest from "the coroner."

Bring that car to an independent mechanic. Even so, the indy might not want to get involved in the legal battle.

--
Jim Rothe, '99 S70 T5M,
http://www.jimrothe.com/volvo/index.html

The problem is, that I don't really trust the dealer in Evansville, IN to do it properly, either. Not that I don't think they're good people, I just question their experience on Volvo's in such a small market. I wish it was in Indy!

I asked about the IAS sensor and whether it was replaced or not (it wasn't listed as being replaced, just the temp kit was listed). We were immediately told that the IAS sensor is in the new head. True?

What Volvo calls an "IAT" (intake air temp) sensor is what was formerly referred to as an "ECT" (engine coolant temp) sensor. Yes, it sits in the head directly below the thermostat housing. Yes, it would have alerted you to an overheating problem, thus allowing you the time to stop the engine prior to causing irreversible damage. No, it does not come with a new head. Yes, it would have been compromised greatly by the first overheating, and should have been replaced. The part number in question is 9186486. If this number isn't on your repair order, it wasn't replaced.

As an independent repair shop, I still believe the fault lies with the dealer. If the hose were at fault, it had to have felt "squishy" when buttoning up the job. If the fault actually lies in the block not being true, the headgasket would have blown, and the weakest link would have failed, spewing coolant everywhere (in this case, the turbo hose). The block should have been thoroughly checked, considering, it too, is made of that very malleable metal we call aluminum. Unfortunately, there is no way to tell which came first

The dealership most likely has insurance to cover mishaps like this. Hell, I have insurance to cover mishaps like this. I'd never use it, because I would rather absorb the cost than have my rates go up, but the fact remains...if one of my guys messed up and didn't catch the weakest link...he'd be eating the labor, and I'd be eating the part. It's a small price to pay for a sterling reputation. You should probably ask them what price they would put on their reputation, and call an attorney!

Chris

Chris,

I had already checked on my work order and that part was NOT listed (it was listed on the work order from June in V.B.). I specifically asked them about the sensor today & the head service guy dismissed me and said it's included with the head. Argh!

They still maintain it was the turbo hose...they talked lots of "fluff" during the meeting today and I'm still not satisfied.

Do you know of any independent Volvo service guys in either Evansville, IN or Montgomery, AL? I asked them flat out why I should trust them once they see my car and they really couldn't answer me, but what were they going to say to that? If I do have it checked w/an indy person how does that hold up if we do call in an attorney? I just want the truth, want the dealership to own up. We can understand if there was human error...but we want them to have some customer service.

Thanks, Gretchen

Ummmm... you'll see the term "indy" used quite frequently on these automobile forums. It is not meant to mean "Indiana," but rather "independent." There's a very common belief among internet auto enthusiasts that an independent mechanic will show more concern about fixing your car right than the manufacturer's dealer network will.

--
Jim Rothe, '99 S70 T5M,
http://www.jimrothe.com/volvo/index.html

thanks for educating me...you can tell I'm a novice at this.

First, and foremost, and I've not read anyone else's responses, it was the tech's responsibility to check everything over prior to replacing the head. This includes checking the block with a level, and checking the block for leak down. Further, when a headgasket is blown, or the head cracks, and coolant and oil are mixed, the coolant hoses MUST be checked considering oil is disastrous to a coolant hose, particularly the smaller ones. It all comes down to pride in workmanship, and standing behind the work you complete. The dealer is responsible. Either the block was bad and they didn't catch it, or the coolant hose was compromised and they didn't catch it. Contact the dealer, tell them you are contacting your attorney, and go from there.

Chris

In our meeting today, they gave us a highlighted diagram of all 27 coolant hoses. Maintain it would have been excessively expensive to replace all of them. They circled the area that lists #10, #13, #6 & #6a as the area that failed. I'm not sure which hose actually blew.

~Gretchen

Gretchen,

Your gonna be tired of reading stuff from me before this is through...

I pulled up VADIS to get a picture of what you were looking at:

#10 is the expansion tank (where you put coolant)
#13 is the lower radiator hose
#6 is the radiator
#6a are the bushings on/in the radiator (basically fill the void where the transmission cooler lines would go if you had an automatic transmission)

I think that #17 is actually the hose that they are saying caused the dilemma. Another interesting note...when a cooling system is pressurized by...oh, let's say, perhaps...an irregularity in where the head meets the block, the first areas adversely affected by the compression leaking into the cooling system are the radiator, the coolant reservoir, and the hoses that attach to the coolant reservoir. This is exactly what was affected on your car. Truly, it's beginning to look more and more like your car needed a motor the first time around, and the dealership didn't catch it.

Chris

Chris,

I'm not tired of hearing from you...I'm ready to fly you here to represent us!

BTW, we did NOT replace the radiator. My husband felt that wouldn't need to be done. Obviously, they brought that up yesterday.

-Gretchen

They maintain it would have been too expensive to replace the hoses? Who was footing the bill? You were, right? Who is, in theory, is footing the bill this time? You again, right? Any competent technician knows the coolant hoses were compromised. Any competent technician would have advised the service writer and the service manager (who should know the same information) that they would like to replace the coolant hoses. At that time, you should have been phoned and given the option, to replace, or not to replace.

Further, you went back for basically what sounded like predetonation, or coolant boiling and popping in a closed system after the head was replaced. The fact that they flushed the system again because there was "gunk" in it, should have alerted them to the fact that maybe, just maybe, the original problem wasn't fixed (my theory). At any rate, the coolant hoses were, once again, compromised, and once again, you weren't given the option to replace the hoses.

As you speak with them, alert them to the fact that deciding the coolant hoses were too expensive to replace was NOT their decision to make. It was yours. By denying you the choice, they also denied you culpability. They made, what they considered to be, a RESPONSIBLE decision. They actually TOLD you that; they just offered you your winning hand. They made a decision on your behalf, and that decision just cost you a motor. Let your attorney run with that.

Personally, I think the block was toast before and they should have replaced the motor, not the head. If the head got hot enough to "crack" at an oil journal, it got "freakin" hot. I'd say there is little to no chance the block survived the first round, but again, that is my OPINION. What I think happened is this:

I suspect the car was overboosting, hence the problems with the air mass meter and such. Overboosting can take out the headgasket. Headgasket blows, head gets hot enough to crack at an oil journal, Boo-wam, Volvo replaces the head. You go back with your noise, and "gunk" instead of oil and coolant. I suspect the "seal" supplied by the headgasket is not "sealed" well. I "think" the block was warped, allowing compression into the cooling system, giving you your noise that they, in theory, didn't hear, and once again allowing for some mixing of fluids, giving you your "gunk". They flushed, you drove away. With time, the compression leakage into the cooling system, took out your weakened coolant hose, you lost coolant, you truly overheated, and now you are where you were before. It is ironic though, isn't it, that they now believe you need an entire motor? Doesn't it make you wonder if their thinking is following the same path as mine?

Hope this helps just a smidge,
Chris

It makes sense to me, and what do I know about cars?? A lot more than I ever wanted to, I can assure you!

Thanks so much... -g

I missed this part the first time I read your post:

4, 8 & 20 October: Took in because I heard a strange noise. Kind of sounded like pop corn popping. Dealer never heard it. They flushed the system again since there was still gunk in it.

There was "gunk" in your cooling system???? That explains why the thermostat didn't work properly, it was probably covered in "gunk"!

BTW, could you tell all of us here what the name of your dealer is? We don't want to go there!
--
98 V70Rawd(101Kmi), 95 854T(85K mi), 88 245(165K mi)

I'd be happy to share: Jack Ingram Motors in Montgomery, Alabama. If I can get everyone to avoid them, I'll be a bit happier.

We meet with the owner tomorrow...even after we said we'd purchase a new Volvo from them if they would make good on everything they've refused to bring the '98 back here. They insist that we should foot that bill. I'm ready to start picketing their dealership every morning at rush hour. Or, maybe I should pay to bring my car back and park it in front of their business with a sign saying "Incompetant Service Department". BTW, Volvo N.A. is backing them and has also left us high and dry. We've contacted Volvo Sweden...

An interesting point that you brought up was about the "popcorn noise" that you heard on three separate occasions. In all likehood, that "pinging" was detonation. Detonation can occur in an engine that is running too hot. This ties right in with your second mentioned service event -- replacing the thermostat. It also fits with the fact that you had TWO broken cylinder heads. Failed head gaskets are common enough results from over-heated engines, and a broken cylinder head is usually just a more extreme result of the same temperature control problems.

As for the turbo's water-cooling hose bursting: I think this was probably the RESULT of the overheating problems that you had experienced, and not the cause of them all. Clearly, there was a temperature control problem that you tried to get resolved at the beginning of this story, and you wouldn't have been driving around with a split/cracked/leaking/burst coolant line from 16 June to 22 October. Even a pinhole leak would not have resulted in two catastrophic head failures -- not without the coolant level sensor screaming at you quite frequently during this period.

I'm also seeing that, during the overheating event prior to the second head failure, that you were driving in traffic -- translation: hot engine, very little cooling system air flow -- and that you took three minutes to shut the car down after the coolant light went on. If the coolant had started to leak badly prior to the coolant light going on, then you could very well have been driving a hot engine for THREE MINUTES with little or no coolant reaching the head. Your delay in shutting down the engine might very well have cost you that second head.

What I'm still at a loss to explain is the connection, if any, between the INTERMITTENT overheating and detonation that you experienced and the mixture adjustment (MAF sensor) problems that the car apparently had. I'm convinced that there IS a connection between these two issues, and the dealer's replacement of the intake air temperature (IAT) sensor indicates that they were onto something with that, too. I also think that it's possible that a bad signal from the IAT (or a mis-installed replacement IAT) could have contributed to the overheating and detonation. (I said POSSIBLE, not probable.) The fact that the dealer replaced the MAF sensor twice, though, leads me to believe that there WAS, in fact, something going on that was fooling the MAF sensor. Intake or boosted air leaks can cause faulty readings by this sensor, and those may have prompted these two replacements. If there is anything that can cause a faulty MAF sensor reading AND overheating, then that would be worth further investigating.

Unfortunately, I add all of this up, and I come to no conclusive proof that the dealer did anything wrong that could have contributed to the head failures in this car. Sometimes a doctor can spot a heart attack or stroke precursor before an event happens, and sometimes they can't. Proving malpractice will be a difficult case.
--
Jim Rothe, '99 S70 T5M,
http://www.jimrothe.com/volvo/index.html

jrothe,

This engine section is sealed with a liquid gasket solution.

AFAIK if it is not done correctly--too much solution or sloppy application--the sealing liquid could clog the water orifices.

That the 2nd head failure occured very shortly after the installation of a new head should warrant an investigation to determine if that installation was done improperly and was the proximate cause of the subsequent failure.

Bryan

jrothe,

This engine section is sealed with a liquid gasket solution.

AFAIK if it is not done correctly--too much solution or sloppy application--the sealing liquid could clog the water orifices.

That the 2nd head failure occured very shortly after the installation of a new head should warrant an investigation to determine if that installation was done improperly and was the proximate cause of the subsequent failure.

Bryan

jrothe,

This engine section is sealed with a liquid gasket solution.

AFAIK if it is not done correctly--too much solution or sloppy application--the sealing liquid could clog the water orifices.

That the 2nd head failure occured very shortly after the installation of a new head should warrant an investigation to determine if that installation was done improperly and was the proximate cause of the subsequent failure.

Bryan

jrothe,

This engine section is sealed with a liquid gasket solution.

AFAIK if it is not done correctly--too much solution or sloppy application--the sealing liquid could clog the water orifices.

That the 2nd head failure occured very shortly after the installation of a new head should warrant an investigation to determine if that installation was done improperly and was the proximate cause of the subsequent failure.

Bryan

jrothe,

This engine section is sealed with a liquid gasket solution.

AFAIK if it is not done correctly--too much solution or sloppy application--the sealing liquid could clog the water orifices.

That the 2nd head failure occured very shortly after the installation of a new head should warrant an investigation to determine if that installation was done improperly and was the proximate cause of the subsequent failure.

Bryan

You only need to click the "submit message" button once. ;)

Kidding aside, you make a good point that is worthy of investigation. I'd like to have a digital camera handy while I look over the shoulder of my independent mechanic, as he removes the cylinder head from the block.

But we still have the issue of the initial overheating incident. The possibility of that having not been properly repaired should not be dismissed simply because we now have another theory to investigate as well.

--
Jim Rothe, '99 S70 T5M,
http://www.jimrothe.com/volvo/index.html

A couple of things...thermostats should be replaced at about 70,000 mile intervals,,,,whether they seem to be working or not. I don't think that's on Volvos maintenance list. Second...a bit late now, but I would have gone for a junk yard engine.

There is a lot of electronic stuff under the hood...and you cooked this car pretty good. When they get hot, something is seriously wrong...they already run hot.

I think you should get some satisfaction from the dealer who did the $3700 repair.

Hi All,

Sorry I wasn't clear about the turbo hose. It was 4" in length.

We think this all sounds very suspicious as well. Also, Volvo NA has closed our complaint case and we've contacted Volvo Sweden, too.

What does the warranty say for geniune Volvo replacement parts? I shouldn't think it would matter how the part broke, just that it broke again.

Thank you for your input....I'll keep you posted. We have a meeting tomorrow with the owner of the local Volvo place. Meanwhile, the Evansville dealership offered us a whopping $200 for my beloved car. :(

-ghood

PS - Any thoughts on whether that temp sensor should have been replaced when the temp kit was replaced? Could the sensor have been bad and the car overheated (both times) and ruined the head? I'm reaching for anything that makes sense, because that 4" hose sure doesn't...

And I hate, I mean really HATE dealing with lawyers!

1.) A Volvo dealer may warrant parts/repairs for 1 year. Look at the back of your service invoice.

2.) I've been driving Swedish iron for over 20 years and I wouldn't ever consider trying to deal with one out of warranty without a good indy shop or shops available. If I still wanted a Volvo, I'd just lease one and replace it every 3 years. Really, the dealers are just not a good idea for repairing older cars, they'll do stuff that just doesn't make sense on an old car, as you've seen.

3.) I wouldn't want to take one of these engines apart, as was mentioned elsewhere the head is actually glued together and there are many tiny passages. Volvo seems to do an OK job rebuilding them under controlled conditions at their factory in Sweden but the chances of getting everything together correctly on an internal engine repair done in a service bay at a typical dealer aren't nearly 100%, IMO.

4.) For $200, I'd buy it myself, tow it home and throw in a used engine and transmission. There are plenty available, the cars tend to wreck more often than the engines wear out, which is the best supply-demand equation for us.

5.) Absent a good indy Volvo shop, and absent a desire to lease and return a new Volvo every 3 years, I'd probably just buy a Toyota (Lexus) or Honda (Acura). Seriously, like most Volvo owners, I love the car but hate my dealer! Toyota or Honda dealers may not be any better but at least the cars don't break as often!

6.) I have the AAA "Plus" membership with 100 miles of free towing. I don't go much further away with my car. I've used it TWICE at nearly 100 miles in the last couple of years.

-BTC

'98 V70T5M, 151k mi.

ghood,

It all sounds very suspicious.

Usually an oil leak is the rear main seal and/or the turbo oil return line.

A "broken" head usually means that the timing belt has failed and the valves and pistons have shared the same space at the same time. This does not lead to a good outcome for an interference engine.

I don't see how a split turbo hose (4" diameter--to the intercooler?) would do anything except cause loss of boost and make the ECU crazy. Maybe the fan could be damaged if pieces flew into it. The "popping" sound may have been a tiny air leak prior to total failure of the hose.

If you mean the coolant line (4" length?), then the turbo might sieze and fail--shouldn't trash the engine.

Water under the engine could mean that the lower radiator hose burst. Again, if you pulled over immediately and stopped the engine, there should not be permanent damage.

Find an indy mechanic or another dealer to check the car.

Then, contact you attorney general's consumer fraud division. It sounds like you may have to confront the dealership on its mechanic's diagnosis and repair of your car.

Bryan

Just because dealers and I don't like each other, I would have my lawyer call their lawyer. I would not expect any compensation, except for the look of angst on the dealers face. A turbo hose "shouldn't" break the head. The dealer should stand by his contract to fix the head and install it correctly the second time, there is no gasket and if the block/new head didn't align perfectly - pop!
Because it is at a dealership now, let the KY dealer talk to your dealer about who should repair the head. The turbo hose is still your problem, sorry. A 1998 T5 is worth about 7-8,000 depending on condition. With out engine or turbo, about 1,500.
Klaus
--
98 V70Rawd(101Kmi), 95 854T(85K mi), 88 245(165K mi)

I try to avoid my Volvo dealer after warranty for everything but parts ... and new cars! (I do have a tame indy Volvo shop nearby.) (FWIW I had my wife's Honda at the Honda dealer on Friday, and they're no better than Volvo dealers.)

There are lots of SVC70 turbo engines around. I'd have gone for a used engine on a car with that many miles in the first place. In fact, the whole engine/transmission/subframe assembly will bolt right in.

The rest of the story seems a little fishy. I suppose the turbo could grenade if the coolant hose broke, but wouldn't most of the shrapnel be filtered out in the intercooler???? I'd get an autopsy by a shop that didn't do the first work.

I do know that the car will run with the turbo hose off, because mine ran when the intercooler/radiator sandwich exploded when I ran over a truck tire. It ran like crap, but it ran.

-BTC

'98 V70T5M, 151k mi.