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We have a major problem with our 1996 850GLT. We had the timing belt replaced at 110K miles last February at a local maintenance shop (they have serviced all our different models of cars in the past and seemed to always do a good job). Then, a month later, the belt broke. The shop owner told us that we must pay for it because the timing belt was not faulty - he said a piece had shredded off another belt, lodged around the camshaft, and caused the belt to break (which seemed strange since all the other belts were new on the car too). We paid for replacement of the engine with a 70K mile used engine, and they put a new timing belt in it and warrantied the whole works for 10K miles.
Now, while still under warranty, the timing belt has jumped and caused terminal engine damage again. This time the shop is absorbing the cost of replacement.
This makes us very nervous and we are considering just selling the car. Has anyone heard of such a problem, or have any idea what might be causing it? It's too much of a coincidence!
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The only commonality I see here is the shop you use.
But there are too many pieces of unreliable information here.
The 110K engine was replaced with a 70K engine. How do you know it was 70K? who told you? Did you have any proof of that mileage?
Likely, the 70K engine came from a car with 100K+ and had never had it's timing belt changed.
Or, is it possible that the shop did not change-out the engine at all. If the pistons and block were not damaged in the first failure, they could have just rebuilt the head, slapped the thing back together and kept your old tensioner, which might be the weak point.
You need to find out more information.
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Timeing belts don't jump around on their own. They may have been installed too tightly. I also don't buy the story of a piece of 'old' belt stuck in the camshaft. Perhaps they are learning how to do a Volvo timing belt the right way and will get you a good running car :) but some of your trust has gone with the second belt, hasn't it?
Klaus
--
98 V70Rawd(101Kmi), 95 854T(85K mi), 88 245(165K mi)
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you said:
"They may have been installed too tightly"
Did you mean to say "too loosely."
In my thinking, if a timing belt is installed too tightly, it will likely fail by breaking the belt in a tension failure.
If the belt is installed too loosely, the belt is likely to remain intact, but it is likely to jump a tooth, or more, causing poor performace, or a piston/valve interference failure
This user said that the "timing belt [had] jumped" a tooth, so, in my thinking, the belt was likely to have been installed too loosely.
Regardless, on an 850, can you really install a timing belt too tight, or too loose? The fact is that the belt tension is controlled by the hydraulic tensioner, and has nothing to do with any installed tension.
So, in my mind, these failures have little to do with installation technique and more to do with a problem with the hydraulic tensioner, or some catastrophic failure, or some misalignment.
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That is my thinking too...that it may have been a tensioner problem. I don't really trust that the shop knew what they were doing (the first failure did cause total destruction of the valves so a "new" engine was put in - it was the shop-owner that told us it had 70K miles on it - but they also put a new timing belt in that engine when it was installed in our car).
There is valve damage again this time, but since the engine is still under warranty it will be replaced by the shop free of charge. Perhaps then we should have a certified Volvo mechanic check the timing belt and tensioner. If we do that, do you think it would prevent a future recurrence? Because this new engine won't be warrantied, and if there's a risk of it happening again we'd rather get rid of the car.
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I have done the timing belts on '98 S70s on several occaisions (I have had 2 of them, which I owned for several years), and let me tell you, it can be a tough job if you don't know exactly what you are doing. I would bet the shop guy had very little experience doing belts on an S70, and did not know lots of the "little details" that have to be done to do the job right.
For instance, one really should ALWAYS replace the tensioner, mechanical or hydraulic, just to be sure, every time. Yes yes, I know folks that reuse them (I have tried in the past, and regretted it), and in the TP volvo manuals there is a process for testing them to see if they are OK for reusal, but really, they are a fairly affordable part compared to a $3-5K engine!
Other little things like the guide plate on the outside of the crankshaft and the pulley in that location... you can surely manuever the belt over the plate and in-between the shaft and a guide that is in that location, but doing so sometimes requires the creative application of force, which may or may not damage the belt if not done "just so." I am sure lots of shop guys do this because it can shave lots of time off of the job (and so have I, several times), but that time savings can come with a risk. If you can, it may be better to remove the parts that are in the way and just slide the belt on without forcing it in.
Other things, like how the guy stablized the cams can make a difference. For example, I have seen guys position the belt over the twin cams and then use vice grips to lock the belt in place over the cams. Probably fine if you use a rag to cushion the biting part of the pliers to prevent damaging the belt, but I have seen folks just clamp them on there, which can cut into the belt.
None of these would probaly break anything quickly, but after a few K miles, wear and tear could occur much faster resulting in catastrophic loss of your timing belt.
Also, the accessory belt has to be put on carefully also, and has its own tensioner, which while not requiring replacement, must still be carefully rotated to releive tension on the belt prior to replacement. If they don't, and force the belt on, same story as before, possible damage the to the belt, earily failure, and you may get the accessory belt wrapped up in the timing belt, and as Emeril likes to say: BAM!
Ok, yes, I am a long winded, but I have been severly disheartened by the shenanigans I have seen some of the cheaper end shop mechs pull. Just my 2 centavos!
If you are not one to do it yourself, just have the dealer do the belt, its around $200-$300, but compared to a $75 job that runs your engine, why risk it? I would get your new engine in, and take the care straight to the dealer for a belt and tensioner replacement, and a complete check up. You should be just fine after that.
Good luck!
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Thanks - you've been really helpful. Yes, I think we'll just take it to the dealer for replacement after this! Actually the dealer quoted us $550 to change the belt, which is why we originally did it at the cheaper shop, but the dealer quote included additional components that were recommended for replacement (I'm assuming that's the tensioner, etc).
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posted by
someone claiming to be Sam
on
Fri Jan 7 00:19 CST 2005 [ RELATED]
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To me, it sounds like whoever initially replaced your t-belt reused a bad serp belt. Unfortunately due to poor design on ALL newer "white engines", when a serp belt breaks (usually shreads) because it was cracked and neglected, pieces of it manage to get under the crank pulleys t-belt cover and get in between the cog and t-belt. The belt then jumps a tooth or more. I've seen this happen many times now and ESPECIALLY on newer engines like S80s when owners fail to have their serp belts replaced at 60K.
IMHO, because of that it's a very weak and vunerable design and in recent years, MANY are neglecting major services and their serp belts. It's a matter of time when these cars will be towed in by #s due to serious valve damage.
This couldn't happen with older 4 cyl red engines (non-interferance) because back then Volvo used an additional metal cover under the plastic cover that'd keep all debris from getting inside that t-belt cover. It still amazes me that with newer interferance engines, they opted to not use a protective cover like that and they've known for years that if a serp belt breaks, it often takes out the t-belt.
As for engine #2, like others have said you don't really know how many miles were on that one OR if it also had an old t-belt and/or bad tensioner.
Finally, not every shop everywhere has "techs" capable of knowing everything on all cars such as how to properly replace t-belts. Those shops will still try and tell you that they can do it as they need your money. Any shop can do easy maintenance work but when it comes to things more technical or things that require diagnostic work by someone who actually KNOWS Volvos, I'd seek someone with proper credentials and real experience.
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