Hey All,

I'm having some A/C woes in my '84 wagon (4cyl gas B23). The A/c never worked since owning it. Any of you who have done the conversion will be of great assistance. I reviewed the Dave Urban site, but he had a later model 240.


So Far as of last night:
I replaced the compressor, clutch, drier, exp valve, and recharged with r12. $$$

guess what, still not working...at all. Compressor kicks on and stays on.

My guess is the condensor or evap may be clogged with crud. At this point, after spending some hard earned cash, I feel as if I should continue to attempt to get it going. This time by converting the system to R134a in the process.

Here's my question: FCP Groton sells the retrofit kit with all the bells and whistles, but I only need the evaporator (already replaced the drier and exp valve..also have o-rings). Is the evaporator which comes with the kit available by itself?? And is it truly necessary to replace it for this conversion (I understand it may not be as effiecient?

What hose comes with the kit?

Any thoughts or encouraging ideas will be welcome. I'm dissapointed that my efforts to this point have been unfruitfull, so I'm slightly fragile...(read: please be nice and tell me this will work!!...eventually)

Cheers,
Greg

hi there.
checking the high and low side pressures may give a clue on whats wrong.
have you done this?
good luck
mike

The kit may be cheaper than buying the evqaporator alone. Keep in mind, if you get the kit, the expansion valve that comes with it is calibrated for r134

When you replaced the parts before, was there a bunch of crud at the inlet to the expansion valve or anywhere else? did the old compressor seize up?

If so, you need to flush everything and install a filter in line or an inlet screen on the compressor
--
-------Robert, '93 940t, '90 240 wagon, '84 240 diesel (she's sick) , '80 245 diesel, '86 740 GLE turbo diesel, '92 Ford F350 diesel dually

Hi Robert,

There was some crud at the compressor. (a very fine, grey dust). the expansion valve area and connections were clean.

that's why my thinking leads to a condenser blockage. This crud should be further forward if it wasn't the condenser. I have some gauges that I will put on as Mike suggested.

Am I correct to assume that really high pressure on the high side (>130 psi) suggest a blockage near the compressor (possibly condenser)?

What if the high side pressure is low?
What if the Low side pressure is too low? or too high?

thanks in advance.

-Greg

130 psi on the high side is low, not high. If it's 90 deg out the high side should be around 216 psi. If 130 is the high side and the low side is low as well, you are low on refrigerant. What are you getting on the low side?

If the high side were way high and the low side really low or in suction, you likely have a blocked expansion valve, rarely will an evaporator clog, if there is that much crud rolling through , the very small opening in the expansion valve is usually the catch all.


Condensor can get blocked, but rare, and can be flushed out.

--
-------Robert, '93 940t, '90 240 wagon, '84 240 diesel (she's sick) , '80 245 diesel, '86 740 GLE turbo diesel, '92 Ford F350 diesel dually

OK, based on your responses, I've attached my gauges, and tested the pressures.

BEFORE I turned on the car with the gauges attached pressures Read:
HIGH Side = 130
Low Side = super high(off the dial scale)

AFTER turning on the compressor
High Side = ~210psi
Low side = negative (vacuum)

Robert, in your last post you said I'd likely have a blocked expansion valve with these pressure readings, however, the expansion valve is brand new??!!!

What would be your best guess at this point?

Cheers,
Greg

Assuming that the outside temp is around 108 deg f, you have the correct amount of refrigerant in there.
But it really looks like a clogged or stuck expansion valve. It takes very little to jam one of things things up. If you had compressor failure before and residue in the lines, chances are it's jamed up.
read this nice little gauge reading article, very handy : http://www.aircondition.com/tech/questions/82/Troubleshooting-with-Gauges-FAQ
I believe they have a nice section on flushing too.
If the thing has crud in it, the best course of action would be to get the volvo kit from fcpgroton, so you have a new high side hose, evaporator , drier and expansion valve, disconnect the rest of the componants,remove condensor run flush through and blow out with dry air .put an inlet screen ( little screen with oring that fits in the suction inlet )on the compressor inlet or a line filter ( have to cut high side line at metal section with tubing cutter and install with included compression fittings ) on the line to catch anything left so as not to jam anything else up or eat the compressor

also note, rarely, but it does hapen, an expansion valve is a little stuck out of the box. beforf resorting to surgery, with the thing running, give it a few VERY light taps with something that won't damage it and have high presure refrigerant blowing all over the place and see if it jiggles lose. if a little won't do it, alot won't either.
--
-------Robert, '93 940t, '90 240 wagon, '84 240 diesel (she's sick) , '80 245 diesel, '86 740 GLE turbo diesel, '92 Ford F350 diesel dually

Thanks Robert!

You provided a very nice description of the components and what I'm up against, so thanks.

After spending a bunch of money already, I'd feel defeated turning back now. I will order the Kit, but was wondering where to find the screen you were talking about? It's not available through FCP or eeuroparts or IPD.

Also, is esther oil the appropriate oil for R134a, and is esther compatible with R12?

Cheers,
Greg

When you flush the system , you will get most of the old oil and r12 residue out. any r12 mineral oil left in any low spots( which youshouldn't have any if you take everything apart ) will just sit there. R134 will not absorb the r12 mineral oil and circulate it, the stuff will just sit in a low spot. make sure to drain the compressor ( there should be a plug on the bottom, but if not, you'l need to pul it and drain it out the ports)

The screens or filters can be purchased from a number of online AC parts sources.
Well. on checking, the inlet screens have fallen completely out of favour and nobody is carrying them anymore. There are some filters that will fit in the high pressure line between the condensor and the expansion valve . http://shopping.keepitkool.net/index.php?act=viewCat&catId=7
You would need to remove the high pressure hose between the drier and the expansion valve and take it to a hose shop and have them replace the hose with barier hose and either make the metal end near the drier longer to insert a filter there ( probably the cheapest option ) or insert a metal tube section in the middle somewhere and leave it cut in the middle to install the filter. They go on with a compression type fitting.

Or save the filter and just make darn sure that you get everything flushed out, but it can be a gamble.

Whichever way you go, make sure to flush it good before doing anything ( you don't need to buy the high dollar flush gun, the $3 harbour freight siphon gun that attaches to an air line works nicely with the bulk liquid flush, or you can get the aerosol flush, which costs more, but may be easier)
--
-------Robert, '93 940t, '90 240 wagon, '84 240 diesel (she's sick) , '80 245 diesel, '86 740 GLE turbo diesel, '92 Ford F350 diesel dually

Thanks Robert,

If I attach the filter to the metal end of the hose by the drier, will I need special tools? Or can I use my copper tube cutter to open the line, then bolt this filter up? Also, the filter would be vertical..does that matter? (I assume no)

In an attempt to find a hose shop, what would I search the yellow pages under? I'm in New Haven, and most of what we have here are doctors and students, both of which, at this time are pretty useless to me.

Thanks,
Greg

Sometimes they are listed under hoses....but don't count on it. You may have to call around a few hydralic repair places, they make hoses, not all have the ac hose, but they should know who in your area does.
If you absoloutely can't find one nearby, you can send the old hose to the guy at www.nostalgicairparts.com with your description of how you need it a little diferent and he'll set you up, and very reasonably ( he makes beautiful hoses, I get all my compressors and such from him and I had to have a special hose made for my 740td with a custom fan switch and it fit better than the factory hose )

Yes, it can be cut with a tubing cutter. make sure to get all residue off
--
-------Robert, '93 940t, '90 240 wagon, '84 240 diesel (she's sick) , '80 245 diesel, '86 740 GLE turbo diesel, '92 Ford F350 diesel dually

I do not have anything to offer except another question. What is the address for the Dave Urban site which was mentioned?

Thanks,
Rich

First step, I guess, is call FCP and ask if you can get just the evaporator and any other small parts you need. Decent folks, they don't bite.
--
DAMHIK: Don't Ask Me How I Know - - - Sven: '89 245, IPD sways, electric rad. fan conversion, e-codes, 28+ mpg - auto tranny. 500 mi/week commute. '89 245 #2 (wifemobile). '90 244 (spare, runs).

Thanks,

Yeah, I'm definitely going to give them a call, I just want to get other brickboarder thoughts on the necessity of the evaporator, and possibly what else to replace or look out for.

The Dave Urban write up can be found right here on the fabulous brickboard site.
http://www.brickboard.com/FAQ/700-900/HeatingAirConditioning.htm#Air_Conditioning_R12_to_R134_Change

-greg

PS. 28+ MPG is impressive! Good work!

Definitely check out Urban's site. Keep in mind that the 900 is a much newer system though. You (we) with older 240's are dealing with a host of efficiency issues, one of which is the poor efficiency of the older style evaporators and condensors, valves, etc. On our '83 I replaced the York compressor with the later, rotary style and had the sytem converted to R134 professionally, but left everything else stock. I'm never one to turn the car over to "professionals", but after many tries (and a ton of bucks in equipment) I have only once done a conversion that was trouble free and ultimately effective. More to the point, it takes me hours to do it! It cost $200 to have our '83 converted including o-rings, flush, oil and coolant (no, the older oil is not compatible, you'll have to flush it). When our temps cross 105 the system is marginal, but anything below that it's fine, though certainly not as good as when it was R12. For another $150 I could have gone to the newer style condensor and valve, which I would have put in myself. At that point I would have done the o-rings myself too. However, in the end, I find it is always best to take it in for flush, draw down and charge. One more thing, most shops do a high pressure test first, which is a great way to find bad seals, hoses, compressor joints etc.

DS

Thanks David,

I like the "light at the end of the tunnel" message I'm getting from you! Can't wait to get there...probably sometime in September when the temps drop dramatically!

-Greg

OK, based on your responses, I've attached my gauges, and tested the pressures.

BEFORE I turned on the car with the gauges attached pressures Read:
HIGH Side = 130
Low Side = super high(off the dial scale)

AFTER turning on the compressor
High Side = ~210psi
Low side = negative (vacuum)

Robert, in your last post you said I'd likely have a blocked expansion valve with these pressure readings, however, the expansion valve is brand new??!!!

What would be your best guess at this point?

Cheers,
Greg

Hello
I did the conversion on my 90 240 about two months ago.You already did the hardest part, The compressor replacement.The groton kit also comes with a replacement hose that runs between the compressor and the evaporator.This hose rubs on the frame and more than likly leaking.I hooked a filter to the end of my air hose and blew out the condencer before hooking everything back up.I let it blow for about an hour, got alot of oil and goo out.We just went though a week of 90+ days and my ac worked great.
Good Luck
Dave

oops, I ment to say I blew out the condencer, you get a new evaporator with the kit.
Sorry
Dave

Okay,

So, I bought the Kit from FCP. That will essentially mean I will have replaced every component in the a/c system. The only remaining piece will be the short hose connecting the condenser to the drier. I figure it's short enough to be cleaned well enough by hand.

New Qusetion: Is it absolutely necessary to remove the front clip to replace the condenser? Or is it possible to lower out from the bottom?

Thanks everyone for the tips. When this whole thing concludes, I'll write up a short description of "what not to do" (what I did) and "what to do" (buy the a/c bypass kit from IPD for $35)

-Greg

Hello
You don't need to replace the condencer I just blew mine out.The kit comes with a new evaporator that is located under the dash.The new evaporator is larger than the old one witch makes more efficient with 134.You will also need to install a 134 port on the low side of the compressor so the systyem can be purged.One thing to check on your old system is the heater valve.If the valve is not closing you are trying to cool with the heater on.
Good luck
Dave

Hi Dave,

Thanks for the info. Should I forget about the 134 fill port that came with the kit, and just attach something like this to my low side schrader valve?

http://www.drivewerks.com/catalog/shopcart/TOOL/POR_TOOL_CAT535_pg29.htm

-Greg
PS. Already got the new condenser (the old one had a broken mounting bracket, had some paint overspray, and some fins were damaged) I've already spent $1200, so what's another $155 between friends?

Hey Greg
My kit only came with the high side connection that is installed inline behind the dryer.I found a 134 connector at my autoparts store that screws on the low side schrader valve.The kit also didn't come with the orings for the hose connections on the compressor.
Good luck, stick with it cool air is on the way.
Dave

Thanks for the encouragement Dave!!

I just got the r-12 sucked out and will begin surgery on the old gal tonight.

Looking at the new evaporator, it is wrapped in a butyl tape around the outside edges and the bottom. What did you remove or leave on the evaporator before sliding it into the housing?

The instructions from the zip file on Shannons page states "remove the backing paper from the butyl tape on the rear of the new evaporator"

what about the tape on the sides, bottom, top?? The lack of detail in the instructions drives me nuts! (no pun intended with your login name)

If you can shed any light on the evap question, that's much appreciated as well.


Cheers,
Greg

I have a 1990 so it might be a little different.The tape came off the old one easy.Took a bit of tugging to get the old evaporater out out but once it started to move it came right out.Clean the plastic housing of all the old tape, makes it easier to get the new one in.Mine had a plastic cover on then end of the housing that held the evaporator in.After I installed the new one I could not get that end cap to snap back on.So I gave up and covered the end of the evaporator with the tape.I saved the old tape and used it too.Take your time,I installed the compressor one afternoon,another day spent 2hrs. unhooking and blowing everything out,and another afternoon installing the evaporator and hooking everything up.
Dave