Well, this is a first. I've never been on a forum before so I thought that I would take a shot at it and see if there is any advise out there that can steer me in the right direction....

After wanting an Amazon for many years I bought one last week. 1967 122S Wagon, Arizona car, one owner. Overdrive, roof rack, Volvo tach, chrome rings and more.

It was bought on E-Bay and I was a bit uneasy because the seller was having trouble communicating details about the cars history. Turns out that the seller bought the car from the original owner in AZ. The guy I bought the car from is a broker who sells cars to Germany. Speaks great German but very little English and seems too busy to respond to E-Mails. There was a lot of bidding on the car but the bids never seemed to go anywhere partly because the seller posted very few pictures but more importantly, he never answered anyones questions and had only two prior sales on E-Bay. A bit of a gamble but I made my best bid and went after the car thinking I would fly out to inspect it to insure that it was as advertised.

I won, and flew out to Az. The car looked great! Maybe one paint since original. White/black. Showing 28000 and advertised as 128K. Excellent interior, clean underbody, virtually no rust, no apparent body damage, mint headliner, new tires and brakes, shock replaced recently and everything appeared to work. Clear AZ title showing that the car was always titled in AZ. One owner who still lives there but his phone number is unlisted.

The one problem that I noticed was that at idle, the engine was making a mechanical knocking sound. Only at idle. Knowing that the car had been sitting, I originally thought that this may be from a loose valve adjustment, water pump, fuel pump or alternator bearing. Wishful thinking.

I negoiated the price down from my bid because of the sound, put the car on a trailer and pulled it home 1900 miles to the east in Chicago. Once home, I put it away until my wife had adjusted to the new toy in the garage and then waited to get passed T-Day. I worked on it yesterday.

Adjusted the valves, removed the belt to check the water pump and alternator and removed the fuel pump at the block to see if the sound came from any of these areas. Still there. I then added a lead fuel supplement, thinking that this may just be from unleaded gas. Wishful thinking. Car runs great but makes an anoying mechanical knocking sound at slow idle.

I'm thinking that it may be a worn out cam shaft but am fearful that it could be a rod knock. I was also thinking that this may be related to the advance on the timing but that is just a hopeful guess.

Here is what I know about the engine so far. B-20, so it was replaced sometime in it's life, appears to have a custom header exhaust, single Weber carb. (32/36 DGEV-33 B-1 Redline Weber D-133-5) Manifold, 2845 Cannon. Engine block has two numbers on it. # 1-419303 & then #4969 in a seperate location.

The serial # of the car is: 2231441 059034.
type: 223441 M
color 95
Uphol: 511-519

I can not find any numbers on the head but it was recently painted and the head gasket appears to be new. I'm not sure if the head is from the B18 or is off of a B20. I really don't know much about these cars so my learning curve is pretty steep.

Other than having this knock I'm very pleased with the purschase. The car is exceptionally clean and original. Rust was my major concern and there isn't any. I am anoyed with the dark purple tint on the windows. Have to figure out how to remove this. It did save the interior but I won't have AZ sun in the midwest to worry about. The factory Smith / Volvo tach also needs a rebuild.

Short of pulling the top end and starting with the valve train and cam shaft I don't have a clue where to begin. And if I'm going to do that, I will probally want to do the lower end as well. Who in the midwest specilizes on old Volvo's? any recommendations. I enjoy doing mechanical work myself but I will need a mach shop and a source for parts. This is all new to me so any advise or assistance would be greatly appreciated. My first 122.

Sorry for the long history but it's all part of the background to the question. Where do I go from here?

Thanks, Bill

OK it's been a month & I finally pulled the head. The noise was getting to me. Tried changing the timing gears on both the cam and crank, torqued down the crank pulley bolt, adjusted the valves many times, checked the timing and rechecked...

Everything appears to be recent as I disassembled the head. Gasket was new, never seize on the exhaust/intake studs, head came off very easily. Valves look great. Clean, not burnt, looking like the work was very recent. Pulled the lifters and the push rods. Push rods, all straight and clean. Lifters, clean, no wear or anything unusual. Rocker arm assembly, clean and appeared to have had valve ends machined, no wear indicated. Head and valve assembly looks OK.

After cleaning up the block a bit, I rotated the engine to inspect the pistons. Pistons had a thin amount of varnish/carbon build up. A rag and a bit of WD-40 cleaned up the piston tops so I could read the numbers on them. (71/9 D) all of the pistons looked good once cleaned up but then I think I found the problem.......... #1 piston at TDC moves enough to make a slapping sound. If you hold the piston you can actually move it left and right and hear it making noise. I checked all of the other pistons and they all appeared to be tight and solid/firm except #1. Feels like It's loose on the wrist pin and the rings aren't providing stability in the cylinder. Cylinder is clean, no unusual wear. The sound always felt like it was in # 1.... I thought it was a rod knock but maybe the bore is too large or the rings are broken off. I poured some 20-50 oil in the cylinder with the piston about half way up and it is holding the oil..... Maybe not the rings.

Can anyone tell me what the numbers are on the pistons? I'm trying to determine if they are OEM or oversize. The Engine is a B20B. Casting # 4969. Additional numbers: 1 419303 23681

Not sure about the head. The numbers off of the head show, 419305 in a casting above VOLVO. Additional casting # indicate 31 with PCG directly under. On the edge of the head appears a number
6 D28. There is a cast # 2 in the middle of cyl 2 & 3 located on the external wall of the head. Any assistance in identifying the head would be greatly appreciated.

After playing around for a month I figure that I will have to pull the bottom end and just go over everything from the start. It looks like alot is new but I can't tell who was in here before me and once you start where do you stop?

The good news is I'm learning about my Volvo and the block isn't cracked. I hope I'm still within tolerances for a over bore kit if that is the problem. Getting closer to figuring this out.

Any help with the numbers would be appreciated.

Happy Holidays!

Bill

If they were oversize pistons there would be something like .020" stamped on them to indicate the amount oversize. Since there isn't I'm sure you will find that they are original stock pistons. The only way to know the current bore size is to measure it with a bore gauge, The standard B20 bore is 3.500"

--
Lee 75 244 (75k original miles) 86 244 65 220 project

Lee, Thanks.

After closer examination of the # 1 cylinder bore, I have noticed that there is a substantial amount of metal missing about 1.5" below the deck of the block. You can feel the indentation on one side of the cylinder and when the piston is at TDC the rings must be expanded all the way out helping to explain to me why I can move the piston back and forth with slop and noise. Without a tool to measure the bore I'm only guessing what the size or extent of this wear is. The cylinder is smooth and clean, but you can definitely feel the difference in the bore. All other cylinders are fine.

Can anyone tell me what my options are in a block replacement if I need one? There is a car down the street for sale for $500.00, a 75 245 wagon, think it has a B21F 4-speed w/overdrive. If I lost the injection, used my head and carb set-up what would the outcome be?

What is the newest engine that can bolt in assuming that mine is too far gone?

I'm running a M40 trans w/J type overdrive. Still don't know what the head is from but I'm assuming that it is off of the B20.

Thanks, Bill

Oops! Last effort to post a reply goofed.

Block replacement: any B18 or B20 from any year of production will work - the best choice may well be the 1975 240 down the street - good engine that will bolt right in (if it's really a '75, and you're in the US, it's a B20, not a B21). Tranny would also work in your 122 (and the OD is a really nice improvement over the 4 speed), but the bellhousing won't - you'd want to retain your current bellhousing and use that with the newer B20 and/or M41. Carbs work just fine on B20F engines - block the injector holes atop the head, bolt on the carbs, tune the carbs, and you're set.

$500 is a good price for a running engine; a bit on the high side for an M41. But for a running engine AND an M41, it's a screaming deal.

Best,

Cameron
Rose City

And you could actually just swap bottom ends... Keep your current rebuilt head and fuel system. Maybe swap over the timing gear and the lifters and pushrods, maybe the cam as well from your current engine.

Or you could do as Cameron says, and leave the 75 motor together and just plug off the injector holes and then reattach everything else you had on the other motor.
--
Kyle - 142, 145, and 244! - Oregon Volvo Tuners?

I had the same noise on my 70 145.
Really bad sounding, like something was slapping against somethiing else, and soon to go shooting though the block. You could feel the concussion through the whole car. It changed with the RPMs.
It was also intermitant.
checked the valve lash, also didnt see any slop on the valve train when turning the engine back and forth by hand.
Dissasembled and cleaned the dizzy, looking or a broken spring on the wieghts to see if one of those was slapping around.
Shined a light and fished around in all of the cylinders looking for a piece of old spark plug or valve.
Ran a compression test, it was fine.

Finaly Called my Dad, who is a master duct tape mechanic and asked him if there was anything that sounded like a loose rod that was not actually a loose rod.
He told me to tighten the nut on the crank shaft pully.
So I put the breaker bar on it and sure enough, I got a 1/8 turn out of it.
No more knock.
Apparantly, it will float on the shaft if a little loose and knock on the woodruf key.


Btw, firing order is 1-3-4-2, cylinder #1 is in the front

Just an aside, disconnect PCV valve and see if the sound goes away. I seem to remember that I had one that was very noisy at idle.

My old B18 made some pretty odd noises. It got progressively worse before it suddenly got much smoother and then the oil light came on. The motor then got *very* bad. Fortunatley I had been preparing a B20 repalcement as well, so its all worked out (to a point - witness my ecessive postings for help).

Anyway, my point is that you might want to be sure your oil pump is in good shape. My old motor ran well at certain RPMs but it was aparrently nearing the end. I've not done a full autopsy yet, but I do know my distributor shaft was sheared from the drive gear.

Hi Bill,

I have what sounds like the same problem with my B18. I purchased the 122 for a very good deal as the previous owner had no clue about the timing gear issue. When I got it home, I did find a timing gear in 2 pieces. Changing it was no problem (I went with steel), and I changed the thrust plate on the cam as well. All should have been fine, but there is still a knock at idle. I don't know what it is (could be shot lifters etc.), it is sort of a tick that sounds like valves at idle. I've checked and reset the valve clearance 3 times and determined that they are fine (used all methods). I've been running it like this for about 16 months and am currently working on a new B20 for replacement. Then I'll strip the B18 and see what the ticking is all about. Other than that (and it is annoying), the car runs fine.

So if it isn't the timing gear or cam thrust plate, run it and see what happens.

Craig

Craig,

I changed out the gear, by the time i got around to it I discoveed a steel gear in place of the fiber gear. Someone had already been there and done that! I went ahead and changed out the steel gear with the new fiber matching set. Changed the brass plate behind the cam gear as well....

Sound is still there and will drive me nuts just because it appears at idle like something is going to let go. Engine runs great under load but I want to figure out what it is. My guess is that the cam lobes are worn and that there is a bad lifter. I'm thinking of pulling the head but I spent the day in the garage yesterday and I need to just push away and think about it for a while. Hope it's not a rod.

The sound is anoying isn't it.........

Thanks, Bill

Hi Bill,

Let me know if you ever get to the bottom of the noise. My B20 is still a way off, so the B18 has to get me around at the moment. Mine is definately not the PCV valve (although this does have a tendency to rattle on mine). Sounds for all the world like a valve ticking, my current guess is that it is a bad lobe/lifter. We'll see when I get it out and take her apart.

Craig

As long as you have the timing cover off I would suggest you check the small tube that lubricates the gears, they have a tendency to 'gunk up' if the car has not been driven frequently. Just insurance for your new gear(s), really.

Cheers!
OK

Big Congrats, that was the one down in Scottsdale? I was drooling over it and I even have family in AZ to store it for me, but wife said NO. If you find that you need timing gears and decide to go with steel let me know, I have a set or two.
--
Lee 75 240 (75k original miles) 65 220 project

Bill;

...I don't have much to add to the previous posters...except maybe to advise you to also search the site for more on the timing gear issue (troubleshooting, and repair...there should be lots of material of interest and help, because the topic comes up now and again) and...Congrats! on your purchase and welcome to the Forum!

I third the cam gear as the probable source. Pull your timing cover and take a look.

As far as your window tint. My 1967 122S wagon has the same issue. It began life a nice dark blue, but was painted white and the windows were tinted when it moved to Texas with the original owner. I bought it with 500,000 miles from the original owner and drove it home in May 05.

I couldn't stand the tinting - especially the windshield strip. I got the tint off with a simple rasor blade wand (red handled long tool with a clip-in razor blade on the end). Spraying the tint with a 409 or Windex will help get the tinting to release and come off where you've scraped it. It smells awful when it comes off, but you'll be happy with the final result. Let me know if you need any further info about stripping the plastic film

Also, I'm down in St. Louis. If you come through, maybe our Volvos can meet :)

Thanks, I don't like the tint and I was concerned about scratching the glass in the removal process.

Appreciate your recommendation on the cam gear. It appears that this is the problem. I'm going at it this morning.

Thanks to all who responded, I will let you know what I find.

Bill

Welcome Bill,
I would concur with Phil & George.
Most have been fooled at one time or another by the sound of a timing gear failure, thinking it is something much more serious.

The gear is not difficult or very expensive to replace yourself if you have the reasonable mechanical skills, will, patience and a decent shop manual. With a car that has an unknown history, I would change the gear anyway. It is easy to find parts for these cars from on-line sources.

If you are not familiar with these cars, invest the 20 bucks for a Haynes manual. The Haynes does a pretty good job. Don't bother with a Chilton's manual in my opinion.

Enjoy your find!
--
Tom - '60 544, '68 220S, '70 145S, '72 144E (formerly my driver, now parting out), '86 745T

Thanks for your response! I'm going at it today!
Bill

There's a strong chance that the knock is from a cam timing gear that's starting to come apart. It's a fiber gear with a steel hub, and after many years -- it seems related to age more than mileage -- the fiber starts separating and you get a knock at idle.

Closely related is a worn cam thrust plate (the retaining plate). The cam end float is set only by the difference in thickness between the plate and a spacer ring on the nose of the cam. The plate is supposed to be .003" thinner than the spacer, which keeps the plate from being pinched between the front of the first cam bearing journal and the rear of the timing gear... but both those surfaces contact the plate as the cam is pushed forward a backwards by the lifters. Eventually one or both sides of the plate wear away, end float increases to much more than .003", and you can hear the cam knocking forward and back at low speeds.

It's not a huge job to replace the gear and/or the plate -- the head doesn't need to come off, or anything like that.

Phil and group,


Well.... I pulled the timing cover and found a steel crank gear as well as a steel cam gear. I've have since bought a new gear set with a fiber cam gear and new steel crank gear and was going to install it this morning. After pulling the cam nut on the existing steel cam timing gear I noticed a few things that didn't add up to me. It's been a while since I've played garage mechanic but let me run this by the group and tell me if I'm crazy....

Remember, the engine runs great, except for this knock/noise.

The marks on the cam gear and the crank gear line up when the #4 cylinder is ATDC.

If the firing order on this B20B is 1342 with # 1 at the front of the block or closest to the radiator, which I would assume it is, the timing gears line up with their marks w/#4 ATDC.

When I rotate the engine to show that the distributor rotor is firing on #1, and the valves are both closed, the crank gear mark is where it should be but the cam gear mark is 180 degrees away or exactly opposite of where it should be. Additionally, the marking on the distributer housing indicating #1 is lining up when the rotor is pointing to number 3........ I don't get it... how is this engine running?

My simple question is the firing order and location of # 1. Without at manual, one has been ordered, I'm only guessing that # 1 is at the fron of the car. Is it? If it's at the rear, I still have a distributor issue but I can't understand how the engine can be running well with all of these timing issues??? Perhaps the noise is one of the pistons hitting a valve but that wouldn't last long......

Since I first wrote I have learned a few more thing about the car. The engine is a B20B mated to a M40G trans with a J overdrive unit. The OD works in all gears, which is a tad scary because the switch is incorperated in the turnsignal switch which may have either been a high/low flasher or the power window washer pump acuator.

Thanks, Bill

"Additionally, the marking on the distributer housing indicating #1 is lining up when the rotor is pointing to number 3..."

I have personally never heard of such a mark... would have to be something a P.O. applied, and it sounds like he may not have been the best of mechanics? The distributor (or more correctly, the wiring) has to be "correct" relative to the cam, or the engine simply would not be running.

Gary L


--
1971 142E ITB racer, 1973 1800ES, 2002 S60 T5

Gary,

On the lip of the distributor, (Bosch) there is a slice cut into the casing which you can see when the cap is off. A simple line... From my old days of 356 garage pleasures, this line was used to indicate the general vicinity of where to position the distributor so that # 1 would line with the rotor. You would advance or retard from there accodingly. Back in the early days I didn't have a timing light, just a light that would show when the points would open.... This line was used as a point of reference to start the timing sequence.

Bill

Bill,

This mark on the distributor must not be universal, as I have at least one Volvo Bosch distributor that does not have such a mark, and one that does. (I didn't dig through all my spares/junkers, just checked the two that were handy.) FWIW, this mark is not mentioned or pictured in any of the factory shop manuals I have for various B18 and B20 engines. An aftermarket manual (Haynes) that I have for the 140 series does mention it, by way of suggesting you put such a mark on the distributor before you remove it. Bottom line - I wouldn't bet the bank on it being in the correct position.

Be that as it may, the photo below may help you sort out distributor positioning. The photo shows (with the distributor removed) the correct approximate position for the distributor drive when the #1 (front) cylinder is at TDC on the firing stroke. In the case of your B20B, the angle "A" should be at about 5 degrees. If it isn't, you can pull the shaft out and reposition it on a different tooth. You'll want to note the "depth" of the drive in the block before you pull it out, as a check to make sure you're engaged in the lube pump at the other end when you reinstall. You may need to use a long flat blade screwdriver to rotate the lube pump a little (or a lot, depending) in order to let the drive shaft engage the pump in the new position.

When this is all done on a B20B/E, the dist rotor should literally be pointing at the #1 spark plug, give or take a little... in other words, the tip of the rotor will typically be at about the 9:30 or 10:00 o'clock position on the distributor with the #1 cylinder at TDC firing.

And BTW, I don't think it was specifically mentioned in any of the responses here, but when the marks on the timing gears are lined up, it is the #4 cylinder that is at TDC firing, not #1... your gears were installed correctly.

Gary L
--
1971 142E ITB racer, 1973 1800ES, 2002 S60 T5

Gary,

Appreciate it. Thank you.

Bill

Phil,

Appreciate it! Will post my findings!

Bill!
8 to 5 you have a fiber timing gear going south (coming loose on its steel
hub). This is a VERY common occurrence. There are timing gear sets on ebay
all the time and you could go with a new fiber gear or a steel timing gear
set. (If you go with steel, you have to change both gears because they are
a different pitch in the teeth.)
This has happened to me on almost every red Volvo engine I have had. It is not
a big deal to change but you need either a 15 inch Crescent wrench or a
1 7/16" socket or box wrench for the nut on the end of the camshaft.
A 3-legged puller for the timing gear helps - I made one out of a triangular
piece of plywood and 3 carriage bolts with the heads ground eccentric. When you
replace the gear you should also replace the brass plate behind it, which with
the steel ring behind the gear and its woodruff key, establish the forward/aft
location of the cam in operation.
--
George Downs Bartlesville, Heart of the USA!

George,

Great forum! Very helpful information. Going to pull the radiator and timing cover off today, have already started to drain the cooling system. Will post my findings.

Bill

A lot of times the the timing gear appears to be good even though it is
getting loose on the hub. (So you can't always tell by looking at it.)

You might want to take advantage of the opportunity to put a neoprene seal
in the timing cover. Works a lot better (and longer) than the OEM felt seal.
--
George Downs Bartlesville, Heart of the USA!

I managed to screw the refill up when I switched motors (way too little coolant in when I started the car) so a new headgasket is in my future.

Be sure you refill through the top cap on the radiator or pull the top radiator hose and fill the block and radiator together - alse be sure you orient the thermostat so the the littel valve is at the frontmost edge (the motor sits with a slight rear tilt).