I replaced the head gasket on my B20E after blowing it last week.

I carefully and slowly reassembled everything this afternoon.
After installing everything and connecting up the distributor, carb, and wires, the car will not fire up. Except for an ocassional soft pop, it gives no indication that it wants to start.

To check the problem I've pulled, cleaned and re-gapped the sparks (.030). I've checked that there is spark coming through all four spark plug wires and from the coil. I'ce checked the condition of the cap and rotor, I've checked that there is fuel being pumped into the carbs and that there is fuel in the carbs. I've even tried reversing the wires to match the listed firing order.

Still, the car just cranks and cranks...

The only thing I can think of that might be causing problems is that I cleaned the inside of the combustion chambers with a wire wheel. I vacuumed the head thoroughly afterwards and poured some clean oil through the head.

I managed to recover 155 psi in the #1 cylinder, but #4 now has no compression. I noted before that the physical condition of the cylinders are good with no scoring, lipping, or signs of mechanical damage.

Add to all this, is that the weather just went steeply downhill and it's raining ice right now...


Configuration - Carburated B20E, Dual SU HIF6s, B18 Distributor with Crane ignition, NGK Plugs, Magnacore Plug Wires. It all worked and ran well before I pulled the head and replaced the head gasket.

I have had similar issues in the past.

Two items not previously mentioned are:

1) Dizzy not fully seated in drive gear.
Try lifting gently on the shaft and turning it. Or have someone crank the engine over with the dist. cap off so you can see if it actually goes around.

2) Ignition "hot" wire connected to wrong power source.
I replaced my ignition switch with a universal one and found that it killed all power to accessories (ign "on" hot position) when cranking. Moving the wire to the correct post solved that!

G'luck.

Mike!
--
Mike!

I spent several hours out in the cold garage working on this today. It still doesn't start and I'm out of ideas to try and out of tollerance for the plumeting air temperatures.

btw: the valve cover is off until I get this solved, I do not have a timing light, and there are no points in my distributor. I have reasonable compression in all four cylinders


Initially, I spent some time trying to make sure the distributor was properly synched up with TDC on #1 cylinder. I found TDC by removing the spark plug and turning the crank with the fanblade until both intake has opened and close and that the exhaust valve had not yet opened and the rotor was pointing towards #1. I felt inside the cylinder with a long screwdriver and adjusted the crank back and forth to confirm that I was at the "top"

The position of the rotor looked very wrong so I removed the distributor and moved the distributor gear until it was pointing towards #1. The manuals say that for B20E and F and the rotor should be pointing towards #1 at an angle about 5 degrees off the straight line formed between the two distributor base bolt holes. There were only two gear positions in that range, so I dropped the gear in at what appeared to be the closest setting and carefully moved the crank until the gear mated up to the oil pump. I wired up the plugs so that the rotor was on or about to contact the #1 spark plug wire

I also checked the plug wires for CC firing order 1-3-4-2 and tried rotating them CC until every combination had been tried.

I also removed and carefully checked over the electronic ignition system in the distributor. I was incorrect in stating that it was a Crane system. It is actually an "Allison" ignition. There are no points in it. I really know nothing at all about this device except that it has always worked perfectly and it appears undamaged in any way. I did remove the entire distributor and took it inside for a careful cleaning.

I checked the timing gear marks on the front pulley. TDC on #1 appears to correspond to the second tick mark on the pulley. This pulley actually came from my B18 (it was infinitely cleaner) and does not have the inscribed timing values on the pulley. I'm not sure if it makes a difference, other than it is more difficult to read.

I also pulled all four spark plugs and re-gapped them to .025 - .030.

I charged the battery up and made numerous attempts to start the car after every change.

I got one brief milisecond of ignition when I had rotated the wires but it never started or even acted like it was close to starting. It also only happened one time. No brief sparks, no random pops. Nothing. I've rechecked that there is a spark passing through the wires. Fuel is definitely getting into the cylinders (gas-wet sparks) yet there is no ignition. The ignition unit is hooked up and all the car's systems have power and operate normally.


Even if my timing was all screwed up, then the engine shoud at least fire randomly, but it acts like the sparks are not getting a pulse or are not sparking, yet my test tool clearly shows me an electrical pulse going to the spark plugs. It just makes no sense.

I have the same allison on my b20 I just loosen the dist a little and turn it both ways till it fires,with the allison in its not like the points system the photo eye is in a differant location than the points. Dick

Hi RJ.

I wish I could help you more than just offering my moral support. I know a thing or two about working on cars in the winter (even here in Southern Alberta - often considered the warmest part of the Canadian praries - insert oximoron jokes here) and know what a litteral pain it can be (my wife insists I come in when I can no longer feel my fingers!).

My best advice is to find a Volvo buddy and do a little head scratching together. On another Volvo list I discovered a fellow Volvo nut that lives 3 blocks away and we have a good working relationship. I spent Saturday in his heated garage (very good idea), yanking the OD off his spare tranny to go into his 240. I've done it before and know how it works (where the oil hides, have the tools etc). Not that he couldn't do it without my help...but a little help and experience helps.

So whom on the BB lives close enough to help out?

Craig

Thanks for the support. Working on a cold day like this makes me appreciate why a chunk of my family left Canada back in the early 1800s...

I know you say you are getting fuel and you filled the tank recently.
Have you tried pouring some fuel down the carbs and seeing if it fires?

My 145 died last summer. I contemplated the same things as you, saying to myself you only need fuel, compression, and spark. Why the hell isn't this thing running?

My problem turned out to be water contaminated gasoline. Was real hard to diagnose...smelled like fuel, looked like fuel and therefore I assumed it was not a fuel issue. This drove me nuts!

Pulled the fuel bowl covers off the carburators carefully so I could inspect and sure enough you could see the water at the bottom of the fuel bowl. Dried them out, flushed the line, changed the filter and was good to go.

Then it was time to fix the leak on the rear door/window. Still chasing that one. Anyway, check the fuel bowls and refill them with fresh fuel. What have you got to loose at this point.
--
Tom - '60 544, '68 220S, '70 145S, '72 144E (formerly my driver, now parting out), '86 745T

Of course it makes sense, you need fuel, spark and compression for the thing to fire. You said you lacked compression which it was surmised was due to the valve clearances not having been adjusted.

Read my earlier post and use the method I suggested to check the clearances it is easily the quickest way.

Then once you have correct clearances compression test, do you now have compression on all the cylinders?

Then set the static timing. If you don't have points you need to figure out how to statically time the electronic ignition unit you have. It is possible to put the oil pump shaft/distributer drive gear back in such a way that the timing can't be adjusted properly because the vacuum unit hits the block rather than allow the body to be turned correctly. At a guess that is where your fault lies.

I adjusted the valves to .018 already. This is a B18-style iron-body bosch distributor w/o vacuum advance so I can't make the mistake you descibe.

As I noted, I have fuel, I have spark, and I have compression in all four cylinders. But something is not right. Either the timing is still *really* off (which I doubt because the engine ran fine with this setup before I pulled the head) or I'm overlooking somthing really critical yet not obvious. Even with my timing screwed up, it should still fire or misfire with all this cranking.

Is it possible that I could be getting a pulse to my plugs without actually creating a spark? I've tried two sets of ngk plugs so far.

OK, so you have fuel, spark and compression. You therefore need the spark in the right place. As John suggested test to see if the plug is sparking. Personally I somehow doubt you have 8 faulty plugs, 1 is highly unusual.

Make sure the basic static timing is somewhere near, 0 on the pulley, two loose rockers, rotor arm pointing in the right direction (ish)

Then the leads on anti clockwise 1 3 4 2.

We then KNOW that is correct. If I didn't know how to time up the electronic dizzy, and I'm not familiar with the one you have I'd loosen up the clamp bolt and slowly turn the distributor back and forth with someone turning over the engine on the starter until the car starts. Once its running sort of you can use a timing light. Or i'd temporarily fit a points distributor so knew I was chasing a single fault.

Another old dodge is to get the plugs nice and hot with a blow torch (removed from the engine) before attempting to start it. Leave it sitting with the plugs out for a few hours, wet plugs prevent starting quite effectively.

Thanks for the suggestions. I have not tried adjusting the timing by rotating the body yet, and the sparks are usually wet when I take them out. It smells like fuel, but it might also be contaminated.

I'll give it a go this weekend when I finally get some more time to look at it.

Pull off a plug wire, plug an old spark plug into the end, and lay the plug on some metal (so it ground). Then crank it over and see if you get a nice spark.

--
'63 PV544 rat rod, '93 Classic 245 + turbo

If you didn't remove the dizzy, and you are geyying spark but no igniton, you probably mixed up the wires. I've never done this myself, but it least 2 of my friends have, and it sure took them awhile to work out that this was the problem.
BTW 0 compresion with no scoring on #4 and funtional valve seats means either 1.the comp rings have disapeared (???)
2. the #4 cam lobe has dissapeared (possible)
3. there is a hole in your piston (you proably would notice this when inspecting the cylinder)
4. The con rod is broken (should be making some kind of noise and when you were inspecting the the cylinders presumably you would have noticed that the piston wasn't moving)
5. You didn't seal the tester on the cyl as #4 is harder to reach ( I vote for 5.

Keep It Simple. Patrick

It's a bit too cold and nasty here for me to get back to the car, but I noticed one odd thing I didn't notice before.

After putting in the new head gasket and torquing the bolts down, the head appears to be approx 1/16" to 1/32" shifted to the passenger side of the motor. I'm not clear how that would be causing my problem, but it's a bit weird.

That's normal -- bet you just didn't notice the shift before.

It's very possible that the head gasket you took off was .050" thick if the head was ever off before, because many suppliers stock that one for both the E and F motors. If you installed the correct .030" gasket and just bolted the rocker assembly back on without adjusting the valves, you've reduced the valve lash by .020" and now have some valves that are not closing.

Okay, I went out, removed the valve cover, and adjusted the valves to .018 gap using the VClassics tech instructions. I also pulled the old sparks and replaced them with new NGKs. Those are gapped to .030. Still doesn't start.

I did notice something else that was odd. When I first put the motor in and hooked everything up, the engine would not start. It turned out that the middle contact in the distributor was snapped off. It took me a bit to figure it out, but I replaced the cap with the cap that was on the B20 distributor, and the the car started and ran fine. However, I realized this evening that the new distributor was 180 degrees off from the original B20 distributor and that I had put the cap on incorrectly. Well, I reversed the cap and wires thinking that would take care of the problem, but it still cranks and cranks and does not fire. Now my battery has run down and I still don't know what it won't start.

Starting to get a bit discouraged here. IS there anything else that might cause this sort of problem?

How can I confirm that my wires are in the right firing order?


BTW. I rechecked the compression and now get 150, 150, 160, 180 after adjusting the valves... I guess the compression number show that they were not, and still probabaly are not adjusted quite right, since I lost pressure in one and gained quite a bit in another.

You need to look which cylinder is at TDC firing stroke. Set the engine to TDC (0) on the crank pulley. If you now feel the rockers you will have play on either the first two rockers or the rearmost two rockers. The cylinder with play on both rockers is on the firing stroke (both valves are fully closed, hence its about to fire).

You then look where the rocker arm is pointing it should be pointing at either the lead for number 4 or 1 cylinder. It doesn't really matter whether you set static timing on 4 or 1, but 1 is the convention, if you want the other cylinder on the firing stroke simply turn the engine a full revolution.

The timing order is 1 3 4 2 the distributor turns anti clockwise. Assuming we do this from 1 now set the timing pulley at 10 degress BTDC (before top dead centre). Look at the points and get a cigarette paper and put it between the points. You then loosen off the clamp bolt on the distributor and turn it so the points just start to open. You can tell when they're about to open because your bit of cigarette paper is released by the points! Bear in mind the shaft in the dizzy turns anti clockwise, so get the points on the correct side of the lobe on the distributor shaft. This means the points should start to open as you turn the body of the distrubutor clockwise.

When the points just start to open lock the clamp bolt, you have now statically timed the engine. Put the rotor arm back on and look where it is pointing, assuming the foregoing has been done with the first two rockers loose this is where number 1 plug lead goes. Then stick the other plug leads on going anti clockwise from there 3 4 2.

Incidentally you also have a fast way of checking the valve clearances whilst doing this, on one firing stoke you should have clearance on rockers 1, 2, 3 and 5 turn the engine a full revolution and check 4, 6, 7, and 8

Number 1 cylinder is the cylinder at the front of the car.

Re; Firing order
Doesn't your green book have a picture of the wires?
Bring the battery indoors and charge it.
Did the rotor run wild and wreck the crane or blow off the breaker plate?
Wrong dist.caps or unseated rotors can do some evil magic.
Once again,I would put the original back on.
Check the thread Kyle sent you and do the 'nines' on the valves to
be sure.
Hang in there.
Ken



--
White 86-245 DL, M 46, IPD bars & Wagon Overloads,Commando Bumpers,SS Belly Pan & Air Pickup,Straight-Shot EMT Chassis & Tower Braces,Scorpius Alloys,2 Belt No AC Conversion,Black POR-15 No Glare Front End

I used a 0.8mm head gasket, but did have to adjust the valve lash.

About my wiring, the 140 green book does have a picture, as well as my haynes manuals, and the other volvo green books that I now have. Also, I made the effort to mark and label the wires and the distributor cap before I pulled it all when deconstructing the 1800E. However, if something is reversed, then the pictures don't help me much more than my labeling. What gets me is that the marked firing order does not quite jive with the correct wiring pattern. It is maybe just that I'm looking at the order backwards. I need to go out and play with it tomorrow if I can avoid going in to work for the whole day.

My thought is that I must have dropped the distributor gear in 180 degrees backward when I put that oil pump reinforcing ring on. Since I managed to put the replacement distributor cap on backwards to the distributor and the engine fired right up, then logically I should be able to install the cap correctly and flip the wires around. This cap shows no sign of damage to it's contacts and there is no visible damage to any part of the distributor innards.

I cannot put the B20 distributor back on because I have an aftermarket electronic ignition unit and it will not work with B20 distributor. I'd also have to rewire my whole ignition system and go back to using points.

Maybe I ought to grab yet another one of my B18 distributors and put the electronic ignition into it...

I'm also still thinking that there's something that's not hooked up correct this time.. Just not sure what, I didn't remove the dist, so I really can't see what could be doing this... Maybe this cap and rotor are screwed...

Nathan;
You won't see a loose breaker plate it will move however,
and your timing will jump all around.
Ok, don't go backwards. It was working before.
The wiring pictures for the 'B' and the 'E & F' are different.
Seat the cap correctly,sort out the wires.
Then have someone crank it while you move the dist by hand
a little,because the 'soft pop' does sound like a timing issue.
Ken
--
White 86-245 DL, M 46, IPD bars & Wagon Overloads,Commando Bumpers,SS Belly Pan & Air Pickup,Straight-Shot EMT Chassis & Tower Braces,Scorpius Alloys,2 Belt No AC Conversion,Black POR-15 No Glare Front End

With a timing light, crank the motor over by hand until #1 fires. Then look at where the motor is. First, look at the timing marks on the crank pulley. Anywhere remotely in the ballpark is good enough to get more than a few random pops. Something like 10 degrees BTDC?

If that is correct, next check to see if you have everything 180 degrees off. Open the oil cap and peer through to see what the #1 valves are doing. If one (or both) is open, you are 180 degrees off, and are trying to fire the cylinder in between the exhaust and intake strokes. Swap the wires around 2 spots on the dist cap and try again.

When the distributor drive gear is in wrong, the wires (at least when moved around enough to run properly) won't look like any manual picture. And sometimes, you can have the gear in such a position that you can't time it properly - the vacuum thingie on the dist could be against the block.

If you have spark, and it is at the right time (near TDC #1 while both #1 valves are closed), then move on to the next issues. Sounds like compression is squared away, try some starting fluid in the carbs during cranking to see if the carbs aren't fueling for some reason.
--
'63 PV544 rat rod, '93 Classic 245 + turbo

RJ;

Once again, JohnMc has it well covered and I agree with his posting...the bottom line is that the spark has to arrive at the correct plug at the right time, and this is where all the variations between cam/valve timing, dist drive gear, ign wire position can confuse you...don't let them!

...even if the dist drive gear is installed wrong, you can get an engine running...just shift the location of the ignition wires by one 90Deg station in the direction you need, which will allow the vacuum unit to clear the block etc. This trick is to understand what each change you make is doing to "the bottom line." I'll repeat: The bottom line is that the spark has to arrive at the correct plug at the right time...recheck your timing (including cam and valve), firing order is 1342, Dist rotation is CCW.

Good Hunting

It's petty hard to get no compression to register at all unless the valves are staying completely open. and you should be able to determine that from watching the valve train. I would guess, however, that not starting has little to do with any lack of compression in one cylinder. I've been trying to find out on how few cylinders I can run my B20, and with the plugs removed from two cylinders it will still start and run. Any of the suggestions made here could apply. My bet would be on George's.
Bob S.

Adjust the valves(it needs to be done, trust me), and fix the timing. Should start right up. :)

http://brickboard.com/RWD/index.htm?id=1050605

--
Kyle - 142, 145, and 244! - Oregon Volvo Tuners?

How old is the fuel?

Summer & Winter are two different blends of fuel. Also, as fuel gets older, it gets harder to start because the stuff that makes it easy to start evaporate out.

That fuel was put in the week before thanksgiving when the old B18 was on it's last legs. Temps did not really crash around here until last last week

If you had your distributor out I would suspect that you didn't get it back
in right. A VERY common error is to get it in off by 180°. To check this,
get #1 to top dead center with both valves tightly shut. Both valves on
#4 should be very slightly open at this point. The distributor rotor should
then point to the #1 wire position. If not, move all the wires in the same
direction until the rotor does point to #1.
Not having any compression on #4 now sounds pretty fishy to me. Do you have
adequate valve clearance on all valves? Should be at least 0.018" and I set
mine at 0.020" IAW the manual. Having zero or negative valve clearance will
certainly keep you from getting compression!
--
George Downs Bartlesville, Heart of the USA!

I've not checked the valve clearances, but I didn't removed the distributor when removing the head. I'll check the TDC and the rotor and let you know what I find.

Whenever I pull the head I end up turning the engine a lot to get the valves to spec, and then doing it all over again immediately after running it too; so do double check those.

So you're cranking it this way to read compression, but it's not starting? I guess that would rule out ignition, if you don't have any compression on 4. But, I don't know anything about the crane unit.

I empathise with your frustration. O lord do I empathise. All of the below are dead...
--
Volvos: '66 122s, '70 142s; Citroens: '70 DS21, '71 ID21F

It sounds to me like a timing issue. Number 4 having no compression seems a little odd. Have you checked you valve clearances? Are you sure the dizzy isnt 180° out? I would suggest that you start by checking your static timing. Remove the valve cover and rotate the engine until number one piston is at TDC (top dead center)with both valves closed. Confirm that the rotor is pointing approximately at the lead for the number one plug wire. From there make sure your firing order is correct as you go around the cap from that position. These are just some basic checks, please post back what you find.

mark

The dist. rotor turns counter clockwise,so check you plug wires are not in a clockwise order

I might re-check that compression. I know from experience that the fitting can sometimes not seat properly. I thought I had a blown up engine until I did it all over again.

Not to overstate the obvious but...an engine needs three things to fire. Fuel, compression and spark. Even if it's only got compression on 3 cylinders, it would still fire if the spark was happening at the right time. I suspect, as others, that your timing is miles off...

Dale

The occasional pop is another strong clue that ignition is just far from where it needs to be.

And unless you did something incredibly wrong putting in the HG, either the compression reading is wrong (try it again) or it's valve related (loosen the valves, make sure they both have slack before comrpession testing again). Or just listen to the starter motor as it cranks around. 0 psi in 1 cylinder will sound like whir-whir-whir-wee-whir-whir... (etc). The starter will go through that comrpession cycle noticeably easier if there's really a problem.
--
'63 PV544 rat rod, '93 Classic 245 + turbo