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Greetings all, I have just joined this group after being a Volvo nut for 34 years. I have owned a 71 164e, 72 1800e, 73 1800e, two 164e’s, and two 245’s.
My only Volvo currently is my 1800e with a b30e engine, 410+ overdrive transmission, driveshaft, and rear end w/ 3.31:1 ratio from one of my 74 164’s I stuffed in about 30 years ago. I recently uploaded a video to you tube which can be seen at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKn-LTNa4rc
(The rattling noise is the remains of my home made rear sway bar threaded rod end links, and the shaking is the 1/10th inch out of round welded and redrilled 5x4 ½ inch bolt pattern hubs and axels.)
I know want to finish the job of converting this think into a 164 by grafting the front suspension from the 164 into the 1800. My question is, does any body know what the kingpin inclination of the 140-164 spindles is? It would be nice if I could find a set of dropped American car spindles that would easily bolt up to the 164 control arms without too much fabrication to keep the lowered car from riding on the rubber bump stops like it does now.
The 1800 suspension’s inclination is 8 degrees and it seems that the 164’s is somewhere between 7 and 7 degrees from the poor diagram I downloaded to AutoCAD that I found in the 164 users manual. The Volvo service manual for my 1800 has this information, but I don’t own one for the 164.
Unfortunately, after crudely pricing out b30 parts out of KG Trimnings Swedish web site, I might have to convert this thing into a Chevy with a 350 V8 or a 4.2 liter 295hp 4valve straight 6.
I have been called crazy before and if any of you all do it again, I will understand.
Thanks, James
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Why don't you look for a v-12 from a jaguar???
or for that fact a 4.9 liter straight 6 from a ford van,,or 2 you make up a new crankcase& weld 2 cranks together&then you'd have a 9.8 liter v-12??!!!
that'd scare the shit out of corvette/viper drivers.
What the Hell go for broke.
OHj Qwai tange Whai!!
--
!965 NSU Prinz,1958&9 VW Beetles,1972 Renault R10,1970 Fiat 850,1972 Chevy Nova,straight 6 3 spd.topped out at115mph,1982 VW Rabbit,1987 Ford Econoline Straight 6 Supervan,445,472 miles before it flamed up!1989 Ford Taurus Wagon 3.0V6,took 18"of snow to s
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Sorry, That was a 73 1800es and two 74 164's. Also the kingpin inclination for the 164 seemed to be between 7 and 7 1/2 degrees. I guess I should have proof read it a little better.
James
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James,
In two words'Way Rad'.
I don't care what they say about you,you got it going ON!
Did you see the Hot Rod Mag Dec 1964 issue,Ford 289 to Volvo Swap?
The 289 was chosen because it is narrow,and a modified tunnel was needed.
I like the 2 tone non glare paint job,and especially the ground-effects.
'71-140 Green Book says 7.5 degrees.
Ken
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White 86-245 DL, M 46, IPD bars & Wagon Overloads,Commando Bumpers,SS Belly Pan & Air Pickup,Straight-Shot EMT Chassis & Tower Braces,Scorpius Alloys,2 Belt No AC Conversion,Black POR-15 No Glare Front End
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The two tone paint job is because I origonaly painted the car in Dupont Imron metalic gold, but after building my steel flares, I had the molested areas painted in tan while I was spending my unemployed winters in southern California by a company called something like Earl Shrib who would paint any car for $99.99.
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According to my 72 164 manual the king pin inclination is 7.5° with a
camber of 0° but is difficult to measure exactly because of resilience of
associated parts.
I get the idea that you are somewhere in the California desert. I would imagine
most of the parts you would need would be available at Revolvstore in Tucson,
Arizona and possibly at other salvages closer to you than that. With KGTrimning,
shipping will be VERY costly, especially for heavy parts.
'nother subject: From time to time people post on the brickboard asking if
they can put a B30 engine in a 122 or an 1800. Our response has usually been
something like, "Well, anything is possible but it will take a LOT of work.
Get out your measuring tape and compare the space to the length of the engine."
I wonder if you could make a separate post or maybe write an article related
to this installation, highlighting problems that came up and how you dealt
with them. It would be a tremendous benefit to me and probably quite a few
others also.
--
George Downs Bartlesville, Heart of the USA!
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The picture of my car is from above Bolder, Col. I finised my car while spending my unemployed winters in southern Cal. near San Diego. I live at the other end of the earth in balmy North Dakota and the nearest Volvo dealer is about 500 miles away. I figure I need over 200 streetable hp to keep up with all of the rice burners and mini vans running around. I have been really out of the loop for many years, did Volvo make an overhead cam 6 in a rear wheel drive? And if so, how many ponies did they make. How about IRS?
How much does anybody guess a peppy b30 would cost? I till don't have any money to spend on this thing and still have no tools or shop. Do I just get my extra hubs and axles redrilled by Dutchman Motorsports and redo the car as a Volvo, and move on to my next project of building an 8 wheeled 200++mph super car or keep going on this thing and finish turning it into a hard top Cobra?
I don't think that it would be too hard to convert the b30 to modern mass airflow sensing fuel injection, say out of my late model Bonneville 3.8(would the timing of an odd (or is it even) fire 90 degree v6 fuel injection computer be the same as an inline 6?). If not, maybe out of Chevy's 295hp inline 6. The only real issue would be rigging up a spark crank sensor. Don't know much about them, but I thought that the computer just analized air/fuel ratio and delivered fuel for whatever the engine was sucking in.
How much power can the m410 trans and whimpy spicer dana 30 rear axle take?
Sorry, too many questions and no knowledge. James
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The 960 had an overhead (twin cam) 6 in it with rear wheel drive. They only came from the factory in NA form though. Probably the most obvious big power route to take is to take a Volvo 850T5R engine, stock in the region of 240bhp and will go considerably beyond.
They are a modular engine, ie the 5 pot out of the 850 is essentially the same as the 6 out of a RWD 960. You can therefore bolt a 960 RWD box onto it.
It is also less of a boat anchor than the B30 engine, but considerably more complex.
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James,
The 1800-289 article states that;
"Neglecting the small friction losses in any gear train,output torque equals
engine torque times the lowest transmission ratio {first or reverse} times the
ring-and-pinion ratio. For a stock P 1800, this 110 ft./lbs. times 3.25 {reverse}
times 4.56 {or 4.10 without overdrive}. It comes out to 1600 ft./lbs.,and
spicer rates the 27 axle at 1800."
Of course overdrive and reverse are incompatable,and it is an early car with a 27.
It goes on to say;
"Firms like spicer tend to be very conservative when rating their products,so
they operate indefinately at rated load. Peak torque in a passenger car comes
only rarely and then only for a brief moment {brief but exhilarating}. It doesn't
take long to check all other uses of the 27 and find that it's used on the
Studebaker with V8 and automatic and that ratios up to 3.73 are offered.
The appropriate multiplication is 260 x 5.16 {at stall} x 3.73=5000ft/lbs.
Stude axles were never faulted {although it's worth noting that station
wagons,taxi's and police cars came with the larger 44 axle}. So pending
an unexpected misfortune,this volvo still has it's original axle fitted,of
course with a 3.07 ratio. {ratio swap was covered earlier in article}
If it should break,or if a limited-slip is called for,a 44 will be made up
with Volvo spring perches and hubs."
Note: A one piece drive shaft was used.
Soo if I may,let me pop some numbers in there even though
you have a 30 not a 27. Assuming 200 hp nets 220 ft./lbs,
and your M-41 1st gear is 3.13 + you did mention a 3.31 rear end?
220 ft./lbs. x 3.13-1st x {3.31 +11%} X for od=3.64 =2506 ft./lbs.
220 Ft./lbs. x 3.13-1st x 3.31 =2280 {usually no od on race cars}
It looks like you have PLENTY of tire and wheel there,and there are
guys on this board who have up to @ 200 hp coming out of the B 20.
The quality of the hardware is good,and keeping a Volvo a Volvo is
a statement into itself,however modified it is.
Example: 600 hp SEMA Amazon Wagon.
I guess that's as close to a recommendation as I can get.
Best wishes,It's a great looking Hot Rod,and a bold move.
Ken
--
White 86-245 DL, M 46, IPD bars & Wagon Overloads,Commando Bumpers,SS Belly Pan & Air Pickup,Straight-Shot EMT Chassis & Tower Braces,Scorpius Alloys,2 Belt No AC Conversion,Black POR-15 No Glare Front End
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Some of the 900 series had a 6 cylinder OHC engine, but I believe they were
not as trouble-free as the B30 and a LOT more expensive to fix.
The megasquirt injection system would work on a B30 for a few hundred dollars
and is adaptable to any perf improvement. For stock, D-jet (like you have)
is probably OK
There are combinations of hubs and OEM Volvo wheels that fit - Much better
than redrilling, not to mention probably a lot safer too.
Where in Nord Dakota are you from?
Please give us some info on problems encountered in fitting the B30 into
the 1800!
--
George Downs Bartlesville, Heart of the USA!
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I posted my engine swap essay and life story under the rear wheel drive section (I think... Haven't figured out how this forum works yet). Unless I can find an american dropped spindle with a 5x4 1/2" or 5x4 3/4" bolt pattern, I can't use my Weld wheels. The trick is to find spindles which will after taking into account the spindle height and king pin inclination, line up with the upper control arm and keep the tire flat on the ground.
Unfortunetly, none of the spindle vender salesmen I have talked to know the specs of their spindles. I plan to draw out the suspension on AutoCad once I find the data. Taller spindles with more king pin inclination plus more upper control arm angle should help out the camber curve if everything fits. Such a spindle might not exist, but 1970's Camero's look the closest.
I am told that correctly redrilled hubs and axles would work fine and I have put many thousands of miles on the junk I have now without the lugs ripping out.
Of course, The only tires avalable now for my wheels are crappy BF Goodrich TA van radials or maybe TA drag radials. It would be nice to upgrade to a set of 17x9.5" and 17x11" vet wheels w/ 275/40 and 315/35 tires, but Volvo hubs can only take a 5x4 1/2" bolt pattern.
I can't afford Mustang II or C5 Corvette suspension kits so Volvo parts are probably going to have to do. Width is no problem since I would build any size flares needed to cover up the wheels.
The real question is: do I fix up what I have or go all out and turn it into a hard top Cobra?
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By the way, I saw a set of pictures in the Swedish Volvo P1800 club of a guy who grafted the front frame section from an S-10 pick-up with a 327 Chevy engine into an 1800es. I don't want the added weight of the S-10 frame, steering, and suspension, but I realized that a V8 would fisically fit into the engine compartment.
James
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I would like to ask one more question, what is the width between the front frame rails of the 140-160 cars? I need this dimension for positioning the steering box and idler arm from the 164 into the 1800.
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James,
Report from Balmy San Francisco,1/4 mile from the ocean @ 50.5 Degrees...
1971 145-S
A little difficult to do exactly at the steering box with the engine in.
Two inches foreward,I can place two sticks in a straight line,and I
get 21 & 13/16 inches. However there are gussets wrapped around
the front frame rails where the box and idler bolt up,so I would call it
21 & 3/4 inches Inside Dimension.
Pulling outside to outside on the rails gets 26".
Center to center of foreward front cross-member mounting bolts looks like 24 inches.
Off topic; the V8 guys seem to blow the 240 rear ends above 300 hp.
From what I have heard.
Howsa'bout a 300 hp,16V white block/900 trans?
Did you see the B30 Mega-squirt thread?
Ken
--
White 86-245 DL, M 46, IPD bars & Wagon Overloads,Commando Bumpers,SS Belly Pan & Air Pickup,Straight-Shot EMT Chassis & Tower Braces,Scorpius Alloys,2 Belt No AC Conversion,Black POR-15 No Glare Front End
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Thanks for the dimensions. I cut and pasted b30 mega-squirt in the search and couldn't find anything except the web site of the guy who was eating his receipts and spent $4-5-6? thousand on his b20 1800 engine rebuild. I did find a web site that sells stand alone mass air flow injection systems for V8 motors, which sounds like the way to go, but they cost $2-3thousand. I'll have to try e-mailing them latter to find out if/how to add one over the d-jet just for fun.
What is a white motor and 600 trans?
I did find some information on jeep dana44's though. Too many different variations of rear ends to know what to look for.
I also looked at the 1800 guys from England who put a Ford engine into an 1800, but I can't understand why they installed the engine so far back into the passenger compartment. I tried to E-mail them from this computer at home, but I guess my account doesn't work. I'll have to try next week at work. They said that they did it to avoid the suspension and keep weight distribution better. I guess the extra 100# of the bigger rear end would help that though.
I think that farther forward will would work in my situation. Right know, I have the same size swaybars front and back. I also have stiffer rear springs than in front (cut-down tappered wire volvo progressive springs in front and cut-down front 70' Impala spings in back (the only things I could find in my local junk yard that where a little bigger then the rear tapered ones at the time)).
You might think that this setup would be a recipy for disaster, but with the weight distribution and two inches wider tires in back, it understeers in very slow corners like a parking lot race, and is very neutral at twice the posted speed limit in any other speed corner. It is very fun to 4 wheel drift on mountain roads and interstate on ramps (never had it on a real race track).
Back to the front spindles though; Maybe I should just try building my own. Late GM Camero's have a bolt on front hub with 5x4 3/4" bolt pattern with 12" disks like a front wheel driver. I can draw on AutoCAd and I know a local plastic injection company that has cnc computer mills that could wittle out a flat 3/8" plate to which I could weld on the ball joint and tie-rod bosses. This plate would also be cut to mount the brake calipers and if I mounted two Wilwood dinalite II calipers ($120 ea.), I could have unbelievable braking and keep the dual line volvo braking system for far less than their top of their line system. (just a thought)
Also, If I built my spindles with no king-pin inclination, the wheel mounting surface to ball joint distance was 4", and I had a set of 17x10" billet wheels made with 9" backspacing, the center of the wheel would be inline with the ball joints (0 scrub radius) and the wheel would't lean out on top when turning. This should mean that I wouldn't need very much camber gain in the suspension with a stiff suspension.
Anybody interested in what I have dreamt up for the independant rear suspension?
By the way, my wife won't let me say exactly were we live in case any Volvo purists want to hunt me down for what I did to a 24,000 mile 1800, but it is in the center of the scandinavian population of the north american continent and next fall when we have the Norsk-host-fest, I will hijack some Swede and have them interpret KG Trimning's web site for me.
James
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James,
Scroll back 50 postings,walrus has a posting with an excellent
recent discussion about mega-squirt.
The white block is the new style volvo engine,and a
900-Nine-hundred is the last of the rear-wheel drives.
'White blocks' are pricey,unless they come from a wreck,
and if the timing belt breaks the pistons hit the valves,
and it's hammered.
RE: moving engine back.
As the early 289 article mentioned the oil sump is in front
of the cross-member on a ford,and behind on a Volvo.
Also very close to 50-50 weight distribution is possible,
a-la BMW.
RE: Front spindles and brakes
Strong Pimp Hand has an excellent thread going on big brakes for 240's.
And some links to people who fabricate for conversions.
Wheel spacers can change bolt patterns as long as they are 25mm 1 in
thick or more. Also centerline has some new super light wheels called
Convo-Pro, and I think they make them up also.
The computer may have a translation feature.
Ken
--
White 86-245 DL, M 46, IPD bars & Wagon Overloads,Commando Bumpers,SS Belly Pan & Air Pickup,Straight-Shot EMT Chassis & Tower Braces,Scorpius Alloys,2 Belt No AC Conversion,Black POR-15 No Glare Front End
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Thanks, Does the 900 come with a manuel?
Why didn't they use a rear sump pan and pump from a Ford Van?
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James
Don't know why no van stuff.
They wanted it to handle and not move the radiator,or hood hinges.
The car wound up with 49.5% weight on drive wheels.
210 Hp and an auto trans.
Ken
--
White 86-245 DL, M 46, IPD bars & Wagon Overloads,Commando Bumpers,SS Belly Pan & Air Pickup,Straight-Shot EMT Chassis & Tower Braces,Scorpius Alloys,2 Belt No AC Conversion,Black POR-15 No Glare Front End
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