Hello to all on the board, it's been quite some time since I posted and in the meantime I have hatched a scheme which I'm anxious to pursue: pardon the long post but bear with me if you are in the mood for a harebrained proposition. First the outline, for there be many questions here:

1. anyone converted a B18 or B20 to propane, esp. using the original SU carbs as throttle bodies? I am interested to hear about this conversion in any car from any period.

2. anyone have strong positive or negative feelings about PV body repair panels they've obtained from any particular sources?

3. anyone want to weigh in on the wisdom of stripping my daily driver, world champion, lightly modified 63 PV544 to provide the guts for a crackpot Duett project, and then trying to sell off the 544 chassis?

4. windshield wipers.

In depth:

1. I plan to use a 1957 Duett (slumbering this past year and more in my garage, haunting my dreams, etc. as you would expect) as my daily vehicle in my two businesses, woodworking and upright bass playing. Both involve a pretty much continuous schedule of carrying heavy, bulky boxes around in a car/truck, and I propose that the Duett is obviously the greatest vessel ever built for this purpose. I am not looking for speed here.

I would very much like to reduce the impact of my driving activities, for political and environmental reasons. So far a conversion to LPG looks to me like the best way to do this while remaining within the beloved B18/B20 framework. Where I live (Illinois) the state will pay the cost of conversion to any alternative fuel if the components are purchased from an IL-based supplier. Any suggestions? I have seen fuel rings for SUs advertised on UK-based sites for use in Rovers, etc. but can not find any information about their usefulness in real life.

I will most likely use the 10:1 compression B18 from my 544 (about which more to follow) for this project: first and foremost because it's still quite fresh with less than 50k on it, and secondly--importantly--because LPG runs around 110-120 octane and will be much better suited to this engine, which has proved cranky to time properly on pump gas (or at least it was so until I moved to the Midwest and stopped needing to drive up hills). Additionally, I would like to look into "detuning" the exhaust system for maximum efficiency, and possibly adding an aftermarket catalytic converter. The most efficient exhaust system will probably prove to be a stock-sized one, but I'd welcome any comments on this subject, as well as any input from someone who's added a cat to their B18. I am not looking for speed here.

2. This 57 is in quite good shape overall but needs at least one rocker panel, and most floorboards. A couple of rear doors would also not be turned away, and a B18 nose will be needed, roof rack and some kind of front bumper...but I swear it is a contender. I'd like to know who's making well-formed replacement panels, esp. the rocker which I don't fancy trying to hammer up myself.

Only slightly off subject: did the doors on these vehicles ever seal well? There appears to be little or no provision for weatherstripping on the side doors at all.

3. As much as it pains me to say so, the days of keeping lots of extra PVs around are drawing to a rapid close; with a 1-year old baby already demanding to be given the keys to my 63 544, and the aforementioned heavy bulky boxes, and the ever-increasing shortness of time: something has to give. So my current idea is to remove the crossmember with its 122 disk brakes, rebuilt suspension and fancy shocks, pull off the twin-master cylinders and their bracket, remove the B18 w/alternator, M41d and its modified tunnel, driveshaft, etc., and move all this stuff over to the Duett, leaving me with the forlorn, abandoned shell of a still-beloved car. So I'd need to get rid of the carcass as quickly as possible in order to avoid concocting further schemes involving, say, transfering the entire mechanicals of a certain 5-speed equipped 145 into it, and then supercharging that B20 powered, fat-tired, four-wheel disked 544 into HYPER SPACE. See, it's happening already. I learned this from watching you all and I hold you responsible, especially Cam.

Has anyone ever tried to sell a decent (very repairable rust) non-rolling chassis? It's either going to be a 544 or a 145...if I were looking for any speed here which I am not.

Or do I have to bite the bullet and rebuild a B20 and another M41, make new caliper mounting brackets, rebush another PV suspension...what's that? You say that if I do, I will probably stand a better chance of doing most of it right this time around? You make a good point.

4. Windshield wipers: I need these. I love this Duett but the jankety linkage and blithely smoking wiper motor on my 544 has driven me to the edge of madness on several occasions, and this one looks like its less-cooperative forbear. Alternatives? The split-windscreen hot rod guys may have something up their sleeves on this one. Hot rod guys? Hello?

Lastly, congratulations to Phil Singher on having been rightly singled out as the person to interview about vintage Volvos if you are writing a piece for the New York Times and you have already talked to Colin Powell. Well done and hard earned.

All best and thanks in advance for your always-valued words--Nathan

I have a 445 sitting in my garage, and have also given thought to Propane/LPG. This is very popular in Europe for tax and environmental reasons, and I don't think it would be hard to do. In Europe, there are donut tanks that take the place of a spare tire that you could but in the rear spot on a Duett. I was planning on running dual fuel so I wouldn't run out far from home.

Let me know if want more links. I've got more on this subject, but you can just do a google search.

Kit:
http://www.fesautogas.co.uk/

DIY:
http://www.wps.com/LPG/LPG-book-final.html

Also, here is an article in Dutch about how to convert an Amazon (122). Sorry, no translation.


Uw klassieke volvo op LPG

In dit verhaal willen wij u duidelijk maken hoe de werking is, wat de nadelen en voordelen zijn en aandachtspunten en wetenswaardigheden over het rijden op LPG met uw VOLVO.

Hieronder volgt een kort verslag. LPG staat voor Liquified Petroleum Gas. Het is een mengsel van hoofdzakelijk twee gassen, butaan en propaan. Beide gassen hebben bepaalde eigenschappen, o.a. qua verdampings-temperatuur. 's Winters wordt er meer propaan toegevoegd omdat propaan bij een lagere temperatuur verdampt dan butaan. Een bijkomstigheid van een groter deel butaan in de zomer is datje bij een zelfde rijstijl meer km's uit een tank kunt halen. (nadeel van propaan is minder km's)

In het kort is de werking als volgt: Het LPG komt de tank in middels de vulaansluiting ergens aan de buitenzijde van de auto. Zowel aan de tankzijde als een de vulaansluiting zit een eenrichtingskiep, welke voorkomt dat er LPG kan ontsnappen. In de tank zit een overdrukventiel welk bij een bepaalde (hoge) druk gas laat ontsnappen via de buitenontluchting. Deze klep gaat dicht als de druk acceptabel is. Door een goed overdrukventiel kan de druk in de tank nooit te hoog worden en omdat er geen zuurstof in de tank is kan deze niet exploderen. Ook zit er in de tank het zogenaamd 80 % vulmechanisme welk de vulslang afsluit als het niveau bereikt is.

De derde klep op de tank is de elektronische afname kraan van de LPG naar de verdamper. Deze laat LPG door als de auto op contact gezet wordt. Doordat er tijdens het verdampingsproces warmte wordt onttrokken aan de verdamper wordt er koelvloeistof doorgevoerd. (hiermee wordt voorkomen dat de verdamper gaat bevriezen) Ook wordt de stationaire instelling en hoeveelheid LPG geregeld met de verdamper. Vanuit de verdamper wordt het gas naar de carburator geleid. In de carburateur wordt (net als bij benzine) lucht bijgemengd, zodat de brandstof zijn werk kan doen.

Nadelen:

De tank neemt altijd ruimte in beslag.
Inslaan van de regelaarnaald van de carburator is bijna niet te voorkomen. Deze is deels vrij te houden door er vacuüm op te zetten of vast te zetten met een kabel. (of de regelaarnaald verwijderen tijdens het rijden op LPG!)
LPG is bij eventuele lekkages niet zichtbaar. (ofschoon lekkages nagenoeg uitgesloten zijn maar door toevoegingen van aromaten wel te ruiken)
Voordelen:

LPG is een schone brandstof, de motor, en de olie blijft schoner.
Aangezien de verbranding van het gasmengsel langzamer verloopt dan bij benzine wordt de motor warmer maar is minder aan slijtage onderhevig dan bij benzine.
Alhoewel de LPG prijzen flink gestegen zijn ten gevolge van de strenge winter is het rijden op LPG voor de belastingvrije Volvo's interessant.
LPG is beter voor het milieu dan benzine.
Aandachtspunten en wetenswaardigheden:

Zorg voor een optimaal functioneren van de ontsteking.
Als de afgesloten benzinekiep toch iets benzine doorlaat geeft dit een onregelmatig stationair toerental.
Een te arm of te rijk mengsel is niet herkenbaar aan uitlaat en bougies.
Een te arm mengsel geeft een hogere verbrandingstemperatuur. Het beïnvloed het vermogen en de temperatuur nadelig. Bij een te arm mengsel in combinatie met een te laat ontstekingstijdstip kan "Backfire" optreden. (ontstekingstijdstip mag 2 graden vervroegd worden.) Een te rijk mengsel geeft (als enige) nadeel een onnodig hoog brandstofverbruik.

Bij lang doorstarten onttrek je warmte van de verdampen wat een te rijk mengsel kan veroorzaken.
Bij het rijden in de winter kan de verdamper bevriezen bij lang doorstarten.
(dit maakt starten nog moeilijker)

Helaas kan er een percentage zwavelzuur in LPG aanwezig zijn.. De "drap" (olie achtige toestand) in de verdampen neemt zwavel op. Bij een teveel van deze drap wordt de levensduur van de verdampen verkort. Het kan verwijderd worden middels een plug te verwijderen. (om de 50.000 km is voldoende)

Na vele km's kunnen rubbers in de verdamper harder worden. Hierdoor zal een goede instelling niet meer mogelijk zijn. (verdamper is te reviseren)
Regelmatig kontroleren van de klepspeling ter voorkoming van inbranden is aan te bevelen. (klepspeling hoeft niet ruimer te zijn dan bij benzine instelling.) Het inslaan van klepzittingen (verkleinen van klepspeling) ontstaat door het ontbreken van lood in de brandstof en het langer bloot stellen aan de hogere uitlaatgas temperatuur. De verbrandings temperatuur is nagenoeg gelijk aan benzine. Eventuele zachte klepzittingen zullen na een aantal km's vervangen dienen te worden door harde klepzittingen. (aantal km's kan best de 50.000 grens overschrijden)
Bij hoge toerentallen (groter dan 4000) wordt de kans op inslag van de klepzittingen groter.

(Een combi maakt bij dezelfde snelheid meer toeren dan de sedan door de andere overbrengingsverhouding)

Zogenaamd ontluchten van de LPG tank is een fabel. (er kan geen lucht in komen)

Voor het starten een korte gasstoot (chokeknop) geven is voldoende voor een goede stationaire start. (van het gaspedaal afblijven!) De verdampen en slangen worden nu goed gevuld.

Kwalitatief zijn alle merken LPG nagenoeg gelijk. Een merkbaar verschil kan zijn dat de verhouding butaan en propaan niet overal gelijk is.

Na zes weken veroudert benzine, het gevolg is dat de slangen en membramen aangetast kunnen worden. Zorg dus dat je bij normaal op LPG rijden geen volle benzinetank hebt.

Bij gereviseerde motoren dient duizend km op benzine gereden te worden omdat de lagere verbrandingsdruk bij LPG het inlopen van zuigers en zuigerveren belemmerd. Eventueel olieverbruik zal met inrijden op benzine eerder verleden tijd zijn.

Het is aan te raden om op iedere tank LPG een klein aantal km's op benzine te rijden. Dit ter voorkoming dat de vlotternaald te veel inslaat en zo worden eventuele problemen niet 's nachts zichtbaar als je onverhoopt zonder LPG komt te zitten.

How hard would it be to loosly translate the following that I THINK is in Dutch?

Rijd voordat je op vakantie gaat, waar geen of onvoldoende LPG verkrijgbaar is, een redelijke afstand op benzine. Het kan zijn dat de vlotter lekt en hierdoor volloopt.

Als de auto bijvoorbeeld een winterperiode niet gebruikt worden heeft dit geen nadeel voor de rubbers van de verdampen. Immers door het aanwezige koelvloeistof zal uitdroging niet voorkomen.

Voor de combi's zijn er twee mogelijkheden om de LPG tank zo netjes mogelijk weg te werken met behoud van de ruimte.

Op de bestaande benzinetank kan een dubbele gastank worden geplaatst. Deze geeft een kleine verhoging van de vloer tot gevolg. De tweede mogelijkheid is de benzinetank vervangen door een LPG tank en een kleinere benzinetank.

-Voor de klassieke Volvo's zijn in principe alle (conventionele) merken verdampers geschikt.

Hey Nate! Wondered what had happened to you!

Chicago? Not exactly the Pacific NW... but closer than before. Go West, young man.

You can put a B18 or 20 into a PV that was originally fitted with the B16 - this isn't as tough as it's sometimes advertised.

Really, the idea of making it stoopid fast is really okay. Heh.

But the not kidding bit: re: windshield wipers - if you can get the linkage sorted out enought that the janketies are minimized, the motor issue is way too easy - just pluck a tailgate wiper motor out of a 245. It's so close to identical that you can get it confused with the original (electrical terminals are different, so you have to change the terminals on the wires to get it connected up). Super easy simple good stuff. Except for the working upside down under the dash part, which is never much fun.

Good to see you resurface. Any chance you'll attend the alumni picnic this summer?

Cam

Hi Cam--good to hear from you. Yes, gradually working my way back West (Cameron and I attended the same high school one eon ago in Seattle, where one of my formative Volvo experiences included seeing him roll past in our friend Tosh's 544 with no two matching body panel colors; what was it that kept falling off that car again? The steering wheel, I think.) There's an alumni picnic? Shows you what a loyal alumn I am!

Yeah, I may try and run this Duett with the B16 nose and radiator. No idea what effect LPG/propane has on operating temp, if any.

Stoopid fastness in a Duett is all well and good while I'm still here in straight line country, but how about when I'm blazing down 101 chasing your Amazon? That 445 will tip right over. May have to save the superchargedness for future days though it is sorely tempting, esp. when I consider that hi-octane fuel.

Good to hear a firsthand account of the legendary 245 rear wiper motor swap. OK, will do.

Where do I go to be regaled with tales of high boost 122 antics? Thanks and all best--N

"Yeah, I may try and run this Duett with the B16 nose and radiator. No idea what effect LPG/propane has on operating temp, if any."

My rat-rod souped up 544 has a B16 nose and radiator on it. Even though it is a '63, it must have been in an accident somehwere back in time and been repaired with a junkyard front clip.

I've got a 2.1 liter motor that is probably putting out something like 170 HP, maybe a little more (depending on how it's feeling that day). Significantly more heat load than a B16 would have had. And I've mildly flirted with cooling issues in the past. It's pretty good now, but I'm near the limits of what the B16 radiator can radiate. I've put a large (16 inch) electric fan in front of the radiator to cure the rampant low speed/stopped overheating issue. Those stock fans really don't do anything to meaningfully move air at low rpms, especially without a shroud. That cured that problem, really just a low speed air flow issue.

But still, if I push it pretty hard for pretty long on a really hot day, that temp needle will still start to climb, which indicates a slight coolant flow/cooling capacity issue.

All rambling aside, you should probably be OK with a B16 nose, unless your radiator is partially clogged.
--
'63 PV544 rat rod, '93 Classic 245 + turbo

In reply to your question about selling a non-rolling chassis, last year I tried to sell a 544 rolling chassis AND a fresh completely rebuilt B18 engine. The chassis was in very rebuildible condition and 99% complete. I was asking $1200 for everything and listed it here on Brickboard and also on E-Bay. I received NO responses-not even any questions from either place. Needless to say, I am now in the process of restoring my 2nd 544. My guess is that you will have problems disposing of a non-rolling chassis. In my case (and yours) it had to be a local pickup only which presents other problems. Good Luck

Skeet: this is very useful to hear. I know that a non-rolling chassis would be of low appeal to me unless it was already in my garage--but since there are two rollable but very motionless chassis in there already...will take your experience to heart as I go forward, thanks--N

I know Duetts are cool.

And I've been reading this entire thread with much merriment.

You see, *my* Volvo holds almost as much as a Duett.

I run American-made, food-crop-sourced fuel whenever possible with little conversion work.

I get 35 city and 40 highway.

I drive a 245 Diesel.

Are you after saving the planet, saving on fuel expense, or just plain doing something cool?

VW TDI engines are out there, but lots of folk want them, and they're pricey.

I *believe* you can mate a TDI to an M46 using a D24 bellhousing. But I haven't tried it, so no promises.

Propane isn't the answer. It isn't a biofuel. Biodiesel and E85 are.

I don't think it would be rocket science to convert a pushrod Volvo to E85, but you might be on your own to do the R&D.

Drag racers in Sweden run Volvos on alcohol fuel all the time. How's your Swedish?

Hello Evan and thanks for your response. I take this question more seriously than you might suppose based merely on the fact that I seem to think think I can run an environmentally sound 50-year old jalopy full of heavy crap every day.

To you and JohnMc, and the other responders who have suggested biofuels as an alternative to the LPG plan, I direct the following attempt to clarify my position, and articulate my underlying assumtions where possible, in order of importance:

1. Long years spent with PV-series Volvos has made me a bizarre sort of one-trick expert. I would nver claim to be an actual mechanic, but I can now fix any part of a PV with a wooden shim and a sharp rock, or humbler materials if these are not available. Therefore when I think of the perfect all-purpose hauler, my thoughts turn to the Duett rather than the Mercedes wagon, the Sprinter, or any of the innumerable cool Diesel-powered wagon/vans which I could attempt to import from Europe. What kind of person has this sort of compulsive attachment to an outmoded, obsolete hunk of transportation? You! OK, me too.

2. I consider the B18/B20 platform integral to what I admire about PV Volvos: their sturdiness, simplicity, and the fact that they are somehow cool in the face of outright bulbousness. The B18 is as familiar and comfortable to me as the interior of my car, and it's hard to imagine feeling that way about a drive-by-wire TDI parked under there. That's why I'm hoping to hang on to my SUs as well as the B18. The humanity. Don't get me wrong though--when this project goes south I expect to be looking for a nice used Jetta wagon the next day.

3. I am not, as I have mentioned, looking for speed, nor am I looking to save money at the "pump", or whatever you get propane out of. I am looking for a lower-emitting engine which I will actually get around to making in real life. The fact that LPG engine conversions are so overwhelmingly common in all countries except the USA leads me to think that this is a practical solution. The fact that propane reduces overall hydrocarbon emissions by somewhere between 50 and 80%, depending on who you ask, is equally compelling. I can not find hard evidence that ethanol can claim anywhere near this kind of reduction of tailpipe gases, and that's putting aside the very loaded issue of what it takes to make the stuff. I am putting my money behind a fuel which is already proven technology--though it is, like all fuels we can run old Volvos on, riddled with drawbacks.

On the political side, it is my understanding that most (again, exact figures vary) of the LPG sold in this country is produced in this country. Personally I am less concerned about supporting terrorists than I am about sending our friends and neighbors overseas to get oil away from its sources at great bodily risk to themselves. LPG seems to me like the least evil--given propositions 1 and 2 above, that is. Ultimately I feel we can't win as long as we power our lives by lighting things on fire, either in our homes, our cars or in a power plant across town. But an alternative to that method is not on the near horizon.

4. I don't have to pay for the equipment necessary to make the conversion: the state is supposed to pick up the tab on that. So the additional cost of the LPG tank, for example, is not an issue here.

Hope this helps explain matters a little--all best--N

As others have pointed out Ethanol and other biofuels are not currently (or in the near future) a viable alternative to fossil fuels. Just ask the folks in Mexico who can't buy tortillas. Don't even start me on the fallacies of hydrogen. A careful life cycle analysis of the biofuel process shows that yes more energy is used to produce it than it can carry. There are some folks who claim that newer cellulose technology will be able to break this barrier but so far no viable method of breaking down cellulose has been proven. In the mean time, even though it doesn't seem to make sense, using fossil fuels is the most economic and environmental way of fueling our modern societies. The problem is our modern society. The example of Brazil is another fallacy since their ethanol industry is highly subsidized, they use much less fuel per capita, and they receive more solar energy per square foot than most of the united states, and sugar cane grows very well there. For the near future the only realistic way of lowering our release of carbon is by an increase fuel economy and eliminating other wasteful uses of energy.

For interesting reading you can look at my faculty advisor's webpage (he is the leading anti ethanol hype guy out there):
http://petroleum.berkeley.edu/patzek/index.htm

There is also another professor at berkeley who has a different view of the same subject: http://socrates.berkeley.edu/~kammen/

You can read them both and decide for yourself.

When the Dutch V44 Volvo club came through (including through Chicago) a
couple years ago, I met them in Joplin and noticed that many of their cars
were equipped to burn propane, the same propane that is used to cultivate
corn (if not diesel fuel) and to make the fertilizer that you have to use
to get a decent yield of corn. Corn-based ethanol actually uses more fossil
fuel to produce and distill than it yields in energy. Besides that, excessive
use of corn for such things is causing the tortilla-eating Mexicans hardship
because it is pushing their food prices up. No wonder so many cross the border
for better jobs!

I don't know if it is better to keep the SUs or not but there are plenty
of options for propane conversion and it is a really good fit for a high-
compression B18 or B20 engine. Dual downpipe and bigger exhaust are ALWAYS
better unless you are using a racing cam downtown.
--
George Downs Bartlesville, Heart of the USA!

Thanks George! I agree there seem to be a lot of options when it comes to getting the propane into the engine. Hoping someone--esp. in the States--has tried one and can report on it! Good luck with the Peril and the bull fiddle as always--N

If it was a 444 chassis with very little rust, I'd be interested. But not so much interest in a 544 chassis with rust. I've already got one of those!

How about using ethanol in your car? LPG is still a fossil fuel, you are still returning carbon to the ecosystem that was sequestered away millions of years ago. Ethanol comes from current day crops grown by farmers in the US. It makes a nice substitue for gasoline, nice combustible liquid with higher octane. No need for pressurized tanks. It just needs about 30% (+/-) more fuel flow. Sounds like some really skinny SU needles might do the trick? Or possibly some custom bored out jets.

I'd be running the 245 on E85 now. If they sold it in the St. Louis area in more than 2 or 3 location (none of which are anywhere convenient to me). But E85 is easy to do on a fuel injected car, especially since I have a Megasquirt controller which can store multiple fuel and ignition maps. Currently I'd have to swap them with a laptop, but with about 15 minutes I could add a switch that would let me switch between gas and E85 whenever the need arose.

Another thing I'd think would be interesting is putting a diesel drivetrain in a PV or Duett. the really neat thing to do would be to get a VW TDI motor, mount it to a RWD style transmission (ACME Adapter sells kits to hook a Toyota pickup trans to a TDI motor), and stick that in a PV. In bone stock form, they have roughly the same HP (90) as the original B18 did. And the swarms of TDI owners support an active aftermarket supply of performance improvement products for them too. So you could end up with a car that is both fast AND extremely frugal. And for the near ultimate in guilt free driving, run it on biodiesel. It's even more environmentally friendly than ethanol, because there is less processing needed from plant to tank. Or just try to get your hands on an old small diesel pickup. I think a few japanese companies used to make them, and they tend to last forever. (something like eBay item 130086681475) Buy a rusted out example, pluck the drivetrain intact and drop it into the Duett. There's a mild bit of irrational pricing going on on old diesel cars like that now, but it's faded since gas prices subsided slightly.
--
'63 PV544 rat rod, '93 Classic 245 + turbo

Where do you live? For I too am working on a VERY similar project and was going to make a post tomorrow that said almost the same thing, although I am more interested in ethanol (because I can make it!)

This could be really good!

Talk to you soon!

Andrew

Hi Andrew--I am in Chicago. Glad to hear I'm not the only kook. What are you converting to ethanol? Best--Nathan

ANOTHER wack-a-doodle idea I had:
Question: What happens when you increase the combustion too much on an engine? (no this isn't a bad joke)
Answer: you get a diesel.

My idea started with the convert one of these cast iron monsters to a diesel. Drop the spark plug in favor of an injector (direct injection!) and run bio-diesel. Way more efficient, cleaner, powerful, better… until you consider the economics. By the time you have converted a bXX (B30, 21, 18) to diesel you have probably spent more than what it would cost to get a VW TDI that already can run on BioD and can be tuned to get INCREDIBLE fuel economy.
(can you tell I have been stewing on this for a few years?)
However, the real kicker comes when you do the math. I have a spread sheet at work that lays out how many miles one would need to drive before the improvement pays for itself. It is pretty scary. I don't want to make up numbers but if I remember correctly: a 10k upgrade that doubles your fuel economy will take almost 100k miles before it pays for itself. My biggest issue there is that Porsche, yes, Porsche came out the Cayman that on the highway gets, you ready for this, 32 miles to the gallon! PORSCHE! Our measly little 50mpg diesel stands to have circles run around it in a few years with the progress of technology.

So what is my solution? Right now it is corn but tomorrow I will crunch the numbers and see how it looks when the dust settles.

For now I need sleep!!

Andrew

"...Porsche came out the Cayman that on the highway gets, you ready for this, 32 miles to the gallon! PORSCHE!"

1976-1979 I owned a Porsche 914. At the then national speed limit of 55MPH that car loped along at 1800 RPM producing 42MPG. No one believed me but it was true. That was with the Bosch fuel injection that was standard on the 1.7L engine. My point is that good MPG and Porsche need not be mutually exclusive terms.
--
Mr. Shannon DeWolfe -- (I've taken to using Mr. because my name tends to mislead folks on the WWW. I am a 51 year old fat man ;-) -- KD5QBL

I believe they had the D-jet injection system too.
--
George Downs Bartlesville, Heart of the USA!

I totally agree. I have been looking at the '76 912 for that same reason.

However, when people thing Porsche they usually think 911 and my 911 get 11mpg. My race 911 gets about 12. that is pretty terrible. (yea yea something about if you hold the throttle to to deck all the time your gas mileage will go to hell...)

What do you all think of the ethanol or propane ideas?

Andrew

"What do you all think of the ethanol or propane ideas?"

I consider propane superior to ethanol for several reasons.

With the increasing interest in biodiesel and ethanol, the forage crop and food crop prices are already beginning to rise. More expensive bread is a bit more societial cost than I am prepared to bear for an alternative fuel.

At present, it takes more engergy to obtain a gallon of ethanol than the liquid can produce. That would likely change with a larger market but, in turn, more usage would further aggravate grain prices.

Ninety percent of all propane is domestically sourced. Of the remaining ten percent, 7/10ths is purchased from Mexico and Canada. That is about as close to local sourcing as we are likely to get for any fuel.

Propane burns cleanly. The main combustion byproduct is CO2. At the risk of irritating those who think manmade CO2 is responsible for our warming climate, the increase in CO2 that the few homebuilt conversions are going to produce will be statistically irrelavant.

The infrastructure for propane has been in place for decades. There are tens of thousands of propane outlets. How many ethanol stations are there?
--
Mr. Shannon DeWolfe -- (I've taken to using Mr. because my name tends to mislead folks on the WWW. I am a 51 year old fat man ;-) -- KD5QBL

See my other post for my views on ethanol. Currently Ethanol is made from
food materials which are cultivated using a LOT of petroleum fuels, using more
energy than the ethanol yields, especially if the distillation is considered.

Methane is a MUCH better fuel and produced in tremendous quantities if you can
just collect it.
--
George Downs Bartlesville, Heart of the USA!

George and Shannon,

I think that you all missed my point.

I am proposing taking a 5 acre field that has nothing in it for 50+ years, planting corn (by hand) harvesting corn (by hand) and converting it to ethanol. Using wood or something else found on the property for the thermal energy needed for the distilling process. The idea here is cheap!
By the time I include fertilizers, pesticides and herbicides I am not looking at spending more than 100 bucks for 5 acres of corn. I will have to spend several hundred for the still but that is a one time cost. At $100 for 5 acres, in theory I will have produced 1000+ gallons of ethanol at a price of less than $1/ gallon! Averaging all of my vehicles together that much fuel should take me almost 30k miles!

This is assuming I don’t eat the corn, etc…

Andrew

Back in the 70's my uncle decided to go "off the grid" before that phrase was even coined. He built a solar still and planted sugar beets. He tried for several years to make it viable. In the end, he decided the labor and time was far more valuable than the end product.

Fuel is much more expensive today. It may well be worth your time and energy. You might be interested in the solar still he used. It was basically a box painted black with a glass cover over it. Look around, I am sure there are plans for solar stills available.

Another benefit; you will be recovering not only alcohol but purified water too.
--
Mr. Shannon DeWolfe -- (I've taken to using Mr. because my name tends to mislead folks on the WWW. I am a 51 year old fat man ;-) -- KD5QBL

It's also assuming that your labor is available and doesn't cost anything
and that the revenuers don't get you. (Pretty hard to prove intent....)
--
George Downs Bartlesville, Heart of the USA!

Yes it is assuming my time is free. However, now that I am single I do have much more free time. Plus the learning experience has got to be second to none! This is first hand enrollment in the school of hard knocks!

Andrew

There is a permit process through the ATF. I am not sure what all it entails but it makes you a legal ethanol fuel producer.
--
Mr. Shannon DeWolfe -- (I've taken to using Mr. because my name tends to mislead folks on the WWW. I am a 51 year old fat man ;-) -- KD5QBL

Interestingly enough it is not longer the ATF. It is the US Alcohol and Tobacco Tax and Trade Bureau (TTB). and the permit: http://www.ttb.gov/alcohol/permits.htm

There is wealth of really good info at the Journey to Forever. I had done some work with them when researching bio-diesel but had abandoned the project and forgotten about it until I came upon their website again today. http://journeytoforever.org/

I hope that will help to answer some of your other questions too!

Andrew

AMS--the journeytoforever website is very interesting and reminds me above all how much I would like to get my hands on a Land Rover. Forget this whole Duett thing...I need some Lucas electrics somewhere other that just the hi-beam switch! Amazing trucks. A friend recently circumnavigated Africa in one and reported no substantial problems--N

When I was growing up my Dad had a mid 60's LWB diesel Land Rover pickup. He'd bought it used from a logging company in British Columbia, IIRC. most spartan car known to man this side of an old tractor. the only things that weren't metal on it were the three padded seats - simple squares of plywood with foam and vinyl stapled onto them. Absolutely no trim or carpet or even rubber mats elsewhere, Just painted aluminum or steel.

At one point he took off the cab roof and built a large camper body onto it, and we road tripped all over the south/southwest one summer. When gas prices spiked to an all time high in the early 80's (adjusted for inflation) we used to get used cooking oil from local restaurants and pour it straight into the tank after filtering it. Ran even better on oil than it did on diesel. We lived in rural southern MO so there were lots of opportunities to go out on long abandoned jeep trails quickly disappearing back into nature. The land rover was far better off road than it had any right to be, and the diesel motor was near perfect when crawling over rocks. The pedal rpm regulated the motor, not power regulated, so it would adjust the power as needed as it crawled up and over rocks and berms. And it had gobs of torque down low jsut off idle. And it would drive around all day long on one tank of diesel/oil/whatever you poured in. And it was beat up enough that you didn't have to worry about scraping it through/over/under trees/branches/bushes.

Of course, on the highway, it was somewhat out of its element. It would go 55 or 60 mph, provided you gave it 10 minutes to get up to speed. But it didn't really care that you kept the pedal floored for 30 minutes at a time (on the road, it was really like an on/off switch - little reason not to floor it all the way).

The electrical system on it was a true joke. All the laughs had at Lucas' expense? Well deserved. Of course, this was used as a farm truck, so the electrical gadgetry wasn't really needed. But we had to keep a license plate on it, to drive it on the roads. So every year when the plates were due we'd spend a while trying to get all the electrical components working at the same time. Patch, tinker, solder, sszzaaapp. And when they all worked (and really, we are talking about wipers/headlights/turnsignals/brake lights/horn) we'd quickly whisk it over to a 'friendly' garage and cross our fingers.

Great truck, though. Eventually my dad got tired of it's quirks and gave it to my cousiin to restore, and got a diesel F350 Ford. Which hauls 3 times as much, has electrical sytems that actually don't need constant minding, and has parts that are available for dirt cheap down at the local parts stores. Ah progress. It's jsut not cool like the old Land Rover, though.
--
'63 PV544 rat rod, '93 Classic 245 + turbo

Land Rover+cooking oil+rural southern anywhere=Paradise. Must have been good times growing up like that.

Coincidentally I have been considering going the all-metal interior route in the 445 as well for that 1940s farm-vehicle-or-long-range-bomber look, since it's halfway there already. N

I have been considering going the wood interior look on my P210. The luggage area was originally fitted with I believe mohagony plywood. Since most of my vinyl panels for the front and back seats are missing or destryed I thought about putting wood panels there too. Looking through an old 445 parts book that I have I saw that some versions had wood paneling all around (probably for delivery models).

Another thing I was considering was how much space there is between the interior panels in the luggage area and the outside of the body. I was thinking it would be really cool to build little drawers or compartments into the wood paneling back there to use that space. I was thinking it would be great to put fishing supplies, fasteners, tools, or other items to make the car even more utilitarian. As it is now it is the best fishing vehicle ever. I can put my 12 foot aluminum boat on the rack, put the outboard and gear in the cargo area, still fit five people in the car, and drive out to Tomales Bay for halibut fishing.

From the windy city! That is a bit far from Baltimore but that doesn't mean we can't pool thoughts, after all that is why WE were awarded Time magazine's Man of the Year!

Yes I am crazy too. And I still can't figure out why she left after 4 years and I can't find anyone else.

To actually ANSWER your question: EVERYTHING. But to start I have a '81 242 (NO RUST!) that needs TLC (and a donor car). My intentions were to convert that over to run on at least E85 then use all that I learned from that project to start converting other cars, like my 245 or A4 Audi. Then use the technology to be able to convert other peoples cars.

More to your tune I also have a, four door 100 series something or another that dad showed up with one day. For what ever reason he though an automatic would be ... cool? neat? different? source of frustration for me? All of that aside it is a better candidate to start on. The car is rusting out and never moving, so having a use for it would be good. Unlike my 242, it is in one piece (trans and motor actually IN the car) and would probably start (given the proper pep-talk).

For me to be able to effectively run a car on ethanol I would need higher compression (turbo?) and a much advanced spark (literally and technologically) so a waste spark system is most likely in order. http://www.directignition.com/products/xdi.html

My concern for you and propane is that, if I am not mistaken, propane is more expensive than the same quantity (btu, mass, gallon) of gasoline. Also, it is still a fossil fuel which means we are still some how funding the terrorists. Whereas, I know that the corn in my field came from me, the 5 bucks I need for seeds most likely came from an American farmer, the fencing came from American timber, the tractors are Farmalls and yes I am a good 'ol boy but I would much rather push my Volvo than drive a chevy.

I am NOT trying to be discouraging pain in the ass(like my dad)!

You were talking about a higher 10:1 compression for the propane. Is that enough to really take advantage of the increased octane?

Andrew