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It keeps stalling, intermittently, like it is running out of gas. I have replaced the fuel pump relay and the main fuel pump. But we still are having a problem.
I replaced the fuel pump last Friday we went all weekend and yesterday (including a 80 mile test drive on Friday and a 150 mile trip on Sunday) without any problems. What's the best way to test the in-tank pump without waiting for it fail again, if that is indeed the problem.
This morning when my wife was less than a mile from our house it stalled. She couldn't get to go any further without stalling, I was able to get it home.
When have been driving a while there is a slight smell of gas outside, not enough for me to even trace it to a source doesn't seem like it is in the engine compartment. Recirculation system perhaps?
Oh also, someone broke in (well, got in, I forgot to lock it) and stole the radio last night.
Big fun.
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So I think it is safe to say that this has been resolved. I thank everyone with suggestions. I am still going to replace the CPS and the wire that runs connects to the ignition system as a matter of maintenance but this is the break down for anyone doing a search.
The car was stalling like it was running out of gas.
I replaced the Main Fuel Pump, in tank fuel pump and in tank pump/fuel gauge assembly as well as the fuel pump relay. After all that I still experienced stalling. I cleaned the throttle plate assembly. All seems to be good now. I am going to run a tank of injector cleaner and I bet well be as right as rain.
If I knew then what I know now...
I would have tested the fuel pumps at the time of the stall by running a jumper from the #4 to the #6 fuse on the left side of the fuse box.
Both fuel pumps would still have had to been replaced because the in tank pump not running adds a lot of stress to the main pump and can cause it to fail.
Some key symptoms of the in tank pump failing is that it was stalling when the tank was less than half full (conveniently, next to a gas station so I eased it in and filled it up, it ran fine) and stalling on hills.
I had to replace the in tank assembly because one of the wires lost connection while I was replacing the pump. I found one in the bone yard that was in better shape than my old one.
The stalling related to the throttle body was in the mornings when it was cold and very damp.
I hope someone can learn from my mistakes. I was afraid I would fall out of love with my Volvo, alas she charms me like a needy child.
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Okay, I can go with the idea that it could be the crank position sensor. How's this for a scenario? All three engine mounts failed last year, could the engine 'bucking' around the compartment break the sensor or fray the wire causing an intermittent problem?
That being said, this is part of this diagnosis that I have trouble with. When it stalls I can usually restart it though it will run as if it has bad or too little gas. When I pull the wire on the crank position sensor out of the connector it just dies. Would a faulty crank position sensor just not kill the engine similarly?
Has anyone had this exact kind of stalling and traced it to the sensor?
I don't want to come off as if I am unappreciative of the advice given so far but I can't afford to keep replacing parts at random and wait to see if, days later it fails again.
I do appreciate all the input so far. I guess what I am saying is keep it coming.
Thanks
Paul
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Crank position sensor often fails intermittently at first. Then eventually fails completely.
I don't know if the sensor itself often goes bad. Very often the wire will go bad. Sensor comes with cable, it is one unit.
If your cable for cps has yellow tag then it is original - and I (we) would expect it to be bad by now. It is a shielded cable much like TV coax cable - when the metal shielding in cable sheath is damaged the signal is not transmitted.
You can see the cable for crank position on the firewall; it has a connector there. You can also see cable go down onto top of cps on back of engine, just behind + below the valve cover area. If cable looks bad then you need a new one.
IF you replace cps because cable is damaged or tag is yellow
AND THEN you still have problems with the car,
you should not feel as if you wasted your time or money.
If replaced for those reasons, the cable was already causing trouble, or was ready to cause trouble very soon.
--
Sven: '89 245 NA, 951 ECU, open-front airbox, E-fan, 205/65-15's, IPD sways, E-Codes, amber front corner reflectors, quad horns. Wifemobile '89 245 NA stock. 90 244 NA spare, runs.
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Would this be a problem?
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If it looks like that down at the sensor this could be the problem. The insulation on the wires fail and short out causing the engine to stall. Is the band on the wire yellow or white?
Dan
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posted by
someone claiming to be HerbC
on
Tue Mar 20 05:12 CST 2007 [ RELATED]
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Was a cheap Clarion. Not worth a bag of crack.
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I would pull the hose between the in-tank and main pump and crank the car. Of course, I do not smoke.
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Gas smell is my clue for this -
Go have a look at the top of the fuel tank. Connector plate at top of tank has hose connections for fuel in + out, also has electrical connections for in-tank pump and fuel gauge level sender. They rust away over the years. We had one that smelled, did not drip. But looking at connections while idling the motor showed fuel "sweating" on outside of connector pipe. Wipe it dry first so you can see it get wet. Use a flashlight so you can see well, it's dark in there.
In a sedan it's below the upper shelf in trunk. Pull back carpet and remove 2 screws + cover plate. Then you can see top of tank.
In a wagon you have to remove the plywood + carpet cargo area floor. Tilt up the rear of floor; one screw on each side. Drop rear seat back and find piano hinge, 6-8 screws there. Pull board away and remove cover plate with two screws. Then look down in into opening like in sedan.
The top-of-tank connections don't usually drip because the area is cup-shaped. The gas evaporates before it overflows and drips - but you smell it of course.
--
Sven: '89 245 NA, 951 ECU, open-front airbox, E-fan, 205/65-15's, IPD sways, E-Codes, amber front corner reflectors, quad horns. Wifemobile '89 245 NA stock. 90 244 NA spare, runs.
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Yes, sorry, shoulda mentioned this was already posted as a problem, which I thought was resolved.
Checked then connections on the top of the 'primary' pump ran it up and down the block a few types. No sweat or smell. Then I ran it with the fuse out. Car didn't stall. How can I reproduce the symptoms of a dying primary pump?
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"Primary pump" could be confusing.
I think you mean pre-pump, that is the in-tank pump.
Main pump is under car.
In-tank pump = pre-pump is inside tank.
Anyway, if pre-pump is bad, car will run better with full tank.
If HOSE inside tank has a hole, car will run badly when fuel drops to where the hole is. Like sipping a drink through a straw with a hole - very hard to do.
Running car with fuse out does not make sense. My understanding is that both pumps run off same fuse and of course no fuse = both pumps do not work = car will not run. I think maybe you removed some other fuse, not the fuel pump fuse.
Car will run without the pre-pump but maybe have problems with low fuel level or on hills. And it causes strain on the main pump. Main pump will have a shorter life in pre-pump is dead.
--
Sven: '89 245 NA, 951 ECU, open-front airbox, E-fan, 205/65-15's, IPD sways, E-Codes, amber front corner reflectors, quad horns. Wifemobile '89 245 NA stock. 90 244 NA spare, runs.
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"My understanding is that both pumps run off same fuse and of course no fuse = both pumps do not work = car will not run. I think maybe you removed some other fuse, not the fuel pump fuse."
The underlined part is incorrect. The Fuel relay sends voltage to the INPUT of fuse 4, and DIRECTLY from that point to the Main pump. The only pump fed from fuse 4 OUTPUT is the Tank pump.
Car could have run as poster says.
I'm wondering about the Crank Position Sender.
Or maybe the Power Stage.
Either one could be suspect on a 15-16 year old car.
--
Bruce Young
'93 940-NA (current), 240s (one V8), 140s, 122s, since '63.
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So again I pose the question: How do I cut power to the in-tank pump to see if it reproduces the stalling?
I don't think it is a spark problem based on the way it stalls. Electronic poops tend to cause the car to die suddenly or if it is tied to a single spark plug, violent shaking and misfiring.
What I am getting is a loss of power followed by a shudder then a die. Exactly like running out of gas. I can usually restart but with a lot of shudder and no power.
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You might take a close look at Fuse 6 and its spring contacts. It delivers the power to both the Fuel and Ignition systems. Like its predecessor, the 25Amp underhood blade fuse, bad contacts or corrosion can cause a variety of problems.
Those problems aren't as frequent with Fuse 6 (based on what I've seen here). But theoretically at least, it might be borderline or intermittent enough to make everything sputter before totally quitting. Then allowing current flow again after cooling down (it does get hot normally).
--
Bruce Young
'93 940-NA (current), 240s (one V8), 140s, 122s, since '63.
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posted by
someone claiming to be joseph morton
on
Tue Mar 20 04:05 CST 2007 [ RELATED]
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Remove fuse 4 and the tank pump will not run. You're just confused. The tank pump is not necessary if you have a full tank. Your car will not even notice the tank pump dying if you fill it up. So your method of looking for the real fault is faulty in itself. Better to listen to Lucid's (where have I read that before??) advice to check out the spark system if you can't measure your fuel pressure at the rail. Crank sensor or power stage symptoms would not feel like a bad plug.
Joe
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Two pumps is confusing for a guy used to running one mechanical pump in a old bug...
Yes we are talking about the in-tank pump. We have a full tank of gas right now. So I don't think it is the hose.
The fuses are indicated as:
#4 Fuel Feed (in-tank), Lambda-sond heating element
#6 Main Fuel Pump, Fuel injection
So I would guess that removing the #4 fuel pump would cause the in tank pump not to run.
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posted by
someone claiming to be joseph morton
on
Tue Mar 20 02:30 CST 2007 [ RELATED]
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"this is beginning to hurt" sorta implies there's some history behind this post, and whaddya know... there is.
http://www.brickboard.com/RWD/index.htm?id=1166146&show_all=1
Might help all you fuel gurus to see what has been advised already.
Joe
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Thanks - I just now read the earlier thread.
Main pump failure often starts as intermittent.
I think the relay can also be intermittent.
Anyway, I still vote for the top of fuel tank connections.
Possibly you'll find a leak below, somewhere near the main pump or along the lines between tank and engine, but I'd look at top of tank first.
Unfortunately, the "connector plate" I described is actually the top part of the fuel gauge level sender unit. Sender + tank cover plate + fuel + electrical connections is all one piece and costs something like $130-140 from fcpgroton.com. You assemble the pump + hose + sock filter onto that unit. About $200 for all parts. I recommend the tool from IPD, that's another $30-40 depending on shipping method.
Take a look at top of tank. Bring a plastic brush to brush away rusty mess you will probably find. Steel wire brush = sparks = not a good idea around fuel.
--
Sven: '89 245 NA, 951 ECU, open-front airbox, E-fan, 205/65-15's, IPD sways, E-Codes, amber front corner reflectors, quad horns. Wifemobile '89 245 NA stock. 90 244 NA spare, runs.
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