posted by
someone claiming to be clarence
on
Fri Jul 13 12:42 CST 2007 [ RELATED]
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Hello all,
I tried to post this question yesterday but can't find it.
I removed my instrument panel (tach, speedo etc) to repair the odometer gear and then decided to take a drive with the instrument panel removed. After about 20 miles, the car stalled on me - not be restarted.
Alternator is good - verified by Pep Boys' test equipment.
The car starts if jumpered with another car - then dies a minute or so later after unlinking the two cars.
Even with the car running, instrument panel installed, nothing registers on the instrument panel (no tach, not speed, no gas, temp).
Checking the voltage with the car running shows it linearly decreasing from 11.8v down to 8.5 - where the components start turning off. Then I suspect the fuel pump stops getting power and the engine dies.
Any linkage between the dash and the alternator's function?
thanks guys,
clarence
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Just a thought...I haven't read this entire novella.
On my 89, I had similar symptoms. I had a short on the driver's side fender...the rail with the infamous 25 amp fuse. It was under the black plastic cover.
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Hi Chuck,
That's a good way to keep all the power out of the inside of the car, isn't it. Kind of a vulnerable spot there, too.
Buried a few more posts down in this thread is the answer Clarence posted - a problem with the flex fuse in the cluster.
--
Art Benstein near Baltimore
Middle age is when you choose your cereal for the fiber, not the joy.
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posted by
someone claiming to be clarence
on
Mon Jul 16 07:11 CST 2007 [ RELATED]
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Still Not working:
The latest suggestion was to use a test light between the alternator and the battery and see if it lights. I didn't quite understand how to do that so that test has not been performed.
I did ground the exciter wire (D+) with the key in pos. II to check the idiot lights. No Lights.
Any other suggestions?
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Hi Clarence,
I have a suggestion. Register. That way you can get email notification of updates to your post. You'll be able to find your post if it gets a bit stale, and so will others.
Also, don't reply to your own post if you have questions about a suggestion. Replies to your own post only send email to you. No one may read it! Reply to the post of the fellow brick owner making the suggestion in an attempt to help.
The test you're (not) trying with the light bulb is meant to prove the alternator is OK, without knowing the condition of the D+ wiring circuitry. No need, you've already confirmed your trouble is in the cluster you had removed. I was really hoping the effort I made to label and trace that printed wiring would help you find the break in the circuit. I'm confident you'll find it! But it is still fun trying.
Look in the cluster. Register. Just free advice, you don't have to use it.
--
Art Benstein near Baltimore
A grenade thrown into a kitchen in France would result in Linoleum Blownapart.
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posted by
someone claiming to be clarence
on
Wed Jul 18 09:30 CST 2007 [ RELATED]
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Thanks everyone for all the ideas - and I'll register now.
I had to take the car in to the shop.
I replaced the flexible fuse backwards - at least that's what they told me. I checked for continuity on the opposite side of the circuit board - so I don't know how a backwards fuse could have been the culprit, but I'm forced to believe it.
cost: $200.
F.
thanks again everyone.
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Ouch. That stings. And I don't have a clue what they're talking about, unless they meant up-side down. So the screw head didn't make contact or something. But I'm not sure even that could be a problem.
Sometimes you just have to get the ride going again pronto. Thanks for returning to give us the ending. It should help someone else someday.
--
Art Benstein near Baltimore
WARNING: The consumption of alcohol may create the illusion that you are tougher, smarter, faster and better looking than most people.
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Yes you do need the cluster installed in order for the alternator to work. The alternator needs 12 volts to energize the electromagnetic field in order to charge the battery once the car is running. It gets this from the small red wire that is connected to the alternator through the battery / charge failure light on the cluster. Dan
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posted by
someone claiming to be clarence
on
Fri Jul 13 14:31 CST 2007 [ RELATED]
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So I've reinstalled the cluster - but the same symptoms occur: starts with jump, dies after a minute, no readings on the instrument cluster.
have I fried something by driving without the cluster?
Thanks a ton
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I don't know if you fried anything but first make sure the battery is fully charged. Dan
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posted by
someone claiming to be clarence
on
Sat Jul 14 08:11 CST 2007 [ RELATED]
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yep - with a fully charged battery I can start the car, but it dies in about a minute.
I had a voltmeter on the battery and watched the voltage reach about 8.5 with no fluctuations like the alternator should give it. Since the alternator is known to be good - this suggests a broken link somewhere between the alternator and the battery. If there is a link that could get fried by having the cluster out - that would be my culprit.
Any ideas?
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Are you reading the battery volts while cranking the starter? This is the only way I could see the battery dropping to 8.5V. If that is the case the battery is shot. A good battery is going to read between 12 and 13V before loading it with the starter and only a volt or 2 less while the starter is going and then recover to 12V immediately. Dan
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posted by
someone claiming to be clarence
on
Sat Jul 14 11:19 CST 2007 [ RELATED]
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The voltage starts around 12v - then over the course of 1 to 3 minutes steadily decreases to 8.5v whereupon the car cuts out.
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I think the battery may not be as "fully charged" as you think. Especially if you see only a fluctuating 8.5V on your meter.
• Do the warning lights come on with the key turned to position II (On but not cranking)?
If NO, the cluster circuit is still not right.
Check the small, right-angle connector (3 wires) on the back of the speedo. This is frequently overlooked the first time or two.
BTW, this is a GUESS, assuming that your car is an '86 or newer.
The YEAR should be posted with the car MODEL.
If YES, that's good.
But maybe not good enough if the battery is low. There could be enough initial voltage for the warning lights, but it gets dragged waaay down when cranking — and could make the pre-exitation current too weak to get the Alternator charging magnetism developed.
--
Bruce Young
'93 940-NA (current), 240s (one V8), 140s, 122s, since '63.
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posted by
someone claiming to be clarence
on
Sat Jul 14 11:21 CST 2007 [ RELATED]
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There are no warning lights at any time - however the high beam indicator and the turn signal indicators work.
It is a 1989 - thanks.
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>Alternator is good - verified by Pep Boys' test equipment.
Hmmm. I'm skeptical this means the alternator is good.
But if a charged battery goes to 8.5 in a minute, either it is shot or something's getting hot enough to fry your breakfast on. Do we know what year of car you have? All I see is "ALL". The 93's had "links" I thinks.
--
-K (hope springs eternal)
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posted by
someone claiming to be clarence
on
Sat Jul 14 09:17 CST 2007 [ RELATED]
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It's an '89.
sorry about that.
I'm leaning toward the "exciter" as my problem. Having trouble figuring out how to test it.
Thanks for all the help guys,
clarence
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Hi there,
Sure the exciter might not work, but I can drive an 89 at least 20 miles on a charged but not charging battery. Something else you're assuming isn't right. It is true what you're being told about a battery reading 8.5V. It is either ready for the recycler or something's about to catch fire, if as you claim, it is fully charged.
Do you have the ground connected on the alternator? Did Pep Boys sell you the one you're using? Check all the wires are connected on the cluster - particularly the speedometer connector Lucid mentions, and tell us just a little bit more about your situation. How about those warning lights?
--
Art Benstein near Baltimore
Those who jump off a Paris bridge are in Seine.
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posted by
someone claiming to be clarence
on
Sat Jul 14 11:25 CST 2007 [ RELATED]
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Hi - thanks for sticking with me on this.
Since this is far down on the post, I'll restate some important facts and try to make the new facts concise.
**Drove the car without the instrument cluster for about 30 miles - then - the car stalled and wouldn't restart.
**Reinstalled the cluster, charged the battery to 12v - Engine starts - then drains the battery to 8.5v and the car cuts out (there is no fluctuation at the battery as should be seen with a charging alternator).
**Pep boys did not sell me the alternator, but they did test it for me yesterday. I pulled it from a yard about a month ago.
**Battery is 3 years old
**NO WARNING LIGHTS on the instrument cluster at all with key in pos. 2
***high beam indicator and blinker lights work.
**NO SPEEDO/TACH/FUEL GAUGE/TEMP GAUGE when engine runs or with key in pos. 2
**The alternator is grounded.
I can't think of any other info that could help.
If there were a fuse between the alternator and the instrument cluster - I feel like that would be the culprit - but I don't know of one.
Thanks for the support guys.
clarence
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Looks like the battery may be shot. I would have it load tested. 200 amps for 15 seconds and the terminal voltage should be at least 9-10v. Running on battery only is normally OK for 10-20 mi but that may have killed it in this case.
--
1986 Volvo 240DL wagon
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posted by
someone claiming to be clarence
on
Sat Jul 14 13:26 CST 2007 [ RELATED]
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Battery failed a test.
Bought a new one.
Installed.
No change.
Ugghh.
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If your instrument panel warning lamps do not come on when you put the key in run with the engine off, your exiter wire will not work. Are you sure you have all of the instrument panel connectors on. You have to push quite hard to get the large round connector fully seated.
Driving the car without the instument panel will not hurt the alternator. I have driven mine for extended periods without one. You should also be able to drive for quite awhile without an alternator on a fully charged battery. If your car is running a good fully charged battery flat in half an hour, something on your car is drawing way too much power. I drove one of my 240s for a whole summer with a dead alternator. I was a student and did not want to spend the money on an alternator. I just put it on a battery charger every couple of days.
Have you checked the alt warning lamp bulb? I don't know why, but bulbs seem to burn out when you take the cluster out.
If you want to check your exciter wire put the key in the run position and the engine off. If you put a voltmeter on the red exciter wire (black wire grounded) you should get 12 volts.
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posted by
someone claiming to be clarence
on
Sat Jul 14 15:21 CST 2007 [ RELATED]
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correct me if I'm wrong:
The exciter wire is in the circular connector - #11 (red).
I found this plug to have continuity with the thin red wire (D+) of my alternator.
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posted by
someone claiming to be clarence
on
Sat Jul 14 15:06 CST 2007 [ RELATED]
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yeah - the circular connector is all the way in and the battery bulb has continuity across it.
So that checks.
Thaks very much for the brain power. I'm running out of mine.
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Hi Jessie,
Your words are right on. The one question - the one Lucid asked about the speedometer plug never got answered, and that's likely where the trouble lies.
In the 89, four bulbs are in parallel to do what the "batt" light used to do by itself long ago. Not much chance of a burned-out bulb being the culprit anymore.
The exciter voltage comes in on the speedometer plug (red/black on the 89) - it is unfused from the ignition switch at that point. There is a fuse inside the cluster - a piece of flex circuit between two screws - see my speedometer pix on http://cleanflametrap.com. The voltage to get the alternator going has to make it through there.
The battery can't be deemed charged just because he reads 12V on it. If the battery was indeed charged up (old or new) the car would run 20 miles like it did before and like you've done yourself with the cluster out of the dash.
A very easy way to get the alt. charging without an instrument panel is to disconnect the D+ (exciter) wire at the alt. and bridge the B+ and D+ terminals with a small test lamp similar to a dash lamp. Eliminates all the other unknowns.
--
Art Benstein near Baltimore
Always keep several get well cards on the mantel. If unexpected guests arrive, they'll think you've been sick and unable to clean.
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posted by
someone claiming to be clarence
on
Sat Jul 14 15:05 CST 2007 [ RELATED]
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I really appreciate all this help.
I'm pretty sure the L-connector is seated correctly - I've replaced the cluster so many times today I think I would have gotten it right once. But I'll check it again specifically.
The flex circuit you are talking about - if it is located directly over the speedo casing on the back of the cluster - I have continuity on that circuit. Does that mean it's not the culprit?
thanks again,
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Hi Clarence,
You're getting close. Yes, that sounds like a good description of the flex fuse as I call it.
Your warning lights and gauges all get power through that L connector. The connector itself is known to be trouble - gets loose, wears a rut in the board edge, even the insulation displacement wire connection can give trouble with too much handling. Anyway, you could have fixed it this morning if you had a diagram, so I'll describe the power path.
In on the L connector - right back out of the speedo to pass through that flex fuse. From there it splits - back into the speedo to power it, and to printed runs along the cluster feeding one side of most of the warning lamps. Through the battery light to the red wire in pin 11 of the round connector, but also in parallel with the battery light, are the bulb-out, brake failure, and parking lamps isolated with diodes.
Look for a problem with the speedometer connector, or a burned trace as a result of an accidental short circuit - remember the clock has constant battery so you might want to lift fuse #8 while poking around that tight place behind the cluster as it rests on the steering wheel.
Here are some looks at an 89 cluster's board I've used to help trace circuits. The first one shows about where someone had a break in the ground foil due to an accidental short while working on it.
--
Art Benstein near Baltimore
“Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others.”
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Hi Clarence,
Art as always is right on the money with his posts. Above he said disconnect the D+ wire to the alternator and put a bulb across between D+ and B+ like a small interior cabin light 5 watts or so with wires on, that will provide excitation to the alternator. Start the car the bulb should not be glowing when it is running and measuring the battery voltage with a test meter (not the car accessory voltmeter) before, during and after starting will tell you what is happening. If the battery is charged it should show 12 plus volts before starting with everything turned off, if the battery is good it should show at least 10 volts whilst cranking and as soon as it starts at high idle the voltage should jump up the 13.6 to 14 volts or so range, if it does not the alternator is toast.
Having proved the battery, alternator and B+ wire from the alternator to the battery then you reconnect the D+ wire and know the problem is up in the instrument panel, look for blown tracks as Art said and bad connection to the instrument panel.
Regards,
Checkpoint Charlie
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posted by
someone claiming to be clarence
on
Sat Jul 14 16:33 CST 2007 [ RELATED]
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thanks a ton.
I did check out your site - pretty detailed info, clean. Impressive.
Currently - pin 11 on the round connector does not get a voltage when key is in pos. 2. So that must mean something is wrong on the L-connector?
I'll use your last post to help narrow it down.
Thanks again,
Clarence
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posted by
someone claiming to be clarence
on
Sat Jul 14 17:02 CST 2007 [ RELATED]
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The red wire on the L connector has 12v when key is in pos. 2.
I guess now I have to check the continuity between Red on L-connector to pin 11 on round connector..
thinking out loud
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