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After much waiting for day over 32 degree F, I had a chance to go at my crippled Amazon today. After removing the radiator and fan and expecting to find a busted timing gear, I was rewarded with a perfect gear perfectly aligned to it's timing marks.... wtf?
So, that out of the way, I buttoned the car back up and went back at the timing/distributor/distributor gear. After re-arranging my wires for the Nth time, I was finally rewarded with a hesitant firing and finally a running engine.
It's not running very well, but it is running. I figure my timing is still not right, but I need some help to get that sorted out.
#1 Smiths Tach. I have a working crane/allison ignition unit. It is not new, so I had no intructions for it. I had to unhook the wire between my Smiths Tach and the capacitor. I can't figure out how to get this wired up with the electronic ignition. One end for sure goes to the coil +, but the end that went to the capacitor has no home. It kills the engine if I touch it to anything, so I figure it needs a hot wire of some sort (not ground). Should it go to the second wire split out from my cut coil wire to ignition unit, or should it go somewhere else (fusebox block maybe)? I need my tach working so I can set my idle and timing.
#2 The car now requires half choke to start and run, but it is definitely running rich and still running poorly. It sounds "off" and is kicking a fair amount of smoke from the tailpipe. I've been able to shut the choke off for a bit, but the car almost immediately starts to make sharp backfire/misfire sounds and quickly dies. Minor rotations of distributor only make this worse... Trying to drive the car when it is running like this quickly kills the engine with similar fanfare.
Considering the unpleasant way the car ran a few weeks back, I wonder if I am just now getting the engine back to the point it was at when it failed me. That is, I'm back to the problem I parked it because of, now that I've sorted out my ignition monkey business.
#3 I've read how to set static timing, but I seem to be missing something there. I've checked Ron Kwas site and checked, adjusted, and confirmed that the distributor gear is oriented correctly to 0 BTC degrees and with #1 cylinder at TDC. However, unless I overlooked it, there is no direction on orienting the rest of the distributor housing - especially when you've got a chopper wheel and optical sensor. I think some of my troubles stem from not being sure that a loosened housing and cap is oriented properly to the rotor. I figured that rotor should be point to the #1 wire plug on the cap when all is in static sync, but that did not work for me. I had to adjust it pretty far back to get it to start and run. It would not work at all when I had the points-distributor in there...
Am I missing something here, or could this itself be a symptom or the cause of my original engine problem?
As far as the previous suggestions I had water in the fuel, etc, I flushed the carbs and cleaned everything. with so many variables, I can't be sure if I fixed it or if it was ever a problem in the first place.
So, thanks for all the help so far! If you can help me pull her over the last hump, I'll be very happy back behind the wheel of my Swedish iron.
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With the points, it's pretty much impossible to get the timing too far out of whack with the rotor position, in that the spark will occur when the rotor is pretty close to the proper terminal in the cap.
However, the optical systems are generic in nature, and provide a lot of leeway in installing. There are various ways the chopper wheels can fit on, and the sensor can often be adjusted through a fairly large arc. Trouble is, you can get the sensor out of proper alignment with the distributor body, so that when the spark occurs (regardless of timing) the rotor isn't very close to the proper terminal.
This is something you could set up even with the distributor out of the car, as it doesn't have naything to do with the timing (overall rotation of the distributor body), just the positioning of the sensor in relation to the chopper wheel. So that when the slot in the wheel hits the sensor, the rotor is roughly pointing at the #1 position in the distributor (often indicated with a notch, or line).
The new Crane units make things very nice by having an LED on the box that lights when the sensor is triggered. Or you could just crank it and use a timing light on a grounded coil wire, see where it is in relation to the #1 position when it spark (ignore the 3 other sparks).
--
'63 PV544 rat rod, '93 Classic #1141 245 +t
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John;
Good call...I thought of this possibility also, particularily since the distributor and points have been changed...I've always called this "the bottom (lobeshaft) and top (rotor) being missaligned"...and it occurs after dissassembly and incorrect reassembly... but I would expect this to show up when doing static timing...you just wouldn't get a spark routed to the plugs...but then again...maybe you would get a spark statically, and then no more once the centrifugal advance rotates the lobeshaft a bit...
RJ; Do you fully understand what John is explaining? Try to check this out...check where the rotor is pointing when spark is triggered...then think of centrifugal advance...
Good Hunting
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I've got a sense of it, I think. I was able to get the car going again after looking where the chopper wheel was in relation to the rotor.
Here'e a rough indication of the rotor and chopper wheel inside the distributor housing. I adjusted things until the slot on the chopper wheel was pointing to the optical sensor and the rotor was pointing at the #1 spark. This did not quite do it and I had to adjust the distributor housing around before it started to fire and run.
3
. .
. \ / .
. \ / .
1 <--- R---< 4
. / \ .
. / \ .
OS .
2
Soo... should I be able to trigger a timing light strobe just by turning the engine by the crank? I did not think I could, but that would help quite a bit.
By the way, regarding my tach, I kept typing capacitor when I meant condenser. I really need some advice on where the white tach wires needs to go now that I no longer have a capacitor...
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I only mentioned this because I managed to get the Crane system on my car out of whack once. The sparks were occuring when the rotor was in between the terminals. Correct timing and all, but it acted funny when running as the sparks didn't always want to jump that far, or to the right terminal.
--
'63 PV544 rat rod, '93 Classic #1141 245 +t
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I'm liking this theory as well... one of my suggestions was going to be to s*** can that electronic ignition... if only temporarily and for diagnostic sake. But Jack said he was getting spark, so I didn't figure there was much point in that...
Sure would be nice if you had an extra distributor with points (or do you?)... less than 5 minutes to just try a different one...
--
-Matt I ♥ my ♂
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I would step back and check everything (i.e. complete tune up - valve adjustment[make sure the cam is in good shape], replace plugs, check resistence of wires, cap, rotor etc.). Check the firing order! 1-4-3-2 Counterclockwise (I'm not sure if I'm right or not, but I picked up a '66 122 B18/M41 J-type for $150 because the shop that worked on it setup the wires as if it was a 240 [which is the opposite direction than the 122]-the car ran, but ran like ****).
I like the idea of stepping back to a point dizzy to eliminate that upgrade as a possible problem. I used a crane system on a 122, never had a problem, but checking to make sure it's firing #1 at the right position would be a good check too.
That's my 2 cents.
Paul
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Firing order is 1 3 4 2. Not 1 4 3 2.
Cameron
Rose City
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Are you guys sure?! I can watch that rotor turn clockwise when I turn the crankshaft. Also the car is only now running because I have the wires installed running clockwise 1-3-4-2. I tried swapping 3 & 4 (1-3-4-2 if it is spining counterclockwise and it would not start at all...
I'll need to check all this again...
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In your initial post, you mentioned checking the timing gears and that the timing marks were aligned.
Just to be sure - you know that when the marks are aligned, that cylinder 4 is at top dead center, right? Not cylinder 1.
Good luck!
Cameron
Rose City
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Humm. did not know that, but I only check the timing mark alignment to make sure no teeth had skipped. I did not check TDC at that time. I've only looked for TDC when trying to set my static timing.
Counter eh... man what the heck..? Maybe that's why this is such a deja-vu sort of experience. My B20E went all nutty when I transplanted it back in November 2006... You'd think I remember if this was the ultimate problem.
I'm still an ignition and carb novice, but I've been into every other system in the car. These are (obviously) the last two areas where I still do no feel fully competent.
Thanks for the patience and advice.
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The direction the rotor turns will depend on which way you're turning the crank. But when the engine's running, the rotor is traveling counterclockwise.
If you got the engine to run by placing the wires as you say, then something else is really wonky with your ignition. Back up, start over. From scratch. Sorry.
Best,
Cameron
Rose City
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Glad somebody is watching me! I never really play with the firing order. I'm usually very careful to remove one plug at a time and replace whatever new part very carefully.
There is times that something happens and I have to check to see what is the correct order. I usually go find it in a book or go look at another car.
Am I correct that the B18/B20s go counterclockwise and the B21/B23/B230s go clockwise?
Paul
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B18 and 20 engine dizzies turn counterclockwise. B16: clockwise.
I don't know what the later OHC engines do exactly. They can last forever, but I don't much care for anything Volvo did after about 1970. Not to insult the newer models - they're great - just that my own enthusiasm lies further in the past.
Best,
Cameron
Rose City
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Is this the car with the fuel problem a couple of months ago?
Paul
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Yep, I first thought that the stalling and poor running that made be take it home was a fuel issue, but I think I've ruled that out now. When I tried to trace the problem, I found that my #4 wire was not sparking at all. I changed wires, cap and rotor and then the car would not run at all. It went downhill pretty quick after that.
Someone has already suggested the condensor as a likely problem, and when I could not find a new only locally, I decided to replace the ignition altogether. Then it got worse...
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Just wondering if you have done a compression test? Sounds as though you are down on compression from the symptoms that you describe. A quick test is to remove all four sparkplugs, if you dont have a compression gauge, and have someone crank the motor. Try blocking each plug hole using your thumb and see what sort of pressure is being developed - you might find some of the cylinder a bit down on pressure.
Also the difference in cranking speed with and without plugs will also tell you a lot about the state of the engine.
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I ran a compression test recently. 175-180 psi on all four cylinders.
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Good that it's running! Will it run on its own? As in... can you start it and get out and fiddle with it while its running? If so, loosen the distributor just enough that you can turn it, and move the timing while it's running. See if you can find a happier spot. If you have to stay on the gas pedal to keep it running... try to find an assistant to do the inside part of the work.
Running rich fouls them plugs. Sorry I keep bringing that up.. but it's a fact. And.. what kind of plugs are you running?
--
-Matt I ♥ my ♂
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Well, not running rich by choice.
I'm running NGK BPH...something..6..? Don't recall exactly
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Crane XR700 instructions:
http://www.cranecams.com/pdf/90000700.pdf
Is that the correct one? It is the one on my car.
--
Mr. Shannon DeWolfe -- (I've taken to using Mr. because my name tends to mislead folks on the WWW. I am a 51 year old fat man ;-) -- KD5QBL
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Humm.. close, there's a section in there on Smiths tachs...
My Electronic Ignition unit is actually an "Allison" and several years old. It was wired up to my wagon when I bought it, and I simply transplanted it with the distributor from wagon's dead B18B to it new B20E and again over to my sedan's present B18B. The wagon did not have a tach so I've had no guide.
I was hoping that someone could just tell me where the old condenser wire needs to go...
Thanks!
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Repairman,
The condenser is removed from the system when the electronic ignition is installed.
--
Mr. Shannon DeWolfe -- (I've taken to using Mr. because my name tends to mislead folks on the WWW. I am a 51 year old fat man ;-) -- KD5QBL
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Hi,
A lot of this is sounding way complicated and above me, also I only vaguely remamber the previous post. But this sounds a lot like how my car was running once not long ago when I pulled all the plug wires off at once. I then put them back on in the correct firing order, But the car would not run, or after switching the wires around still ran like crap. Then I realized that my dizzy was 180 degrees off fromwhere I thought #1 cyl. was. If the dizzy was put in 180 degrees off your #1 plug wire is in the back.
Just a thought.
CU
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Thanks for the sympathy. You're pretty close on. I must have hooked the wires up wrong if the rotor spins counter clockwise. Surprising that it runs at all.
What has really been the problem is what Ron and John were mentioning. The distributor has been over-rotated and I can't find my way back (easily)
And I do know that I have no condensor any longer, but I still have to hook that old wire up someplace to get the tach to work...
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