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You may recall that many weeks back, I had to return home when my car started running very poorly, sputtering and dying. This was on one of the first very cold days of the season, and the results were me limping the car home and wondering what was wrong. This led me into a chain of events with my ignition system questions about fuel contamination, sparks, wires, coils, ignition switches, caps, rotors, distributor gears, compression strokes, and firing direction. That problem did not come to an end until the new year.
Exactly one week ago, on the way to work, my electronic ignition died a rather final death. It was however proceeded by rough running, sputtering highway speeds, back firing, misfiring and then not firing at all. I had to take the day off work, swap my distributor in the middle of the largest urban park outside of Central Park in NY, and drive the car merrily home. the weather warmed up somewhat and things have been performing OK since last Thursday using a regular points dizzy.
Considering my fuel economy issues, I've been driving will little to no choke when the car is still cold - and only using full choke to start the car.
Well. Temps have dropped quite a bit today, and returning from work, the car ran a little badly at first. It took a while for the engine to really get to a good operating temp so I pulled off a waited for a while. It was running fine, so I headed off towards home...
It got very bad on the interstate when power suddenly vanished. The car kept running, but would start to die under load. I limped it off the interstate onto a side street. It then sputtered and died while on a gradual incline. It started right back up and I dealt with very low power and coasting until I got to a large parking lot. Leaving the car idling I richened my air/fuel mix two flats and sat for a bit idling. I decided to stay off the interstate and take side-streets home.
When I left the parking lot, I was treated to norming running and power. This kept up for several miles and hills until not long after I passed the site of my last breakdown (same park). I climbed and descended several hills - including a steep one in front of the art museum.
While making the last, somewhat gradual, climb out of the park, I again got some sputtering and lost power. I pulled off for a bit let the car idle until it seemed normal, and then set off on my way with normal power. This did not last as long and I had to pull off and stop several times. Power was failing and the car sputtered and died a several times. I pulled off much closer to home, shut the car off and drained the glass dome of my fuel pump. Plenty of liquid/fuel in there. Got her going again with good power for a few hundred yard until I got over the last big hill between me and home.
I got the car close to home and stopped at the closest gas station.
My mileage with conservative driving and no choke this week?? 16.7 mpg. Barely 1 mpg improvement! WTF?
So... She sputtered a bit the last few blocks home (which was all downhill).
This is very similar to what took me off the road last 2007, but it was not nearly so bad. I've been through two or three tanks of gas since my initial similar performance problem back in December. My initial thought is water, or now a chunk of ice, in the tank. I'm clueless as to how I could get that out when frozen.
However, this may still be an ignition problem. I'm not getting of the pops one usually hears when the fuel is too weak nor am I getting any of the backfires or weird smoke that would make me think my points are bad. I'm sure this is some basic mechanical problem, but I'm running out of ideas. If it were water, you'd think I'd have the problems when the weather was warm and that I'd be through it after a few tanks of fuel. I use only reputable fuel stations and not the same one every time.
This is really getting ridiculous. It is way too cold to be playing these games with the car...
If open to any and all suggestions on solving this problem.
Here's a few bits on my present setup that might be relevant:
-Stock Points Dizzy no vacuum mechanisms
-New Condenser (July)
-New Points (July)
-Blue Bosch Coil 140-series (Last Week)
-Magnecore Wires (Older, but work fine)
-NGK BP6HS Plugs (July)
-Bosch cap/rotor (July)
-Bosch 35Amp Alternator/Regulator
-1800E Radiator/Fan/Shroud
-Mobil1 10W40, Recently changed
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Air temp hit 55 degree F today, so I took a stab at my poor running problem. The problem did persist in the warmer weather so I'm fairly sure there's no ice-block in my fuel tank.
The culprit was the in-line disposable fuel filter. It looked just fine (it is translucent plastic), but after filing my carbs manually and redirecting my fuel line to a spare gas can, I could see that the fuel pressure was *way* too low, putting on a brand-new spare filter (which I keep in my trunk) restored normal fuel flow. Reinstalling the line and test-driving the car revealed no more fuel starvation and normal operation.
I guess I cannot trust that a fairly clear plastic filter is okay. I'd omit this filter entirely since it is between the AC pump's filter screen and the carbs, but it seems better to deal with a clog in the line than with some unseen, difficult to access clog inside the carbs.
Still no clues on my poor fuel economy or why my ignition went kaput the week before this problem appeared. Probably a coincidence...
So thanks for the input and suggestions, fuel supply was the problem and it turned out to be a pretty obvious problem.
My lesson is not to trust that a disposable fuel filter is okay, even if it looks fairly clean. I guess I could have fixed it on the spot if I was not (as 'classic volvo shop' claims) hostile, aggressive, cheap, ignorant, and paranoid.
I'll know what to check for the next time this happens and I'll continue to drive with a spare filter in the trunk. Next time, I'll use it on the spot - as long as it is not 10 degrees F plus wind chill...
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I've had very good results with POR-15. I bought an Alfa Spider that the owner had been driving with a portable 6 gallon boat tank in the trunk. The walls of the car's fuel tank were solid enough but the inside was unbelievably rusty. I shared a gallon with a friend with an equally rusty Triumph TR3. It took one weekend for the whole process and I never had a problem afterwards.
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posted by
someone claiming to be Me
on
Sun Jan 27 00:48 CST 2008 [ RELATED]
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Congratulations on finding partial the problem.
Still, remember that all the sh*t in you life isn't caused by me, so try raise yourself from the sandbox in the kindergarden. There's absolutely no reason for keep trying to smuther my name, so now I kindly ask you to stop your war - use all your fantastic skills on everything else - much better spend - and let what's said be said.
Your ongoing accusations and cry-baby hints here and there will do neither me or you no good - so try just accept that there ARE other people in the World than those you like and there IS still plenty of room.
Just remember, BrickBoard.com isn't your's - so keep it clean for everybodys enjoyment. Thank you.
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You know, I really have no interest in what you have to say.
You suggested that I was suffering from burnt valves. Okay, thanks for the suggestion, but I need more to go on before I yank my engine head.
When I asked simply what specifically made you think I had burnt valves, you flew off the handle at my "joke" reference to this being the same car that you were interested in buying and stripping for parts back in July 07. Small world eh?
You started acting like a child a calling me names, claiming that I was "smuthering" your name and now you keep posting your crap in my threads.
If you had the maturity to register yourself on this site, I'd simply "ignore" you and we could both be happy and never have to cross paths. Since you have an irrational fear of being spammed, I suggest that you not respond to any of my posts or to my innocent attempts to help out other drivers in similar need.
Simply, I'll avoid you if you avoid me. Both are happy, things are quiet.
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posted by
someone claiming to be Me
on
Sun Jan 27 04:29 CST 2008 [ RELATED]
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YOU! engaged war - it's THAT simple. I'll take your offer and hope it will make your life easier. :-)
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posted by
someone claiming to be ikiller
on
Tue Jan 29 08:14 CST 2008 [ RELATED]
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While Repairman Jack can be excitable and often writes much more than he tinkers (most likely due to the weather), he has been consistently civil and exceedingly enthusiastic. You on the other hand have consistently acted like a bully while spouting "facts" without context, or explanation. There is no need to make personal attacks because someone doesn't hold the same opinion, has less experience, or wishes to find out for themselves the hard way. If someone questions your statements, don't take it personally, and use it as an opportunity to place your well reasoned thoughts in cyberspace for perpetuity. You often learn more yourself when you take the time to teach someone else.
So while it appears you have a lot of experience and opinions to share, please keep your comments within the technical realm. Luckily this board has remained civil enough that we don't have to sign in to post, let's try to keep it that way.
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Thanks for the vote of confidence.
Sorry I am so verbose with so many postings, but my mechanical knowledge is very "uneven."
I feel I should explain the problem and circumstances thoroughly, but I probably write way too much, even now.... :)
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Lots of information and explanation is good. Don't change your writing style.
I hate internet shorthand and posts that read
"Hello, my "Xy***z" has broken, how do I fix it" with no other information. You then have to spend a day or two posting back and forth finding out the facts before you can suggest a cause or method. Admitting at the outset how knowlegeable you are, is always a help too.
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sorry this keeps coming up in here distracting others from honest help.
Unfortunately I cannot just hit the "Ignore" button when the guy refuses to log in.
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guys, take it off line
AMEN!!!!
Bob S.
--
'62 PV544 (B20, M41), '71 142E, '93 240 Classic Wagon.
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I had a similar problem with a fuel filter... because I installed it backwards. All the sediment collected inside the paper element where I couldn't see it. I only discovered the problem by holding the filter up against the sun, and noticing that there appeared to be something dark inside the paper element. I felt pretty stupid...
Bill
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After draining about a gallon of rusty brown fuel from the tank of my S**b 96 I gravity drained it through a new filter fitted by a tube to a large funnel. By the time I'd got to the end of the gallon the flow had reduced to a broken trickle. What came through was still brown which just shows how fine rust can be. Also confirms just how quickly the blocked filter filter will stop the fuel getting to the carbs. If the filter is between the pump and the carb, as it usually is, the back pressure it creates as it blocks up will keep opening the valve in the pump. The pump valve opens and closes when the float chamber needle valve opens and closes. As the filter blocks up it will have the same effect so little fuel will pass the filter. The tell tale sign is virtually no fuel showing in the filter. It will usually fill up when you first start up but you can virtually watch it reduce to nothing as it sits ticking over. Surprisingly it will usually keep running for a long time like this, as the car needs little fuel at tick over. If you put the filter before the pump it will keep most of the muck out of the pump and it will then suck harder and harder as the filter becomes blocked.
I was down to using an electric pump with a filter either side on the S**b but a clean tank will be going in!
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Just adding an extra bit re my S**b saga and posibly relevant here. When there is a lot of loose rust/muck/flakes of tank coating in the fuel these are drawn to the tank pick up where they will gradually block the opening. When the car splutters to a halt and you go round checking everything, this is where you'll note that there is no fuel in the filter. If I left my car for half an hour or so it would always start because the muck had drifted away from the pick up and the pump would immediately fill the carb up again. Usually it would stop in tick over traffic, where the mechanical pump was only working slowly and there were no bumps to dislodge the muck, but out on the road it just kept enough fuel flowing. The final straw was it not starting again after filling up at a busy gas station. Luckily I got some help to push it out from amongst the throng of cars.
The large particles in the tank block the pick up and the fine rust blocks the filter. Not a good combination. If the tank has only fine rust in it then replacing the filter frequently should get you by. Larger flakes in the tank will make the stops more unpredictable but blowing back through the pipe towards the tank might get you on your way a bit quicker.
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this car's original fuel tank has both of the problems you describe for your...er... Saab...? After being brought out of 22 year storage and filled up, the car would run for a bit but soon starve and die.
The seller thought the problem was the fuel pump and swapped a new fuel pump, car ran okay for a while. He even drove it out to the pickup spot for my purchase. The running did not last and it did not take me long after changing the opaque fuel filter and pump to get it running again. But that did not last and I quickly found that the problem was an amazing volume of crunchy rusty flakes in the fuel filter. I a couple tanks of gas through a renewable filter and then pulled and flushed the tank thoroughly before getting down to just the fine stuff. Several more tanks of fuel and I managed to sift most of that silty rust out.
Then the pickup tube finally broke off and I'd run out fuel at 6 gallons.
I found a good replacement tank from a fellow brickboarder (it was clean and *not* rusty on the inside). I passed a gallon or two through the tank drain and found it to be clean. The first couple tanks of fuel netted me some silty rusty gunk (much less than before), but that quickly cleared out.
Should have been the end of the story.
My guess is that the modern fuel we have here is eating all the old deposits out of the tank and putting them into solution. I had hoped that the gravity-well and filter tower setup on the AC pump would have dropped the big stuff into the glass bowl and screened out the small stuff.
Apparently fuel flow velocity is sufficient to keep the small stuff in suspension and it is carried forward to my safety filter between the pump and carbs. That filter is a fine paper filter than seems to catch everything that passes the pump screen. It is also not entirely rusty gunk - at least is is *not* all red-brown so it was not all plugged up like the first disposable I installed (before the pump) back at the start of this whole saga.
Either that or the particles are so fine that the filter clogs up mostly before it's obvious that it really is clogged.
Honestly, I checked the filter several times when the car was stalling - it always had fuel in it and did not appear clogged up, which I why I thought something more serious was going on.
If those carb reservoirs were clear/transparent, I could have found the problem much sooner... :)
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What is a tad annoying, is that I replaced the fuel tank entirely to correct a large-particle rust problem in the original tank. This new-used one was flushed a couple times before being installed. It came out quite clean before installation.
I think what I am experiencing is (as a few people have mentioned before) crud being dissolved off the tank and being put into solution with the fuel. this stuff is very small. It passes through the fine brass screen in the pump but is caught by my $3.00 paper filter before the carbs.
I think, maybe I should move it back in front of the pump to keep anything large from screwing up my pump valves. I used to have that setup, but I omitted it when I thought that my new tank was finally cleared.
Since I rely on this car for my commute, I can't pull the tank for professional cleaning, so I'll have to wait it out.
I'd like to find a better renewable filter. I have a box of those glass-tube-and-element filters, but I found one of those was causing me noticeable fuel leakage.
Do you guys have any recommendations for a quality renewable fuel filter?
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posted by
someone claiming to be sdewolfe
on
Sun Jan 27 07:27 CST 2008 [ RELATED]
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I would recommend running the cheapest filters you can find and change them at the first hint of fuel starvation. Meanwhile, either send the original tank to the closest Gas Tank Renu dealer for repair, or get a new gas tank. The latter option is not available for wagons.
I am probably going to start a massive debate about fuel filters but...
A man who knows fluid flow and SU carburetors at a level that I can only aspire to pointed out to me that Volvo shipped these cars without a fuel filter. He said he ran his Amazon for 21 years and it never had a fuel filter on it.
I followed his lead when I installed the carbs he had refurbished. My car has been running for about a year (25K miles) with no fuel filter. The only problem I've had was a bit of debris holding the needle open and causing gas to pour from the bowl vent; easily recognized for what it was and easily fixed. It happened one day on the front carb and the next day on the rear carb. It had not happened before nor has it since.
When I used filters installed both before and after the pump, I did so because the original tank had the same problem you report; extremely fine rust. I was changing them every two hundred miles before I got the new gas tank. They did not clog after I replaced the tank. In fact, they were running so clean I had no qualms removing them.
sd
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Hello,
I second your ReNu recommendation. I have been using a ReNu dealer for over 5 years with 100% success. I have even done some significant modifications to gas tanks, like converting a 122 sedan tank to use a 240 in pump tank for a B20 installion with the 74-75 CIS or K-Jet fuel injection. I had the ReNu dealer cut open the tanks to cut out the fuel well or bowl that retains fuel around the pump and the lock ring plate for the gas sender/fuel supply and return assembly from a 240 tank. The stock 240 lock ring plate was welded to the back side of the tank so you can't see it without getting under the car. The stock 240 sending unit assembly had its gauge sender removed and was used only to supply fuel and return spot and plumbing and electrical connections for the in tank pump.
Now that is said, I sort of disagree with your no filter recommendation. If you are still using an original AC Delco glass bowl or all metal AC Delco fuel pump or an original Pierberg, they came with a filter screen that can easily be removed and cleaned and those are safe to run with out an inline fuel filter.
If, however, you have the later Pierberg which is sealed, or if you are using one those cheap pieces of crap aftermarket pumps, you should use an inline fuel filter installed AFTER the fuel pump.
And to all of you out there, the piece of fuel hose from the hard line from the tank to the fuel pump is 1/4" fuel hose. The rest of the hose, from the fuel pump to the carburaters is 3/16" fuel.
And that brings up the fact that there is special hose for the expansion tank on cooling systems that is coolant resistant, there is special hose for PCV, that is oil resistant and special hose for brake boosters that is re-enforced to withstand vacuum, and even special hose for power steering return line and for transmission cooling lines and for you PV owners that have the remote mounted brake fluid resevoir, there is even a special hose for the bottom of the resevoir that is brake fluid resistant.
Sorry for the tirade, but you should use the right hose for the right job. I even know that your everyday run of the mill mechanic sometimes does not care. I had the occasion to visit my mother in VA on vacation from my repair shop in CA many years ago, and she asked me of course to look at her car after a recent service at a local repair shop. I noticed that the repair shop had used fuel hose for power steering return hose, so I called the repair shop and asked them if they were out of the correct style of hose, and they said they always used fuel hose instead oil resistant return line. I told my mother to get another mechanic!! I knew these guys were rip offs when I saw they charged my mother $20.00 a belt for 4 standard V-belts that should have been less than $10.00 each. Who knows what they might use for brake booster hose, a piece of garden hose I like have seen some many times under the hood of a new to me customer.
--
Eric
Hi Performance Automotive Service (formerly OVO or Old Volvos Only)
Torrance, CA 90501
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Geeze. I do understand the tirade, and I am certainly not running the correct hoses for all applications.
In my case, I do have an AC pump with the screen, but I put the plastic in-line after the pump just in case there was a problem. So... you'd recommend that I just omit that second filter altogether and rely on the AC's fine mesh screen and its gravity-well setup to drop anything large out?
That would work okay since I'd like to use a hardline from the pump to the carbs.
I'll need to re-measure things because a 3/16" line from the pump would be the same size and standard brake line. I have a lot of that laying around already, but I would swear that it would be too small... Still you are the expert here...
Anyway regarding the hoses, the autoparts place I use (Carquest) knows enough to give me the correct tranny-fluid resistant hose for my 940, but they could not help me with the big vacuum hoses to mate my 140-style brake booster to the intake or with the PCV hoses. I've got 1/2" heater hose for those applications and all three have held up quite well.
I've not had any issues, but I'd rather not push things if I don't have to. So where can we get these specialized hoses, aside from the dealer?
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Hello,
In your case, I would run a filter until you fix your gas tank issues.
Brake line and fuel lines are measured differently and 3/16" brake line is smaller than 3/16" fuel line. Brake line is measured by its outside diameter and most other fluid lines are measured at the inside diameter.
What you need is 15/32" brake booster hose and I stock and use Goodyear #65108.
Unfortunately for the DIYer, it is only available in a 50' roll. So unless you want to buy a roll, you will need to find a local "Mom & Pop" auto parts store that stocks Goodyear hose.
--
Eric
Hi Performance Automotive Service (formerly OVO or Old Volvos Only)
Torrance, CA 90501
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there is special hose for the expansion tank on cooling systems that is coolant resistant
what are the specs for this hose - i.d. and type?
thanks
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Hello,
The ID is supposed to be 8mm or 5/16" and the hose has to be thin enough to get on the hose barb on the radiator which is very tight to the upper radiator tank. I used to be able to get a good fitting product from my old radiator shop, which has long since closed, and I have not found the exact same product since.
So I now use VW expansion tank hose which is 7.5mm ID x 12mm OD.
You can buy 5/16 coolant hose from some auto parts stores, but it is too thick to fit on the radaitor tank hose barb. There is also a very thin hose that fits, but it is designed for overflow tanks without pressure caps where there is no pressure or vacuum.
--
Eric
Hi Performance Automotive Service (formerly OVO or Old Volvos Only)
Torrance, CA 90501
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Rj;
I still like the Glass envelope/cleanable element for the instant inspection ability...which by the way would have helped you also...just figure out why yours leaks and take care of it...it sounds like you definately need the inspection/cleaning ability. In the gas-turbine fuel system area, there is a pressure switch which senses the pressure across the filter (this obviously goes way up with an impending clogged filter...not so good when the engine is keeping you aircraft flying)...so the control system gets a switch closure indication (maybe the pilot a light also)...it might even bypass the clogged filter and run through a second filter (a possibly interesting idea for YOU)...or bypass the filter altogether (under the motto of: Dirty fuel is still way better than NO fuel when your flying!).
It seems to me that the filter is not the root problem here...ANY filter is going to get plugged if there is a lot of debris coming down the pipe...and flow restriction results! Maybe you should set up a filtering loop...that is plumb up an electrical pump and a (non-leaking!) see-through filter and set the thing to pump from the fuelpump inlet through the filter and back to the tank until everything runs CLEAN (including when slushing the fuel around by waging the back of vehicle...clean the see-through filter when clogged...lather...rinse...repeat until no significant amounts of gritnik keep coming... Do you have a rusty tank or has some vandal payed a visit?...inspect what came out of filter!
...or maybe, knowing that you have a debris issue, plumb a second filter in parallel with a manual switchover valve (at least you'll be able to make it into work not stinking like a gas station!)....bottom line is you need to have the ability to change to a clean filter when the installed one clogs, and this is likely to happen until you clear out the tank...
Cheers
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Thanks for the detailed advice Ron. I'm not sure what I will do here. A recirculating filter with a bypass arrangement sounds like a lot of trouble to setup but would certainly keep me going.
The original 1968 fuel tank was *very* rusty and was the root cause of the car being inoperable when I bought it. I filtered a few dozen tanks of fuel through the glass filter setup, and removed and flushed the tank manually before it cleared out, and then a broken pickup tube stopped me cold.
So I got a good replacement tank that ran clean when I flushed some gas through it, but small sediments began to accumulate in the filter after the first couple tanks of gas. That petered out and I figured it was *finally* clean, but apparently there is still very small sediment in there that passes the pump but not a paper filter.
I'm going to hope that the time it took for this filter to clog up that maybe I'm near the end of the sediment. I always keep a spare filter in the car along with a simple set of tools, a spare fuel pump, and and assortment of fuel line. This will be the first thing I check next time I get this sort of behavior.
I'm mainly just feeling really foolish for not automatically changing that filter. Then again it was really damn cold here when this happened and I found the problem with 20 minutes when it finally got back over 30 degrees F.
I'll give the glass filter another go and see if I can figure out why I'm losing fuel from it.
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I'm in the UK but there are a few washable filters out there, the glass ones, are often pretty but pretty inefficient and cheaply made. K&N do one apparently. You can probably buy disposable ones in bulk quite cheaply, buy ones with a large pot to increase the filter area. While using those, drag the old tank out from behind the garage and ship it off to your local "Re-Nu" shop if it's not rusted out. Having a clean tank is the only cure in the long run.
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GOD, Will this 122 ever run again.i think so. No 122s should run like this.All the info from members has been wonderful,but you still continue to suffer.I will add one item for thought. years ago in California (no ice) my 1967 122 wagon would have very similar symptoms,Run good one minute and than start dieing the next. After many unneeded part replacements and sleepless nights I found the problem. During the dieing process I stopped the car and took off the tops to the float chambers NO GAS. What I found was completly by accident.The fuel line has a brass junction piece about midway from the tank up to the fuel pump. In the brass junction I found a seed of some sort. It would swell up and block the flow. I found it by blowing back through the line .Never had the problem again.
Good luck,Keep trying.
John.
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My sense of it is that it's a fuel supply issue and that it is caused by a blockage of some sort. That was my line of reasoning regarding water in the fuel and temps under 32 F.
I replaced the fuel tank back in September and ran a number of tanks of fuel through with filters in-line before flushing the last of the crud out. I know the pickup line in this tank is good, but the pickup in the original tank was broken and I'd run out of fuel every 6 gallons. This one is in much better condition.
I did not know that there was a junction in the fuel line.
Truthfully, I keep meaning to inspect the whole line, and maybe replace it with a new line from the tank all the way to the fuel pump and then a hardline from the pump to the carbs. I still suspect my poor economy is due in some part to fuel leakage when running on the highway.
Anyway, it's cold as heck outside and the last thing I want to do this evening is get cold wet gasoline all over me while laying under the car. Where is this junction on the underside? I did not notice one on my 122S wagon when I was installing a dual-circuit brake system...
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Sorry about telling about a junction in between the line.Your right the junction was on a 544 not a 122. I had a 65 544 also. Anyway it fixed the problem on the 544.Have you check the fuel pump pressure when running,also the lobe on the camshaft that drives the mechanical pump?
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There is no fuel junction on a car with the stock fuel system.
Beware of fuel hoses that have swelled up internally; ethanol will attack some types of rubber. The hose that failed on me was almost new, with a braided cloth outer covering. I have heard of others experiencing the same type of failure.
I've been using Gates brand fuel hose since then, and have had no more problems.
Bill
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my newer 1/4" rubber hoses still feel okay. I was planning to go all-metal for a one pipe system.
Anyone know right off what the diameter of the fuel line is? 3/8 or 5/16" OD??
Too cold out to go play with mine right now...
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5/16" from the tank to the pump, 1/4" from the pump to the carbs, and between the carbs.
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posted by
someone claiming to be Champ 6
on
Sat Jan 19 10:13 CST 2008 [ RELATED]
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Say Phil, could RJ's one piece manifold be part of his economy problems?
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Thanks Phil. Any suggestions on pipe type? I've got some decent stuff for my brake lines but it is 3/16" but very easy to work with. I've been warned that copper is poor as it gets brittle over time and will break.
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I've never had occasion to replace the metal pipe, so I don't know. That would be easy to "ramrod" out to clear any possible blockage, so I don't see why you would have to change it short of bad rust problems.
Modern fuel line will hold up to ethanol blends just fine. The older types crumble and leak, but I've never been aware of them swelling up and constricting fuel flow (unlike brake flex lines).
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I'm not sure my present problem is from actual junk in my line, but I've been thinking a solid line might help with mileage. My sub-10 mpg was mainly due to fuel leakage from multiple breaks and filters in my fuel line.
I was thinking of replacing the whole thing to provide a solid unbroken connection from the tank inlet to the pump without using a 4" rubber hose a couple clamps and a brass nipple to complete the connection to the pump.
It was suggested previously that possible pinholes in the fuel line might be causing me to loose fuel from the line at highway speeds - causing me horrible fuel economy. I was thinking a solid replacement fuel line might eliminate that variable along with a a couple unneeded junctions.
I may not go that route, especially with the near zero F temps we're having around here. Unless there's a noticeable downside, I'd like to at least put a solid line between the fuel pump and the carbs.
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I think you should have at least a short piece of rubber hose between the end of the fuel line and the inlet of the fuel pump, to act as a shock absorber of sorts, otherwise the motion of the engine is going to put a strain on your metal fuel line.
Bill
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Dang.. you're right. I forgot about all that movement. It can be very substantial in some cases...
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posted by
someone claiming to be Me
on
Thu Jan 17 14:05 CST 2008 [ RELATED]
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Well, I'm sorry if I suggest something that has been taken care of allready (I have NOT read ALL the threads in your saga) - but since you keep having issues with the engine - and I don't see you mention anything here - I'll try throw in a new line of thinking: Your problems (right from all of your first problems) act A LOT like burned valves. That simple.
And please, engine problems due to burned valves dosen't just show up in a simple compression test - If I where you I would pull the head and test the valves seat-sealness - no way arround it. And if I'm mistaking - what the hell - you hate me anyway! :-)
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Nah, I don't hate you. I hate exactly four people and for very good reason.
I just think you have a warped impression of what sort of people drive amazons over here - at least from the huge prices you demand for the stuff you offer. Sorry if I come off defensive for no reason. I'm not rolling in cash, and I doubt many other people in here are either. I've kept my car going on a shoestring budget and with help from the BrickBoard. People who buy $750.00 mirrors don't generally come in here for help...
I had not considered burned valves before. Why specifically do you think that? Poor mileage or the jumpy power-curve when cold?
What I know about this engine is that it's original ran without oil sometime back in the early-middle 1980s. The motor was going to be rebuilt and the head was machined for rebuilding, but before the original owner could shell out the cash, another 1968 B18B became available (what are the chances in rural central Missouri? Anyway, the block numbers check out as real 1968 B18B). So the replacement engine was installed instead and I got a spare B18 head when I bought the car. The car then sat for 20+ years until an intermediate guy woke the car up and sold it to me.
I've been thinking more about valve recession as opposed to burned valves, but I know very little about the symptoms of the later.
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It does occur to me that you're the guy who want someone local to me to buy my eventual 68 sedan to cut up for parts. I'm quite lucky that I was able to save it from such a fate. I'm only the second owner of this well-preserved car. It deserved a fate better than as a parts-trove. Save that fate for the rusty 1800s
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posted by
someone claiming to be Me
on
Sat Jan 19 10:29 CST 2008 [ RELATED]
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I have absolutely no idea from where you paranoia origins from! I hope you take far, far less offense than I do!
Man, you must have problems asside from your engine problems. I tried engage communication very gently by replying to your thread here, but you stay hostile and agressive - you are an ignorant and I'm glad that those from brickboard I have actually meet in real life are far better americans than you are.
Get your agressive cheapo attitude together and start treat others with respect - or at least shut up when you have nothing positive to say!
Man!...
Don't accuse me of anything - and stop smuthering my name, thanks!
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Since you are too paranoid to actually register an ID on this site because you claim you got spammed by registering here, I cannot take this up with you personally.
When I said you wanted to strip and sell my "eventual" car, I was referring to your posting back in July.
These are *your* posts from July, 2007 referring to the same 1968 122S that I now own. This is where I get my "paranoia origins from"
http://www.brickboard.com/RWD/index.htm?id=1191133
---------------------------------------------------
"strip it and resell - Many Scandinavians would bid high on the bumper bar (if straight and nice), say $170 - the tach will (if nice and functional) make $120 - the under-dash knee-pad, will (if nice) make arround $150 (a european bidder will want it) - the Bendix radio will make $150 (if nice and functinoal) - other than that, the car looks pretty well-preserved and would probably offer a hole lot more nice spares.
Hey - anyone wanna buy it for me?"
---------------------------------------------------
and...
http://www.brickboard.com/RWD/index.htm?id=1191191
----------------------------------------------------
...anyone in here in need of a 'free' shell and interior - are free to contact me.
---------------------------------------------------
And that *is* my car you were talking about, the one I was asking for advice about in this thread. True, it was not yet mine when you made that post, but I was trying to make a deal to buy it when you made that post. There are very few of these cars where I live and you are posting on an international website asking someone to buy and strip a car sitting in my back yard so you can make a few bucks. You wonder why I dislike you?
Hey, we both live in free-market countries, so that's how it goes. But I did buy that car and if things had worked out differently, you would have destroyed it for a few hundred bucks profit. That would have been a huge waste of something rare and worth preserving.
Here's the gist of it. You seem to care about making cash by destroying perfectly good classic volvos. That bugs me. I am a former archaeologist and now a species conservationist. I've met plenty of people who act and talk like you. Everything is just a resource for you to consume and profit from. Use up, destroy, waste, leave nothing for anyone else.
The Brickboard is not an eCommerce connection for people who are trying make a buck, it's for people who love volvos to help keep volvos going, you seem to think we're fodder for your overpriced junk and a source for parts to sell on eBay. We do buy and sell and trade here, but that's not the main purpose of this site. This site is about keeping these great cars going for another 50 years it is about appreciation of quality design and engineering. It is about talking care of something that someone else cared enough about to make in the first place. Things that last are rare in this cheap, disposal consumer world we now live in, but to you these cars are just something else to use up and make money off of.
If you think I've misinterpreted you and want to take an issue my interpretation of your behavior on and off this board feel free to set me straight. I'd rather think you really are decent person that I've grossly misunderstood, than the insulting, second-guessing, profiteering, ignorant, paranoid, judgmental jerk that you act like.
Feel free to contact me via my e-mail: repairmanjack@sbcglobal.net. I already get plenty of spam at this address and I'm not worried about a little more.
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What the heck man? You are reading far too much inflection into my previous comment.
Sounds like I hit a nerve.
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Repairman,
Have you inspected the floats and needles?
--
Mr. Shannon DeWolfe -- (I've taken to using Mr. because my name tends to mislead folks on the WWW. I am a 51 year old fat man ;-) -- KD5QBL
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I checked the carbs carefully most recently in august/september when I was trying to trace my fuel loss and I tried a different set of carbs. The valves are good as well as the needles, but I've not messed with them lately. They have both been disassembled and thoroughly cleaned.
I think the extremely intermittent and temperature/vehicle incline-related nature of this problem suggests a supply problem of some sort - although I have no way to assess it - other than swapping my fuel pump and maybe trying yet another fuel tank...
Right now it is too dang cold to mess with the fuel...
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Jeeze, R-Jack! Have you tried a sage cleansing? Put that puppy in a sweat lodge and clear those demons!
After that, check your carbs...what needles do they have? Are you sure the float valves needles aren't sticking? Are the jets centered on the needles? Do the carb pistons rise and drop without sticking? Do the jets move smoothly up and down with the choke cables, or are the jets staying down (rich mixture)? How are the throttle shafts? Do you see a pattern here?
Seriously, I think you have some carb problems, after all you've gone through, I'm not sure what else is left. Try a differnt set if you have them, or go through them clean 'em up and get them right.
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Another thought: have you checked the camshaft? Pop the valve cover off, and see that all valve rise and lower by about 3/8". My old B18 was barely lifting the #3 intake and #4 exhaust by 1/8", and it ran like crap and got poor milage. Soft cams are not unusual!
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ditto that on the cam...
I found myself with similar symptoms to what RJ describes about a year ago. Namely, substantial loss of power (most noticeable under load).
It was the result, I soon discovered, of a rounded cam lobe on the cyl#4 exhaust valve.
after reading on this site about how common cam failures are, and reading on other sites about how common similar failures on ISKY cams in other cars are (specifically, cams made from CWC blanks/castings, which mine is, and specifically valve trains running higher spring loads), I'm being extra cautious during the ongoing break in of my "new" B20.
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CWC has made the cam billets for decades, and not just for Volvos. The metallurgy is very consistent, and not the problem. I see two causes of cam lobe failure:
1) Incorrect break-in. On first start, you need the engine to fire right up and run it at 2000 RPM for at least 20 minutes. Do NOT let it idle for that period, and minimize idling for the first 100 miles. Do NOT crank the engine to get oil pressure up before the first start. The slower the engine is spinning, the greater load on the cam-lifter interface. Quality cam lube on the lobes during assembly is highly recommended.
2) Incorrect oil type. Current motor oil formulations (in the U.S. at least) no longer contain sufficient ZDDP additives needed to lubricate flat-tappet cams like ours. Levels were also reduced in diesel oils last July, so those are no longer a viable substitute. Instead, use racing oil that does not have an API classification, or 4-stroke motorcycle oil for the first several thousand miles. After that, Castrol Syntech Blend (part dino oil, part synthetic) seems to be good.
I've got a low-mile Enem K18 cam on my bench right now (not from an engine I built) with a flat exhaust lobe because it wasn't broken in correctly -- that's some $500 at current exchange and shipping rates from Sweden.
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you may very well be right re. CWC billets being consistently high quality. The internet gives them a bad rep, but then again, the internet isn't exactly the most reliable source.
everything you've described in terms of proper break in is essentially what I gathered from a variety of sources...
My builder also recommended non-API racing oil but I was too excited to wait, so I ran Shell RotellaT oil (no longer has the additives it did prior to summer '07) from the local parts store. Also added a bottle of Crane Cams Breakin Lube. Pumped the mixture into the oil galleys through the oil pressure sender opening.
Removed inner valve springs. Verified that the cam train was coated in moly goo before final assembly. Set everything up to fire as soon as possible: gas in carbs, TDC, static timing.
It didn't go quite as well as I'd hoped. Took 20-30 seconds of cranking to get it fired up. Ran a bit. Died due to no gas. Took another 20-30 seconds to fire it up the second time. Then it was the ol' sit in the driveway and rev your engine for a half hour routine, see how many neighbors I could piss off.
The engine smells much less than I'd've thought, and no smoke at all from the tailpipe.
I've driven all of 16 miles since starting it up and I've kept it under 3k rpm this whole time (installed a tach), but constantly revving the engine back and forth. Lots and lots of revving.
It's great to have it back on the road. It's been almost a year since I pulled the old B18. Pics to come.
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I've only checked the cam in that I made sure that all valves were opening and closing when I was cranking. I did not measure it as I was just confirming that my valves were all working.
I dunno about the carbs. This is my best set. 1968 HS6 with helical springs.
These are the originals to a car that sat unused for over twenty years, so aside form the frozen parts, I have a set with half the wear of most SUs.
That being said, t throttle shafts are slightly worn and I've got some plastic washers on there to keep out the potential vacuum leak. Otherwise, they perform quite well under most circumstances, I'd think I'd see some problems when it was cool, but not freezing as well. but I would like to have some teflon bushings installed with new throttle shafts. Sadly I can't afford to ship them to Rhys right now.
My other HS6s are terrible and very worn and aside from them, I have a pair of rebuilt (but still troublesome) HIF6s and a pair of unknown-function/condition Stromberg CD-175s.
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posted by
someone claiming to be Champ 6
on
Sat Jan 19 10:15 CST 2008 [ RELATED]
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Check teh chokes..make sure that when you push teh chole in that teh jets actually move up into the body of the carb like they should.
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I've confirmed that the jets move smoothy and do not stick open.
I am tad concerned that my choke cable is too short, but it looks like it stops just short of being stuck on.
Are you thinking poor mileage or the poor engine behavior?
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RJ,
At this point I wouldn't dare to entertain any notions as to what your car's problem might be, but if you want to have the SUs worked on for a very reasonable price, I'd suggest you contact Tom Bryant at tbryant@suscom-maine.net.
Bob S.
--
'62 PV544 (B20, M41), '71 142E, '93 240 Classic Wagon.
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Thanks to Sil ... I had Ole Reliable's Carbs done by Tom Bryant ... and they work great .... very reasonable too !!
Brett
--
Brett Sutherland & the 1.5 million mile 122 CANADIAN --- WINDSOR, Nova Scotia the birthplace of HOCKEY www.ecvintagevolvo.com
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Ignoring the history and the fuel mileage issue, what you've just described is a fuel delivery problem, IMHO. Ignition problems, (and basic mechanical problems), do not temporarily cure themselves by letting the engine idle for a minute or two, but fuel delivery problems sometimes do. This could include icing in the fuel lines between the tank and the carbs, obviously dependent upon ambient temps.
Gary L
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Fuel delivery was also my first thought. I had very similar symptoms due to old varnish melting off the sides of the gas tank and plugging up the pump -- would start and idle fine, and drive all day under light throttle, but as it for enough gas to go up a steep hill or anything else that required more throttle for more than 15 seconds, and it would starve.
Ignition problems would show up as soon as you stepped on the gas hard. Fuel problems only show up when you step on the gas hard long enough for the pump not to keep up with the reserve in the float bowls.
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That sounds close to my problem... although I can't quite figure how the temperature relates. Something about the cold makes the pump work too slow or the supply becomes limited when I'm climbing a hill.
If the carbs are staving, it does not jive too well with the poor overall economy. Plus I don't get any of the popping and sputtering typical when your mixture is too thin
That would also work somewhat with the problem as I experienced it in December...
I have a couple higher PSI fuel pumps that I could try, but I had attributed those to my poor fuel economy...
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How is your engine getting warm air to the manifold and carbs? when you idle I think your carbs are getting heat from the manifold but when you run down the road they get cold,your car must have warm air when its cold out.
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This was the last paragraph of my post to your last thread.
"I stick by my advice to take the jets up a few flats and also to increase the tick over revs. This should allow you to get the choke in much quicker and have the engine run better on your way to the highway. Looks like it's going to get increasingly colder there over the next few days, so for your 5.30 starts I'd be tempted to put some cooking foil over your grilles for the run into work."
I don't say that the foil will solve your problems but it'll stop the cold air getting in when on the move. The old Amazons had a nice roller rad blind which you could haul up and down from inside the car. Very useful in these conditions.
There should be a rubber flap mounted on the pipe from the filler cap to the front filter if you have that set up. I think that helps to keep the cold air from the fan from frosting up the front float chamber. Some creative work with foil can work here also.
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Repairman,
I had not even considered carb icing. You would do well to try to keep heat around the carbs, as Derek suggests. Especially if you do not have these symptoms at all on warmer days.
--
Mr. Shannon DeWolfe -- (I've taken to using Mr. because my name tends to mislead folks on the WWW. I am a 51 year old fat man ;-) -- KD5QBL
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Hum.. could be the issue. I did richen my mixture and that had only a temporary effect, but I'm not sure that the heat was not just a coincidence.
I took my somewhat more modern 1972 140 out on a night *much* colder than today and had no issues at all.
Also, these problems got worse and stayed worse *after* the car had reached operating temperature and stayed poor even after I pulled off and let it warm up. Based on this experience, I can't say I see a clear correlation between perceived carb cooling the poor engine performance. I will say that at least to a point, the performance problems were somewhat like the engine behavior when you start it cold.
I do, by the way, have a one-piece cast-steel combination manifold as well as the lower front carb shield in place.
Since I cleaned out the molasses (Mobil1 back in december, I've only had Marvel Mystery Oil in the dashpots... Still quite slick in the 20s...
High-powered 1800E fan and shroud, maybe a thermostatic-switch controlled electric fan would be worth the investment...
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Your latest problems sound like fuel starvation issues to me as well; I experienced similar symptoms before I replaced my gas tank with the rusted out pickup tube. Your fuel pump may be on the way out. Next time the car does what you have described, check the fuel level in the float bowls.
As for improving the cold weather performance, radiator/grille blocking has worked extremely well for me.
I would recommend ditching your mechanical fan completely and just going with an electric fan with thermostat.
Bill
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Another possible source of fuel starvation is collapsed/swelled rubber fuel hoses too; I had this happen on my wagon with hose that was less than a year old. It collapsed internally where the hose passed through the hose clip on the intake manifold, and starved the rear carb of fuel.
Bill
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Probably a bad fuse.
In my '80 and '79, I think the fuse for the heater fan is Fuse #4. That might be different in your '85. It is a 16a (red) fuse.
Pull the fuse and have a look at it. I'll bet you'll find the fuse is partly melted, especially if you haven't replaced it since you replaced your old motor (the old motor likely pulled a lot of resistance through that fuse since the motor was wearing out, enough to melt it.)
--
Formerly 'HearToTemptYou'
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