Volvo RWD 120-130 Forum

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Losing fuel, much narrowed down, probably in carbs 120-130

Sorry to keep spawning a new thread every time this comes up, but I'd like some advice on the carbs. That seems to be where the problem lies.

You all know my fuel economy is terrible. 13-16 mpg, approximately half of what it should be getting. I've investigated the fuel tank, fuel filler neck/cap (NO leaks there even under hard acceleration), fuel hardline, fuel pump, and fuel line to the carbs.

I only lose fuel while running, and it's especially bad on the highway.

There's no smoke out the tailpipe, and the lift-pin test on the carbs indicates that the mix is just fine. Added to all that, I've just replaced the head and *finally* got my valve lash correct. My points and condenser are new along with my cap and rotor. I running a blue bosch coil with magnecore wires and NGK BP6HS plugs. I also have a locking gas cap, so no neighbors with siphons either...

The car idles like a well-oiled sewing machine, starts quickly, no longer diesels on shutdown, and has a nice smooth curve of acceleration.

Yet...
I've driven the car 35 miles and I've burned a 1/4 tank of fuel. This is very consistent with my "usual" poor economy.

I'm not losing fuel in park, I do not seem to be burning it. It *must* be leaking out somewhere, and I suspect that it happens around the lower portion of the carbs. The top fuel reservoir seals and rubber connector hose were replaced and there is NO evidence I'm losing fuel there. I check often.

So... where else on the carb could I be losing fuel if it is not getting burned and it is not getting out at the top of the reservoirs? The jets seems like the only possible culprit. BUT, there are no wet spots under the car at idle, whatever is it must open up (big time) under acceleration, but seal back up when parked.

Do these symptoms strike a cord for anyone?


Thanks as always.








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    Maybe making progress... maybe. 120-130

    I was up until 12:15 last night building a "new" set of two-bolt SUs out of parts and jets that I have on hand. The jets and pistons springs are matched pairs as were the carb bodies. The KN needles were brand-new. It took a while to get the jets centered, but it went relatively fast otherwise.

    I went with a two-bolt pair because the forward carb has a small vacuum port for use with a vacuum-controlled Dizzy (like my BL33). I have it capped right now and I did test it with a vacuum gauge later.

    So, this morning I removed the 68's 3-bolt carbs and installed the 2-bolt carbs. I was immediately faced with significant fuel pouring from the reservoir/jet connections and this took some time to get that correctly sealed up.

    Now I know what that sort of problem looks like... scary. The 68 was not previously leaking fuel there. That's for sure.

    Anyway, I got the repaired two-bolt carbs on and ran the motor for some time to warm it up. I tried to get them both down to baseline, but found that even using a "Unisyn" it was a chore. The engine was rocking quite a bit when I finally got the mixture and vacuum in sync.


    I followed Cam's directions carefully - adjusting the flats as suggested. I think I got these new carbs pretty straight. The mixture is quite a bit "leaner" than when I had the 3-bolt SUs on there, but I'm not so sure about the engine rocking. I'm also not sure if I got the idle down to the grumpy idle that was described. The idle did definitely slow as I leaned it out, but it did seem to plateau after a bit. I was pretty close to the top.

    I've had the issue (recurring with most of my carbs) that the one will adjust just fine, but the other usually runs high, even when the throttle screw is all the way out (touching nothing). I've never been able to figure that out.

    I took to car for a drive and found that I had plenty of power, but it hesitates somewhat suggesting that it is still not quite right. I strongly suspect that the system is out of sync even after using the unisyn and checking individual mix with the lift pin. It also has this behavior when I rev the engine while tunning. I'm not sure what to do for that.

    I also hear some faint pops in the exhaust noise, even when idling. Maybe still too lean... seems different than my other experiences...

    I did re-check my timing after adjustments and re-adjusted it after I got the carbs tuned for a test-drive.

    This has also been a chore since the cart's Smith Tach ceased to read correctly some time back. I have to sorta go by idle sound and memory of what 900 rpms sounded like. My tach only reads up to about 1500 even at full throttle. It also drops down to almost 0 when the car idles. This makes is hard to really do this right. I have a small 240-gauge on it's way and that should help.

    So if any of you can tell me what's probably going on with the engine shaking and the hesitation at initial acceleration, please let me know.

    Thanks.

    Oh yeah, the 68's 3-bolt carbs had KN needles, but at least one was showing some wear/damage. This was probably a contributor to my problems, but does not seem like enough to explain it all.











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      Maybe making progress... maybe. 120-130

      sorry this is not necessarily a proper response..

      Have you ever listened to you favorite record, found that it just doesn't sound right? adjust... or rather 'tweak' the bass or treble or balance?

      rich, lean, or synchronize... even with the wrong needles, you should be able to tune it in close...

      it'll come around..


      --
      -Matt I ♥ my ♂








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      Uneven responses 120-130

      I went back at the carbs after getting cleaned up and found that the jet on the forward carb was not in correctly. I won't go into the details of why, but it's fixed now and getting the two carbs sync'd was much easier.

      What is still a problem is getting the mixture/throttle adjusted correctly. The big problem I've been having is that the engine will surge and not calm down when I adjust the throttle up. Alternately, it will quickly die if I adjust it down to much. There does not seem to be a sweet spot. Too much or too little.

      I also had some troubles during test-driving. Despite being set on a low idle, the engine would surge up while shifting. So it's either the throttle hesitates on acceleration or it surges on shifting.

      This is with a balanced idle around 800-1000 rpms, 12 flats out and 2-4 back in.
      The main problem is that a small adjustment has a big change sometime, but none at all other times. Hard to get a proper "feel" for it...








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    Losing fuel, much narrowed down, probably in carbs 120-130

    you are likely burning that gas up due to improper carburettor settings. Timing could do it too, but I doubt it could have that much affect if the car is otherwise running OK. If it were leaking, you'd have smelled it, and/or burned your car to a crisp by now.

    Only leakage that I can fathom that you might not smell...

    Please remind again what carbs and airfilter setup you are using.

    If you're using a later type black box (140 type) air cleaner assembley with the float vents tubed into that black box... then a float overflow situation would end up in the box. I've seen that on HIF6 carb setup on my '71 a time or two. Even there though... the likelyhood of running a gallon of gas through that box every 10 miles is slim to none...

    You need to adjust them carbs. simple as that. A tiny adjustment in the rich/lean can make a huge difference.

    A gallon every 10 miles..from a leak...., you'd smell it. Oh yes. You would most definitely smell it.

    And get a fire extinguisher and keep it handy.. to be safe.

    Take it to a shop and have them do an emmission test... I think you'll find your car pegging the meters.



    --
    -Matt I ♥ my ♂








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      Losing fuel, much narrowed down, probably in carbs 120-130

      Agreed re carby tuning.
      Years ago I had a GT Hillman Hunter (Twin SU's) and my GF at the time used to forget to push the choke all the way back in causing the car to burn HUGE amounts of fuel for an 1800cc engine.

      I also had an issue where I had replace the standard fuel pump with a Facet style electric pump that ran at 7 PSI and this too caused high consumption until I added an regulator.

      Both of these faults didnt produce an awful lot of black smoke either as I was doing highway miles.

      Hope this helps!

      Tony








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        Losing fuel, much narrowed down, probably in carbs 120-130

        Buy how did your spark plugs look? PJ has stated his plugs are a normal tan, not black like you'd expect with a very rich mixture. And that much gas, how does it even run, much less well?

        Then again, I'm totally out of ideas.....








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          Fuel Mixture/Spark Plugs 120-130

          Ah, the sparks. I forgot to tell you about those. Kinda important bit of evidence.

          Last week, after I swapped the gearbox and suddenly found that the engine was running poorly, I pulled my sparks and checked them.

          The back two (#3 and #4) were black and sooty. In contrast, the front two (#1 and #2) were not blackened and looks a little "burnt" on the electrode-bridge bit. Too rich on the rear and too lean on the front was my assumption.

          These sparks cleaned up fine, so I reinstalled and adjusted the forward carb a flat richer and the rearward carb two flats richer.

          When the engine continued to run poorly, I decided to test the idea that the valves were the problem, so I switched the head for my older 1967 head. At that point I pulled the sparks and checked them. Sparks #1, #2, and #3 looked a little bit burnt, but #4 looks slightly sooty.

          Still too lean, I figured and adjusted the forward carb out another flat.
          I'm not sure what to make on the #3/#4 split.

          Bear in mind that the lift-pin test on the carbs show them to be at proper mixture at idle and that my carbs have minimal wear on the throttleshafts. I've also checked my pistons and needles several times. nothing out of the ordinary there.

          So, I put the 1967 head on the car and experienced awful noise and running. That went away complete when I got the valve lash adjusted correctly. The car runs and now sounds *very* nice. Best ever since I bought the car.

          But I've taken two trip and a half to/from work (approx 80 miles) and I'm already down to 1/2 a tank. My experiences tracking my economy has shown my gauge to be very consistent regarding fuel consumption and this point is slightly more than half of my fuel gone.








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            Fuel Mixture/Spark Plugs 120-130

            I think Derek is right: your carbs are woefully out of adjustment.

            If the 'pin test' shows that both are correct but the plugs show the difference you describe between 1/2 and 3/4, then the pin test isn't a good measure in this instance.

            You know this already - if you have false air at the throttle shafts, you simply will not get the carbs tuned.

            First: set your points and then your timing. Be precise.

            Second: make sure you've got oil in the carbs.

            Baseline the carbs. Loosen the clamps on the intermediate shaft; bring the jets up to flush; lower them according by the book - some say 12 flats, some say 15. Start the engine, set the idle speed on both carbs exactly the same.

            Recheck your timing. Adjust if needed.

            After the engine is fully warm, THEN adjust the mixture. Randomly adjusting one and the other has only ensured that they're not balanced. Lean the carbs out until the idle degrades. One flat on each carb at a time; then wait a moment until the idle changes. Idle speed should increase as you go leaner. If it doesn't change, it's still too rich. Lean it out more. Keep leaning it until the idle degrades - it'll transition from a "nice smooth idle" to a "rough crappy lumpy engine doesn't like it" idle. You'll know.

            If it doesn't degrade and you manage to bring the jets all the way back to flush, you've got the wrong needles, or some other problem.

            When you're at the point that the idle has degraded, richen the carbs. Some say 2 flats richer, some say 1. It's critical that you do exactly the same thing to each.

            Reset the idle speed to spec. Check the timing again.

            After all this is done, you should have a nice smooth idling engine. Tighten the clamps on the intermediate shaft. The linkage must NOT rest against the throttle levers.

            Test drive. If you get lean pops through the carb (really rare with SUs); or if you can feel lean surges as you drive, you've got the wrong needles. No good reason to futz around any more: replace the needles and start the process over. Second time around, though, you probably won't have to loosen the intermediate shaft clamps. Everything else still applies.

            An old Volvo engine will run seemingly well with its carbs adjusted too rich. I'd bet that's where you are right now. No offense, but given the issues that have come up so far and their eventual resolutions having to do with things like incorrect firing order and incorrect valve adjustments, I really think the carbs are out of balance and out of adjustment. SUs are much harder to learn to adjust and tune well they seem like they should be; and I think that trying to learn to do it without a mentor is... asking for a lot of frustration. The kind of thing you could learn from someone in a matter of an hour or two but can easily take several sessions of an hour or two by yourself. You'll get there.

            Best,

            Cameron
            Rose City








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              Fuel Mixture/Spark Plugs 120-130

              Nicely said Cameron... your post should be in an easily findable archive somewhere...
              --
              -Matt I ♥ my ♂








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                We need an FAQ, "new' carbs. 120-130

                I don't have the time, and people have poo-poo'd the suggestion, but I still think a 120/130/220 FAQ could be a good thing.

                Regarding my growing skill-set. If found that I'll get really flustered when something utterly fails and occasionally adjust something else instead and that's when things hit the fan (firing order and the compression stroke for example). That had to be just about the worst trip-down-the-wrong-road I''ve ever had. I'll *never* make that mistake again.

                Anyway. Last night I carefully rebuilt a pair of 2-bolt HS6 carbs and installed KN needles, which are supposed to be stock for the B18B.

                My "other" pair of 3-bolt carbs (from the 1967 220) were equipped with SM needles which belong to a B18D. Probably not right on my sedan or wagon.

                I'll see what the 68's carb have in them after I remove them. It may explain a lot.

                You hit the nail on the head regarding the performance. I've set and confirmed my timing and valve lash. I adjust the carbs top, and then back 6-9 flats to get to normal idle. Three more to get the lift-pin test to work, and 3 more after that so the car doesn't pop when I try to accelerate. I had never heard that the needle were the culprit if you ere poping under load, even when the idle was set properly. That's critical info and it explains quite a bit about why my HIF6 carbs behaved as they did...

                Maybe the wrong needles are in the 68. I know it had its engine swapped with another B18B and maybe the wrong carbs were used - or something.

                I'm going to try my new carbs shortly and see what happens.

                Thanks








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                  We need an FAQ, "new' carbs. 120-130

                  I think a FAQ would be good.. it's a matter of who has time to compile that. And getting Jarred to make the time to post it...

                  Not so much 120/etc specific, but perhaps a general 'pushrod' cars FAQ... they are all so similar...

                  --
                  -Matt I ♥ my ♂








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            Fuel Mixture/Spark Plugs 120-130

            Reading this post about your sooty plugs and carb adjustments makes me think these carbs are well out of adjustment. It may be a typo when you say you richened the back carb, the one with the sooty plugs but it should be the other way round. The carbs may pass the pin test at tickover but that's not where you're using the extra petrol. You posted some good You tube links recently and it might be an idea to start from scratch and look at those a few times. The critical jet centreing and the piston drop test with the domes inverted at arms length would be useful. When looking into both carbs with the filters off the pistons should lift equally as you open the throttle whether you open them fast or slow. They should both settle to the same position at any fixed throttle position and drop equally at the same speed. It's possible that the rear one is sticking up for a while. It may not come down straight away after you have accelerated through the gears and back to cruising speed.
            John Twist has 56 videos on You Tube, and many of them are relevant here I think. A Uni-Syn vacuum tool or the more common rotary drum type would be useful. He is shown using a Uni-Syn on an MGB.
            http://uk.youtube.com/user/Universitymotorsltd








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    Losing fuel, much narrowed down, probably in carbs 120-130

    Jack,
    Put a timing light on your engine and see if it advances when you speed it up.
    Should start from around 20 and go to around 35°.

    Make sure your float level is not too high. If it is, it will suck a LOT more
    gas at speed than at idle.

    And do NOT try to estimate mileage by using the gas gauge. Fill it up, run it
    until it is low, then see how much it took to fill it again and check the miles.

    These comments are in addition to what the other guys posted.

    Unless your trips average half a mile or less, you should be getting over 20 mpg. I have gotten over 30 on long trips in a wagon with no stops, and it was
    a big-bore engine.
    --
    George Downs, Bartlesville, Heart of the USA!








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      Check float level 120-130

      I'd second this as a likely reason. Jack, have you ever checked and reset the float levels? Different years and float styles have different space dimension btw float and float valve.








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        Checked float level... 120-130

        Yup. I've had these carbs apart at least 3 times and checked the float settings and behavior as well as replaced needle valves and seals.

        My best hope now is a new pair of 2-bolt HS-6s that I've just finished building. They have a vacuum attachment so I can try out my vacuum advance dizzy tomorrow.
        Must sleep first. Just finished rebuilding the 2-bolt carbs and it's well-after midnight here...








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    my experiences with fuel leaks 120-130

    personally, I've had fuel leaks in the following places:

    1. By far the most common, in my experience, is from the overflow vent at the top of the float chambers on both carburetors. this has happened on both B20's I've owned. It's a very common problem with SU's and is well documented on this board and elsewhere. It is especially common on engines that have sat for a while. In my experience, I've always been able to smell the gas leak as I drive down the road, and I've been able to watch it happening by watching the running engine with the hood up. If you haven't already- run your engine, and while carefully inspecting the carbs, rev the engine at different speeds, manually moving the throttle linkage. The leak might only occur in a specific RPM range because of the dynamics between spring-dependent (variable) fuel pressure, and different levels of fuel demand being placed on the float assemblies. There are many simple ways of troubleshooting this, but sometimes a persistent leak will require new float valves.


    2. I recently discovered that the original short flexible section of fuel line that connects the hard line to the fuel pump was leaking. It was the original, which is rubber with a fabric sheath around it. The sheath masked the fact that it was leaking and I believe I've been living with the condition for some time. It's interesting that it was on the non-pressurized side of the fuel circuit- before the pump. Also, it was a pulsing leak. I suspect that the pump would draw fuel from downstream, and at the moment the pump stopped "pulling" the inertia of fuel moving down the line was enough to force small amounts of fuel through the cracks in the 40 year old hose.


    3. I had a fuel pump develop a leaky diaphragm. Fuel was spraying out the relief hole that's designed into the side of it. Again, this was detected by smelling raw gas whilst driving down the road.








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    Losing fuel, much narrowed down, probably in carbs 120-130

    My '67 220 had a leaking rear jet. There was absolutely no question where the fuel was going - you could smell it from feet away when the car was parked and from within the car when running. However, you couldn't really see a leak since it was dripping right down on the exhaust manifold.

    I can't imagine that you're leaking that much fuel without smelling it.








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    Losing fuel, much narrowed down, probably in carbs 120-130

    There's a vent hole in the float chamber cap--directly under the tube. Fuel can spill out there if the needle valve gets overwhelmed (what kind of fuel pump do you have--SU's don't need much pressure) or stuck open (not likely given the otherwise good running). Leaks at the tube connecting to the jet would just plain leak and you'd know it. Could there be something other than motor related--dragging calipers or overtight rear shoes? Ignition timing (not enough advance at speed--the mechanical advance can get gummed up and not work). Pop the distributor cap and twist the rotor counterclockwise -- it should move a noticeable amount and then spring back when released.








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      Losing fuel, much narrowed down, probably in carbs 120-130

      Here's an 'iffy' idea...not terribly safe, but then again neither is a gas leak, so everyone feel free to ding me if this is excessively un-safe:

      First take your fire extingusher with you. Then wrap a cloth around each of the carbs, particulalry the bowls and the jets, making sure the carb can still function. Go for a *short* drive, remove the cloth and see if it is wet with fuel. Sure, it's a Molitov cocktail, but can it be any worse than gas dripping on a hot manifold?

      Like I said, if this is realy that much more unsafe, everyone jump in.

      Ron








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        Tracking subtle fuel leaks 120-130

        Ron;

        That's is an interesting idea, but I think part of the problem is that the fuel, being pretty volatile, evaporates away before you go to check it...so your idea made me consider what technique might be useful to CATCH AND RECORD the fact that leakage had occured...here's my evolution to your idea (this assumes ink from a Sharpie marker is soluble by fuel, which could be quickly confirmed)...make some Sharpie lines on a white parper towel or napkin (or strip of), and wrap this around any suspected areas (hold in place by tie-wire)...if liquid is (EVER!) present, but only during certain conditions, and not enough to tell or it evaporates away before you can get to check it, it will still leave an unmistakable telltale sign as the fuel seperates the ink, and this will stay until you check it. (Thanks, Mr. Clark, Jr. High School!)

        Good Hunting








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          Tracking subtle fuel leaks 120-130

          Why not put a couple 4-mil freezer bags over the suspected portion of the carbs and run at high idle in neutral simulating high-speed travel?

          {thick plastic would catch and condense the fuel, and if done before the car gets too hot, melting would not be an issue.

          I have some of that insulated reflective foil I bought for my wagon's ceiling. A section of that would also limit the chances of melting...








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      Fuel Pressure, Ignition or Brakes? 120-130

      I've got two fuel pumps I've tried.

      I have a rebuilt lower-pressure AC pump, which I removed and replaced with my newer OEM high-pressure pierberg when I suspected that I was losing fuel into the crankcase.

      The only change between the low-pressure pump and the new pump was that I lost fuel a bit faster with the new(er) pump.

      I've been down the road with ignition before - and notably my fuel economy did pick up when I was running with my allison/crane electronic ignition unit. The control unit died spectacularly back on January 8 and I had to go back to the mechanical unit after only about half a tank of fuel with the e-gnition.

      I've also considered brake binding but that petered out. Both rear drums spin smoothly without e-brake on. They are also the self-adjusting types. I did think my front calipers were binding, and I swapped them completely with the old front calipers from my 1967 220. (The 220 has 1800E calipers now).

      In either case, the car coasts nicely and it does not feel like my engine is fighting the brakes to move the car around. My pads are still quite thick too...

      I'll have to check my mechanical advance setup again. I'm not sure that there's any spring-back...

      I've been looking into a hotspark setup, but am quite unsure if it would work with any but my 71 B20E distributor or my rather old vacuum advance distributor.

      I can't afford a new crane unit right now. I may go pertronix if I can determine that the dizzy is the problem - otherwise it's just more good money after bad.

      Thanks.








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        Fuel Pressure, Ignition or Brakes? 120-130

        If there's no spring back, you have no advance. My recollection is that the vacuum on most Volvos is to retard the timing at idle and light cruise--not advance. Check your distributor to see which way the rod pulls the breaker plate. Even with points and condensor, all other things being ok, you should be getting 20-25 mpg. While aftermarket ignitions may work fine, my own preference (in my '69 144) is for the Bosch electronic ignition from a 1975 240 series.








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          Distributors and E-gnition 120-130

          Ok, the original dizzy is a -009 and it has fine advance and return. Turns about 20 degrees CC and returns. Clicks a bit, but there is definite free movement and springiness.

          Aside from swapping on another stock dizzy, I think going back to an electronic ignition is my best chance to narrow this problem. Sadly my options are limited to the costly setups.

          I have a few other dizzys available, but none will work with one of those dang $40.00 hotsparks. I'll have to drop at least $125.00 to get anything that will work with any of my distributors.

          Cast Iron
          JFR4- 0 231 153 003 (x2)
          JFR4- 0 231 153 009
          VJU 4BL33 (Vacuum Advance)

          There's no doubt about the 4BL33 being a vac advance unit. The vacuum servo moves the plate counter-clockwise, advancing it into the spin of the rotor. I've also got a vacuum-retard dizzy (not listed) that acts in exactly the opposite fashion.

          So, unless I have luck tomorrow hooking up my old Allison/Crane (I'm almost positive it is dead), I need to choose either a Perlux/Pertronix or another Crane unit.

          Does anyone have any strong opinions on one or the other? Both will set me back about $115.00.












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        Fuel Pressure, Ignition or Brakes? 120-130

        If you lost fuel a bit faster after you installed the higher pressure fuel pump, that does imply that you may have a leak somewhere after the fuel pump.

        How is your sense of smell? If you are used to always smelling gasoline, which is hard to avoid on a 40+ year old car with SU's, you may be unintentionally overlooking some clues. Sometimes problems steadily creep up on you, worsening just slowly enough for you to get used to them, until you wind up with a hard failure that takes you by surprise, even though it might have been progressing for months.
        Have your wife take a sniff under the hood, or ride with you for a bit, and see if she notices anything unusual. Try opening a vent window too; that will sometimes make engine smell more apparent if your firewall has a few unplugged holes or your shift boot is a bit leaky. You could even pull the shift boot up a little, temporarily, to get a whiff of the engine compartment while your driving the car.

        It's not uncommon to develop leaks on either end of the hoses that supply the fuel to the jets. There is a little rubber o-ring between the brass fitting on the end of the hose and the opening on the bottom of the float bowl; it gets compressed over time and can start to leak. The leaking fuel gets instantly vaporized by the heat of the exhaust manifold.

        Clean the outside of your carbs too; it can make it easier to spot a leak, especially if fuel varnish starts appearing in unexpected places.

        I assume your car has the proper one-piece heat shield.

        As far as the Pertronix kit goes, it can only help. Both of my cars have it, and I would never, ever go back to points again.

        Bill







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