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Fortunately, its a long weekend! Had a new set of rubber put on the 245 today and asked them to do an alignment since there was some mild but odd wear on the left front tire. Well, they drive it up on the alignment rack, jack up the front and then inspected things. Well, the left front wheel had a ton of slop so he tugged on the tie rod and the outer end joint separated completely! The inner tie rod on the left side also had a bunch of play. Inspection of the right side inner and outer showed minor slop in both joints but were still too bad for an alignment job.
Now here is the kicker, I replaced all four tie rod ends and ball joints 2 years/32K miles ago with brand new TRW parts, I even have the receipts to prove it! I have always trusted TRW suspension and steering parts so I'm not ready to condemn them just yet. Now to the questions...
1: Could these excessive tie rod end failures be hastened by running non-standard tires (205x50x16) and or lowering springs and full poly bushings along with a 25mm sway bar?
2: Can the outrageously pot hole littered street of downtown Raleigh have contributed to the joint failure(s)? Please note that I did hit one pot hole so hard that the U-bolts holding the steering rack to the cross member deformed and stretched!
3: Has TRW just thrown their name to the wind and are now sourcing all their parts from the lowest bidder in China?
Seriously, I'm not trying to bash one of my favorite suspension component manufacturers and I am hoping that questions 1 and 2 are contributors rather than #3. Have any of you seen similar failures with or without suspension mods?
In any case, since I desperately need the car running and don't usually have the time to work on it, I picked up new Moog joints for about $80 a side (inner and outer). If Moog parts let me down in 2 years time, then I'll know it was a combo of #1 and #2!
Once again, please let me know if you have seen similar TRW part failures.
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92 245 250K miles, IPD'd to the hilt, 06 XC70, 00 Eclipse custom Turbo setup...currently taking names and kicking reputations!
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I've noticed big, big differences in the quality of rubber/urethane items (aftermarket cheapie urethane bushings for alternators lasted about six months in one instance) and in radiators/hoses. We need to report experiences with parts quality so we can maintain a corporate memory of brand issues.
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See the 700/900 FAQ at the select shortcut button on the top right of the screen.
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Okay, time for a post re-fit report. The outer TRW tie rod ends were shot, driver side was far worse than passenger side. On both outer ends, the seals/cups were 100% intact with no evidence of leaks.
Both TRW inner tie rods were sloppy but no where near failure. Perhaps that's due to the fact that the rack has been leaking fluid out both ends in a major way (the bellows were full of fresh PS fluid).So yes, on Monday, I'll order a new re manufactured steering rack... replacement will be next weekends job!
Now for the differences I've found between the TRW and Moog parts, despite the fact they have the same corporate parent.
Outer ends:
Country of origin: TRW, China Moog, Germany(box from USA)
General casting quality: TRW, slight bubbles Moog, nice but not perfect
Grease fittings/approach: TRW, sealed Moog, grease nipples included
Fastener to wheel assy: TRW, nut with nylon lock Moog, castle nut and pin
Overall: TRW, low cost, no margin in design Moog, Worth the extra money
Inner tie rods(CAM design):
Country of origin: TRW, China Moog, Germany (box from USA)
Overall appearance: TRW, good Moog, good
Details: TRW, no flat faces, vise grip installation, Moog
has flats for a wrench
Accessories: TRW, tie rod in a bag Moog, detailed instructions
thread locker tube-o-goo and a lock nut
In conclusion, although I believe the damage to the TRW tie rods was caused by "wickedly bad roads" and an aggressive driving style, it is clear out of the box that the old Sears (good, better, best) quality scale from the 70s and 80s is at work here. I'll give TRW parts a (good) rating, and Moog parts a (best) rating. Please note, I reserve the right to revise this statement in 2 years if the Moog parts fail in the same fashion!
jorrell
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92 245 250K miles, IPD'd to the hilt, 06 XC70, 00 Eclipse custom Turbo setup...currently taking names and kicking reputations!
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This thread and your re-cap prompted me to look inside the 2 Moog tie rod end boxes in the garage...
Box says part origin is Germany. Can't tell box origin but it has NASCAR emblem as well as Federal-Mogul logo.
Inside is a TRW end with a pinch-type steel lock nut and no grease fitting.
"TRW" is cast into the shank and stamped on the bottom.
I think these came from FCP, but possibly NAPA.
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Bruce Young, '93 940-NA (current), 240s (one V8), 140s, 122s, since '63.
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I have 2 Moog tie rod ends in boxes that were made in Spain, stamped Moog no grease fittings.
Dan
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As a point of reference, I got the inner and outer tie rod ends from Advance Auto... not the cheapest route to go but when you need the parts by the next morning, its priceless!
jorrell
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92 245 250K miles, IPD'd to the hilt, 06 XC70, 00 Eclipse custom Turbo setup...currently taking names and kicking reputations!
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Dan,
For the heck of it, I checked my priciest highest quality supplier of desperation... Rare Parts, Inc. The picture for the outer tie rods that they are using are the TRW parts with the nylon lock nut. Bummer.
On the other hand, if you need a cast factory style ball joint for a 64 through 66 T-bird, they are the only place to go, the only other alternate aftermarket is a sheetmetal part that won't last 3K miles.
jorrell
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92 245 250K miles, IPD'd to the hilt, 06 XC70, 00 Eclipse custom Turbo setup...currently taking names and kicking reputations!
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Your honesty is refreshing and I think #2 is a huge clue, at least I see a possible connection to your "worn" parts. My understanding is that Federal-Mogul owns both Moog and TRW.
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I contributed to a thread about this a couple of years ago. At that time Moog and TRW were both owned by Federal Mogul and it was hit or miss what you got in the box. Many people bought what they thought were TRW parts and ended up with Moog in the box and vice versa. At the time, if you got TRW made somewhere in Europe you were getting the real deal since the TRW European operation was sold off seperately from the US operations.
My quick research just showed me that Federal Mogul no longer owns the TRW brand. It is owned by an investment group. Most of TRWs operations now appear to be in the former Soviet Bloc nations and China. Take it for what it is worth, but I'm guessing TRW quality is not going to be what it was years ago. Too bad. I'm going with Moog from now on.
Charles
Houston, TX
1987 245
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Do your TRW tie rod ends have the grease fitting on the bottom? I looked at a set from one of the local parts houses that did not have the grease fittings. I wound up buying a set from Moog that did have the fittings. Mine were not worn out, but the dust shields were cracked. 23 Years and 11 months will do that. I have added grease fittings to suspension parts for my other cars over the years. It's pretty easy to do, and they last much longer.
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No drilled holes in the base for grease nipples on the joints. The dust shields had no breaches, even after removal thanks to a sacrificial "nut" and an air chisel. Please note that I'm hoping the Moog parts come with grease fittings as that puts their longevity back in my hands!
jorrell
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92 245 250K miles, IPD'd to the hilt, 06 XC70, 00 Eclipse custom Turbo setup...currently taking names and kicking reputations!
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You can carefully drill them, and install fittings if they are not so equipped. Just wash the joints out with solvent and use a magnet to remove any chips that might enter the joint. The bottom cover is fairly thin, and you will be able to keep the cuttings from entering the joint if you chuck the tie rod end in a vise and drill horizontally. Grease them up with a high quality lube prior to driving, and apply new grease at each oil change.
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After reading "#2", I'd say that all bets are off... An impact mangling those U-bolts would put a huge load on the tie-rods.
-Ryan
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Athens, Ohio
1987 245 DL 314k, Dog-mobile
1990 245 DL 134k M47, E-codes, GT Sway Bars, GT Braces
1991 745 GL 300k, Regina, 23/21mm Turbo Sway Bars
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I got less than 2000 miles on a set of TRW ball joints on the 944. I've used TRW parts for years so you can imagine my surprise to find out they were sold. MOOG is the way to go for now.
Regards,
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Will Dallas, www.willdallas.us, www.willdallas.org, www.willdallas.com, www.dallasprecision.com 86 245 DL 222K miles, 93 940 260K miles, 88 765 GLE 152K miles
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I haven't had any of the issues like you have but I may have not reached the 32K mark either. One thing I have noticed is TRW boxes are labeled as made in various countries leading me to believe low bid is making their parts these days. I don't know if you can trust the quality of name brand parts anymore!!
I picked up what looks to be a very recently replaced rack at the bone yard a few months ago that has TRW outer tie rod ends that are also stamped Volvo. I think the rack is new, not rebuilt and was installed at a Volvo dealer. I wonder if there are different quality levels depending on who they sell the parts to??
Dan
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TRW has been a pretty reputable company for many years so I doubt they would put their name on parts that were of known low quality. But there are occasional manufacturing problems that don't get caught till a few parts have already been sold. I can see where the severity of the potholes in Rolla, NC might be sufficient to accelerate the wear, especially if the rack mounting bolts were stretched!
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George Downs, Bartlesville, Heart of the USA!
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Hi Dan
i believe there are different standards depending on who is selling the parts.
a friend of mine owns a tire store and told me the michelins ect, you buy at sams are not the same ones you may get elsewhere.
so many aftermarket parts are just junk.
good luck
Mike
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"a friend of mine owns a tire store and told me the michelins ect, you buy at sams are not the same ones you may get elsewhere."
Your friend has a self-serving interest in that statement. Michelin often gives its warehouse club tires a different name, and possibly slightly different specs, but the quality is comparable. In fact, the Radial X/X Radial from Sam's, Costco, etc. is actually rated higher than the nearly identical Michelin branded Harmony (which is nearly 50% more at tire shops).
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