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My 122 wagon is parked in the garage with an electrical mystery.
The engine starts and the car runs/drives. Engine dies when I :apply the brakes, use turn signal, turn on blower fan or turn on the wipers. It does not die when I turn on the lights.
This condition first occurred a couple months ago during a short drive home, and I posted on the BB at that time(thanks for your help then, folks). At the time, I ended up replacing the pcv hose and the car ran again. The car was running great this fall and I put over 1000 miles on it. Then, during a shopping trip the car died at a stoplight. I was able to carefully limp it home.
Now I am able to isolate the factors that make it die, as mentioned above. Also, when the key is in the on position, there is no amp light. When I use any of the accessories or the brake the amp light comes on full(engine dies). Now when the car is running, the amp light is glowing lightly.
Car is a 65 122, generator, b20f with pertronix, under dash push button starter, new battery, new battery cable and ground.
Your thoughts on what can cause a set of symptoms like this? Any help will be appreciated.
Video
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92 245, 1965 122 Wagon, past:95 850 Turbo, 92 245, 88 245, 82 245 Turbo, 71 164e
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First, the car needs a certain voltage at a certain current to operate. as an aside:
Generators do not need a battery as they store residual magnetism and use that to generate current, however a starter draws more than five to ten times auto generators' capacities. Thus "popping the clutch" gives you electrical current with a generator which has a voltage regulator to regulate both voltage and current. Alternators need a very small excitation voltage, not magnetism, so without a battery there is not voltage. No battery to excite the winding, no output. Alternators if disconnected or dumped while producing electrical power can cause spikes up to around 60 Volts DC. In general, an alternator equipped car should only be run with a battery, even with a manual trans.
On the question,usually the car's voltage is dropping below the minimum to operate, on computer cars it's about 9 to 10 volts. So if you step on the brakes- the brake light current draw , or turn on headlights-the headlight draw, etc. cause the current to divide lowering the voltage and causing the car to die.
On the question, if not a bad battery, this can be caused by a high resistance or bad connection. Get the schematics and check all connections from the battery to the ignition and any fuel pumps up to the branch connection for the things that make it die-those branch connections are good else they could not flow enough current to drop the voltage. Included in the words bad connection are also bad crimps and failed insulation.
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Check fuse 1, it may be burned out (it controls fan, turn signals, and wipers).
In my case, the amp light says nothing. The light is always glowing bright, but I can turn on the wipers, fan, rear fan, turn signals, head lights and the car keeps running.
I haven't done this yet, but while the motor is running, disconnect the positive from the battery. If the car keeps running, then the generator is not bad.
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Luke,
Why would a heater fuse cause the engine to die?
Goatman
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I vote for new generator brushes. Because the light glows at idle, it is not producing enough voltage to run the spark plugs and charge the battery.
Klaus
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Always willing to listen, just not able to take direction.
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Thanks Klaus, I will check the brushes. I have been meaning to order some to just switch them out. I am going to pull the pos. battery cable in the morning while it's running to see what happens.
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92 245, 1965 122 Wagon, past:95 850 Turbo, 92 245, 88 245, 82 245 Turbo, 71 164e
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Klaus,
How would it start then?
Goatman
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The starter runs off the battery, not the generator which powers the coil.
Klaus
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Always willing to listen, just not able to take direction.
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Klaus,
I looked up some vintage diagrams, but the coil is powered by a fused battery lead.
Are you saying that if the generator belt breaks, the car will instantly stall? And the car will not start at all without a belt attached?
Please explain. Do you have any diagrams I could look at?
Goatman
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One a generator type engine is started, you can throw the battery away.
Klaus
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Always willing to listen, just not able to take direction.
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Klaus,
I still don't understand. I was able to push start my 1983 Volvo engine with a modern 100 amp Denso alternator. The battery was at about 8 volts after hours with the brites on. I was parked at the top of a parking structure and was able to roll the car down and pop the clutch in 2nd. It fired right up when I hit the key to on.
Can the car run without a generator?
Goatman
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And with a generator you can roll the car and start it without a battery. Once the generator stops generating volts, the engine dies.
Klaus
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Always willing to listen, just not able to take direction.
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Klaus,
That doesn't mean that the car won't start without a generator, it means that the car can run without a battery.
I would like to go to a hill and try running my car without a battery connected, just for reference.
I want to know the specific connection to the ignition coil. I'm pretty stubborn Klaus, like a good goat.
Goatman
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Goatman,
No offense but I don't think you understand how the electrical system even works. Do you even own a 122? If a car is missing the battery and the generator, it will not start. the coil needs to get power from some source.
I would attach a wiring diagram, but this forum makes it hard for uploads. The coil is wired through the ignition switch which gets it's power from the battery side of the charging relay. From the B+ terminal on the relay, a wire runs to the starter and from the starter to the battery.
After the engine is started, the engine should run without the battery. If it doesn't then that means that the generator is not producing enough current to run the engine (which means that it is bad). Now if the battery is fully charged, one should be able to start the car and run the accessories without the engine dying.
The charging relay could also be a fault, but changing the brushes is an cheap and easy solution.
Popping the clutch is used for when your starter doesn't work.
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Lukeball,
It was Klaus who said that the engine would not run without a generator. Without any literature, I was forced to assume the unlikely existence of some sort of magneto.
I am well aware and versed of the theory and operation of simple automobile electronics. Which is why I answered the post. No, I would not like to own a 122.
The problem with the vehicle is likely a bad chassis ground which would explain all symptoms. That’s why I asked the poster to measure the voltage between the frame and the engine.
Goatman
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My car has been converted to alternator so I cannot look at the wiring. People love starter motors, so the starter is driven by the battery. The battery also supplies initial current to the coil, to help the start process I assume.
In the good ole days, you just turned the switch on and pushed the Jeep down the hill, popped the clutch in 2nd gear, and drove off with a totally dead battery, or without.
Klaus
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Always willing to listen, just not able to take direction.
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Hi,
Dass ist ein sehr herrliches Auto! I really enjoyed the movie, the aspect ratio was a bit strange though.
Ich denke sie sind semlich verblüfft. I think that ground wire is a good place to start. Would yo tell me more about how you replaced it? Could you measure the voltage with the ignition on from the engine block to the frame?
Goatman
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Hello Goatman,
Vielen Dank' on the car.
I replaced the battery cables with 1 gauge cable, and new quick release terminals and copper ends. Thanks for your input so far. I have some time in the morning to mess around with the car, so I will let you know what I find.
Steve
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92 245, 1965 122 Wagon, past:95 850 Turbo, 92 245, 88 245, 82 245 Turbo, 71 164e
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