Here is the scenario/update (for those who haven't read up on my plight).

I replaced the clutch, rear main seal and oil pan on my car. I removed the engine and transmission to do this.

After returning the engine/transmission to the car, it was hard to start.

It would click (the starter/solenoid), and occasionally slowly crank the engine. most times, it wouldn't do anything. Hooked up to a KNOWN working battery, it would repeat these symptoms. If I had my truck running, and jumped the car, it would start. It ran fine, no symptoms or anything. However, once the engine was shut off, it wouldn't re-start.

I've replaced:

neg battery cable.
pos battery cable.
battery
starter
cable to the alternator.

I've cleaned the grounds and checked continuity/resistance. they're fine.

with the new battery, it does the same symptom. so I thought maybe it was the starter, took it to where I bought it but they said it was fine.

disconnecting the starter from the power, and the battery doesn't drop in volts (I didn't check and don't have the capabilities to check amps).

I get 12+ volts at the ignition. I jumped it and it tries to crank and then just clicks (solenoid). I jumped it both directly from the battery and from the plug towards the back of the engine.

I removed the spark plugs from the car to see if it would in turn crank (suspecting maybe there was a compression issue). It would crank, but not very fast. eventually, it would drain the battery and just click the solenoid.

I was able to manually turn the engine, although after trying to turn it with the starter it tends to be REALLY hard to turn. But give it a little time and I'm able to hand crank the engine.

does anyone have any idea what it could be? It seems to be an electrical issue.

A little update (and might be rehashing, I don't remember).

I'm starting to think that it has to be the starter/solenoid.

Why? well, my feeble brain refuses to grasp any other option.

I've replaced the pos and neg cables, the cable to the alternator, the ground at the alternator, the ground to the fender (from the battery cable), the ignition female connection AT the solenoid, and I've checked for volt readings from the battery to the starter (it's there), and all of the grounds (going from + to ground with the multimeter, it's there) and I've jumped it three different ways.

With the jump thing at the firewall, doing a jump at the starter/solenoid AND a direct line from the battery. I've tried using the jumper cables to add a new ground (from both the ex manifold to the bolts on inner fender and other places on the engine to the body of the car), and it didn't change things.

I'm gonna try using the truck battery next, but I'm not sure that will make a difference. I'm getting juice to the starter, it's just not doing anything (other then slow cranks, and then draining the battery).

I don't have an amp meter but my charger shows that after I try to start the car, the battery (once it's hooked up to the charger) draws 4 amps. it doesn't take long for it to read less than 1 amp. I'm assuming that's a good sign?

Anyways, I'm going to go to the PNP today (probably) and see if I can manuever one of the starters off. Hopefully its' doable.

Yes,


I would use the most gigantic battery possible.


Goatman

I just finished checking it with the Truck battery (the truck has a 7.5 liter engine).

I did a straight jump (to the cables) and then via the battery. Nothing.

I think that eliminates battery being the issue.

to the guy who asked where I am, I'm in Portland. I've been busy the last few days, that's why I haven't responded.

I replaced the ground from the fender to the battery (the new cable didn't have one as thick as the OEM cable), and it seemed to make a little difference.

Still drains the battery (of amps) when I try to start it though. :(

Before I replaced the fender ground, I did try to ground out the engine to the stud from the strut. It did seem to be a little better, but nothing exciting.

I haven't tried that with the new ground in (or after the battery charges again).

I don't think it will make a difference though.

One thing I did try was taking the lines coming off the battery (with the 25 amp on it) and place it on the junction box off the battery. Since it gets power, I figured that couldn't hurt AND it clears up the wire mess at the battery.

I'm new to the PNW, up in Seattle. Nice to know someone in the area (sorta). I have a 87 245 with automatic and had a starting problem also. Started after I replaced the intake manifold gasket. Traced it to the grey connector on the firewall. I disconnected the connector to move the harness to get the intake manifold off. Seems the harness is deteriorating (has never been replaced with the newer version) and the connector pins did not make good contact. Sometimes it would work. Sometimes not. From the diagram in the Green Book, the jumper at the firewall is upstream of the grey connector, so you could have tried using that and if the problem is in the connector it would not have worked.

Sorry if this has already been addressed. Just a new discovery (for me).

Charles
Bothell, WA (formerly Houston, TX)

First off, welcome to the region. It's nice here. ;)

Secondly, I'm quoting most of what you said because i'm lazy.

I'm new to the PNW, up in Seattle. Nice to know someone in the area (sorta).


do you know about the IPD garage sale?

I have a 87 245 with automatic and had a starting problem also. Started after I replaced the intake manifold gasket. Traced it to the grey connector on the firewall. I disconnected the connector to move the harness to get the intake manifold off. Seems the harness is deteriorating (has never been replaced with the newer version) and the connector pins did not make good contact. Sometimes it would work. Sometimes not. From the diagram in the Green Book, the jumper at the firewall is upstream of the grey connector, so you could have tried using that and if the problem is in the connector it would not have worked.


I did disconnect my connector earlier today. It appeared fine and I replaced it 4 years ago with a new(er) harness.

I printed up what you said, so i can study it when I'm working on the car. Hopefully something will help. :)

I would go to a P&P and get a starter,the P&P I go to starters are only $15. I have picked up several starters for 240's and never got a bad one.

It sounds like a starter problem or ground wire.How about the ground from fire wall to engine.That one gets over looked.

Good luck, Charlie

"How about the ground from fire wall to engine. That one gets over looked."

That's just there to reduce radio noise. It has nothing to do with engine operation.

But it can get hot and smoke when cranking, if the bigger (battery to body) ground is not doing it's job.


--
Bruce Young, '93 940-NA (current), 240s (one V8), 140s, 122s, since '63.

I'm leaning towards going to the PNP in Portland to get a starter, for that exact reason. that and to have an extra one.

The ground from the engine to firewall...isn't that mostly for the radio? I have checked it and it seems fine/clean.

I have to have my truck pass DEQ tomorrow after work, so I won't be getting the starter tomorrow. :(

Look while you are there at the P&P into ground cables on our cars. If you are lucky, they may still be some there or robbed for their copper.

You will notice that there are two blue ground cables to the negative post.

One goes to the fender and another goes under to the engine block to a bracket-mounting bolt. I know because I have other wiring harness stuff strapped to it.

Phil

I actually replaced that line.

I wonder if maybe the line I have going to the fender isn't thick enough?

I think it's a main ground from fire wall to engine. If you go to P&P grab the ground wire also since it won't cost much.

If the engine->chassis ground has not been checked, and checked again, it is the natural thing to do first, as it's simple.

When you jumped it from the truck, how did you hook up the jumper cables in teh Volvo? Positive cable to battery+, and negative cable to ground on engine block? If so, you effectively bypassed the engine->chassis ground strap.

Put a known fully charged battery in the car, and use your jumper cables to make a temporary engine->chassis ground. That is to say, clamp one end of jumper cables to engine, somewhere on the intake manifold is good, as it's clean. Other end to chassis. I usually go with the studs that hold the strut mounts, as they are clean. Use *both* the the cables as ground straps, to maximize chances of having good connection.

Then try to start it, with it's own (fully charged) battery. If it starts, then replace or install a new ground strap.

That this happened after pulling the engine and transmission really leads me to think this is the most likely culprit. Maybe there was never an engine->ground, but for some other reason, it was getting good ground, but you disturbed that ground in the work you did...

In any event, you can perform this test about 3 times in times in time it took me to write this up.

Always simple first.


--
-Matt I ♥ my ♂

(I copy and pasted your post to respond)


When you jumped it from the truck, how did you hook up the jumper cables in teh Volvo? Positive cable to battery+, and negative cable to ground on engine block? If so, you effectively bypassed the engine->chassis ground strap.


I did +terminal to + terminal and - to -.



Put a known fully charged battery in the car, and use your jumper cables to make a temporary engine->chassis ground. That is to say, clamp one end of jumper cables to engine, somewhere on the intake manifold is good, as it's clean. Other end to chassis. I usually go with the studs that hold the strut mounts, as they are clean. Use *both* the the cables as ground straps, to maximize chances of having good connection.


I'm a little confused by that. Hook up the battery as normal, and then do two ground connections?

OR hook it up as normal AND use the jumper cables to make a new ground (i.e., from the manifold to the strut mounts)?


Then try to start it, with it's own (fully charged) battery. If it starts, then replace or install a new ground strap.

That this happened after pulling the engine and transmission really leads me to think this is the most likely culprit. Maybe there was never an engine->ground, but for some other reason, it was getting good ground, but you disturbed that ground in the work you did...

In any event, you can perform this test about 3 times in times in time it took me to write this up.

Always simple first.




What about sanding the living hell out of the washer that is there, and sanding the paint off too (of the firewall)?

How about we stop calling them jumper cables, and start calling them nice, big, heavy duty wires with handy dandy clamps attached at each end.

All I'm suggesting is to simply use the nice, big, heavy duty wires with handy dandy clamps attached at each end as temporary ground straps between the engine and the chassis. clamp one end to engine, the other end to chassis. Yes, battery hooked up as normal. Also jump from battery negative to engine I suppose. If that works, great!

If it works, then start sanding/cleaning/replacing/adding permanent ground strap.

If it doesn't work, well then... move onto other possibilities.

When you're done with the test, we can go back to calling them jumper cables :)



--
-Matt I ♥ my ♂

I tested the engine without the plugs in and the line to the alternator disconnected. It cranked better than it did before, but still what seems to be, not that fast.

I don't know that means though. Outside of making me think it's not a flywheel thing or something engine (mechanical) related.

Still smells electrical (in the sense that I think it's electrical).

Is there a voltage regulator or something? I know there's something on the alternator, is that a voltage regulator?

Some things to ponder.
- It starts fine when boosted
- It turns over very slow with the new battery
- It is hard to turn over by hand

So your truck battery (stronger?) will start it, but the car one doesn't? Like jfj0jfh, I'm thinking the starter is fine but something is binding. Try disconnecting the alt and power steering belts to see if it turns over easier. Or if you don't mind resetting the timing, go further and remove the timing belt.

A bad ground should show up with the truck battery also, but to check, use a booster cable from the -ve post to the block near the starter, thus bypassing the other ground connections.
--
1980 245 Canadian B21A with SU carb but electronic ignition and M46 trans in Brampton, Ont.

Thanks for the input.

The truck battery has higher CCA's, and is for a much bigger engine. Although I don't know if that matters much.

I haven't tested the truck battery on the NEW starter (busy/rainy/work).

I'm going to try the removing of the PS and Alternator belts next.

I was also wondering (for all to answer): Could it be an alternator issue? I'm going to also try disconnecting the line from the starter to the alternator. it would seem (in my feeble mind) that if the alternator is having an issue, it could draw from the battery and screw up the starter.

Although when it did start/run, the alternator seemed to be charging the battery (in that it read + 14 on the meter).

The brush on the back of the alternator (volt regulator?? Not sure the name at this early an hour in the day) were worn, but not at the point where the Bentley implies they're bad (5 mm or less. I'm at a MIN of 6.5 mm).

Although I don't know why it didn't turn for a while (esp with no spark plugs in the car), the engine turned relatively easy by hand.

RE: Timing belt.

I replaced that...shoot...2 years ago? I'm not sure if that'd be an issue.

The suggestion to remove the timing belt was on the assumption that something is binding. (You said it was hard to turn by hand.) Without the belt only the crank would be turned and the idler and cam wouldn't be there to offer resistance.

Your first post indicates you replaced the starter. If the symptoms remained the same with the replacement starter, I doubted that the starter was the problem. Rather a bad connection to it.

However, maybe you were given a starter which draws excess current which the truck battery can handle. So see if you can get a replacement starter.

Your profile doesn't indicate where you live, but if it is near Brampton, Ont, I have spare starters.
--
1980 245 Canadian B21A with SU carb but electronic ignition and M46 trans in Brampton, Ont.

If the starter works fine on the bench and you're sure you have a good ground to the engine block, it sure sounds like there's something binding/ misaligned.

You somehow bent the flywheel or front pulley when you were working on the engine?
--
240s: 2 drivers and some parts cars

I can't imagine how that happened.

That doesn't mean it didn't though. I readily admit I might be ignorant on somethings.

the flywheel was re-surfaced, and it's (at least, imho) hard to put it on wrong.

The car ran fine (when it has started). There are no roughness, or balance issues that I can hear/sense. I would assume (and I could be completely wrong) that if something was aligned screwy, the engine would show it when it's running.

Your car is perplexing to say the least.

I wrote sometime ago that I thought it was a bad starter. After reading your many posts, it appears to be the starter or lack of a ground directly to the engine block.

I was spending some time thinking about the transmission/flywheel. I wondered if it was possible to bolt it up wrong. I have to say that should be hard to do so, I am back to the starter because the flywheel would affect the clutch operation too.

A bad armature or solenoid can either suck a battery down because the power is either not used through the windings efficiently or not letting the juice get in to the starter motor. If the armature is bad, it will take out the solenoid because the current fries the contacts and it gets worse in to ways.

To properly rebuild a starter; all armatures need to be tested on a growler. If your old starter just quits it is a safer to rebuild it yourself than to buy a rebuild because you know what you have, if you tear it down. If it looks bad then you go shopping, with knowledge, for good parts from an auto electric parts house or the next best choice P&P. These starters have been around for years.

I do not trust rebuilders to be thorough. They gamble, with some idea, that most starters have bad engagement gears, worn brushes or a bearing in a worst-case core average. They fly through them with the least expensive labor and sell an insurance policy for back up. You know, limited and lifetime warranties are a business.

The starter appears to have all the problems no matter what you hook to it.
Phil

My brother n' law had a starter go out on him while his car was in the shop. The mechanic installed a rebuild from Autozone (cheap mechanic) and it wouldn't work. He tried another one from Autozone and it didn't work. I had a used one that someone had given me and it worked. So two rebuilt starters (not bosch) failed to work.