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Has anybody removed and replaced a thermal time switch on a CI engine [in my case the B23]? I think I can just see something that looks like an electrical connection emanating from the block just below number four intake manifold pipe [looking at the engine from the top]. It was described by the website on Volvo fuel injection systems as being 'below number four injector'. Haynes says that one should partially drop some coolant and then remove it. No reference to its position on the engine.
I haven't lifted the car yet and had a look at the job from beneath. Would this be the way to go? And what has to be removed to clear a way to it?
I am getting no spray from the cold start injector and no twelve volt reading after the engine has started. This points to the thermal switch as the culprit according to the manual.
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Hi there,
I have been reading over the posts and can agree that the thermal time switch is very reliable.
What others are saying that a little detective work might get you closer to that masked villain!
The TTS very simple device and does not do anything a lot of the time and when it does it can only pass current during the crank cycle. The start injector is supplementing the other injectors so it does not take much "on" time!
The symptom you describe appears to me to be a control pressure issue or a rest pressure issue.
The latter if it does not start right up most times.
If the control pressure is stuck high or just a little too high this will create lean conditions. This is because the control pressure is holding the air flap, that is beneath the throttle but inside the fuel distributor from rising high enough to expose the fuel slots in the distributor.
This cold temperature setting is already suppose to enrich things for normal range coldness. It's like a bass guitar and some strings chime in there to "fill in the bottom end" of an arrangement so everyone sounds evened out with harmony!
After the engines hits and continues running it should idle up about 300 rpm above normal for about 30 seconds unless the engine has already been warmed up.
You have two things in the system that must work together. The control pressure regulator and an auxiliary air valve. Both have electric heaters in them to "mimic" the warming of the engine. This is all part of a later AMM. Mechanically preset or programmed!
For the most part, the control pressure regulator is not adjustable (unless you know how to program with gauges) so you have to adjust the air valve to work with it! Too much air and you think you need choke. Too much air after it gets "too burning" then the idle is to high if things are normal.
Not enough air it's the other away around.
If the control pressure is off then its "Starving Marvin" the whole time. It can get so bad that even if you plugged the idle bypass off line and closed the knob, it would start hard.
Not enough control pressure and the car can grow a black tail! (:-)
You could be suffering cool morning laziest in the power department if the control pressure is not fluctuating. Might run a little under powered but not real noticeable as the system is fairly well engineered to get the job done. IMHO
You really ought to put some pressure gauges in the lines to see if things are up to specifications. I gather you feel the auxiliary air settings are correct or very close.
We"ll be watching for more Continuous Injection(s)! (:-)
Phil
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Thanks for your input machine man.
Could you tell me what kind of pressure gauges I would require to adjust to optimum? Is there a website somewhere that is showing this setup? Or perhaps this is getting too technical for me and I should take it to my very good local Volvo garage to have it done.
I do know that I am getting no fuel from the cold start injector and this is what led to my original question. I do have another cold start injector and will try it out today or tomorrow to see if I can get any fuel out of it.
Weather here is quite mild right now but I still have the three part startup as a regular feature of the car. It is worse in mid winter but I did not drive the 242 in the winter this year. Using the 940 instead which starts like a damn under every circumstance. The 240 used to perform like that if my memory holds well.
Even seeing that thermal switch has eluded me so far. .
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The set I have, I got from a tool supplier off of eBay. Forget the outfits name.
It was a set recommended by a fellow Brick poster, LUCID. He has a lot of knowledge of the K-system. You might try his mind for more ideas!
I have not used it as of yet but my car '78 is old enough to use an overall tuning inspection.
I have been mindful of keeping fresh gas and a few fuel filter changes over the years. It is probably why I have never had to tweak or fix stuff over these many years.
I am basically the only owner since it had 8k on it. I am standing close to 350k now. It's been very reliable with only a few hiccups due mostly to a intermittent frequency valve/ O2 sensor relay, on the left fender or ignition system component renewals.
The control pressure regulator is "supposedly" adjustable, if it goes out of tolerance. They had to calibrate the darn thing but it has to be done on the bench as requires observation/adjusting to set the heating/cooling cycles pressures.
Then again, adjusting could mean only the cleaning of some fuel screens. In most cases that may even involve the inlets to the fuel distributor for good measure. This might be considered cleaning an AMM but with better success.
The reason I bought my gauges on a good discount and Lucid recommendation. I do not remember the brand and I am not home to look, sorry. I think it ran me about $80 with shipping included, then.
I figured I would spend that much in labor plus, I could clean and salvage the components with a bench test setup if needed.
Getting experience comes with learning is like a horse and a carriage. Doing a job is always half done, if you have tools that help or a helper to do it for you?
Just depends which one you decide, goes or comes first.
Let us know the outcome.
Phil
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posted by
someone claiming to be CB
on
Sun May 11 16:56 CST 2014 [ RELATED]
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Even seeing that thermal switch has eluded me so far. .
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
on my B21F
It's screwed into the Cylinder head, at the rear of the engine, look for where the Intake manifold #4 cylinder bottom stud bolt is...just by that lower nut is the TTS...What you will see is the electrical connector just like the one on the ColdStart Inj. right by the heater hose that goes from the engine thru the firewall.
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I THINK I have now seen the little culprit. If that is it it is mounted just below the rearmost manifold intake pipe. What with all of the hoses in there nothing is very visible or accessible. I can see that I will have to remove the intake manifold if I am to work on anything there. . . Then I get to break an intake manifold bolt . . . just being pessimistic here.
Regardless, I changed out the cold start injector, replacing it with the original one that came with the car. I then managed to get it to cough up some gas when I shorted the white wire thereby bypassing the thermal switch [weather here is giving us a preview of summer and has been in the sixties and seventies lately]
So I know for sure that the injector works. But I am still not sure of the thermal switch. . . and I removed the blue/yellow wire from the starter motor and did not take note of the fact there are two terminals on the solenoid both of which are the same size. I am hoping they are hooked to each other and that it does not matter what terminal I use to redeploy the blue/yellow wire.
From what I can see there is only one terminal for the blue/yellow wire in the various diagrams I have from Haynes and my other main manual.
Many thanks for your inputs. All very valuable.
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Just caught your message and saw your remark about the solenoid wires.
I think it makes a difference on which terminal is the ground side. The coil will not pull in the armature and push contacts closed that connect the starter motor up to the battery.
The DC current creates steady magnetic field so it should/could be directional sensitive.
AC current does "not" do steady and coils are made differently and your thinking is correct it makes no difference in "most" all cases about the leads.
But not to worry, if it does not crank you will just have to reverse the leads.
Sort of just got me to thinking, of which might be a bad thing, there is a possibility OF might?
Should Any Accessories become connected on the improper terminal side of that coil they
would not get enough current due to coils resistance. That bad boy pulls off some amperage.
Worth noting or spying on, if the k- jet cold start is not working, in by some chance, the wires got separated and one put on the wrong side...??
Power i.e. current from the key, to the TTS, may not be there.
Just a thought, that is very highly unlikely!
Phil
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posted by
someone claiming to be CB
on
Tue May 13 17:33 CST 2014 [ RELATED]
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well now that it's warm out, the CldStart Inj and the TTS are petty much out of the loop.
So if you still are having that "first start in the morning" problem, they are not the problem.
On the solenoid, there is a push-on terminal with a BRN wire and another for the Bl/ylw. Some have a double at the Bl/Ylw.
Here is a link the the full Volvo Problem Solvers Advanced Edition. It was put together by a Volvo mechanic for other Volvo mechanics, used to be sold by IPD, but is now out of print. Covers older Volvos. Very good.
http://www.volvowiringdiagrams.com/?dir=volvo/Trouble%20Shooting%20Guides
Also if you go to Home on this site you will find the Green Books for earlier years for download as well as wiring diagrams.
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I did find this loose brown female terminal with two wires running to it. One is brown the other is possibly black. It is too narrow to fit on either of the two terminals that I can see emanating from the solenoid so I don't know whether it has been connected to something or not. It might have come loose when I pulled the blue/yellow wire loose from the solenoid. It does not seem to have affected the running of the car so far. Will check this morning before the heat of the day arrives. Thanks for all of your input again and for the link to the wiring diagrams. Much appreciated.
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I think you've now found your problem. You are not seeing the terminal on the starter--it is opposite the solenoid actuating terminal. Maybe it has rusted and has broken off? Get a mirror down there to see better. If need be I'll take a photo of an already removed starter to send you directly. Call me at six-three one 968-8933 to reach me faster. -- Dave
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Hello Dave,
I checked the 1983 wiring diagram after I had checked the 1981 wiring diagram. The 1983 Bentley diagram shows ONLY the blue/yellow wire going to the solenoid [other than the large red ones of course]. The 1981 showed a brown wire going to the solenoid. My car being a 1982 does seem to fit into the middle but it could have been an early 1983. I had as good a look as I can manage and cannot see another terminal. I suspect this cream coloured connector is simply connecting the brown wire to the other wire and has been left to hang in space.
The car started up well today on the first few turns of the starter. Weather is in the sixties even in the morning so I will have to wait till Junuary to get some colder weather again. June is often wet and cold on the wet coast.
Bob
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posted by
someone claiming to be CB
on
Wed May 14 14:24 CST 2014 [ RELATED]
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1982 was one of those transition years...all were KJet but some has Bosch Ignitions and some had the MPG Computer.
The Green Book 81 wiring diagram is the one you want...but you have to look for the MPG version or the Bosch Breakerless ...depending on which you have.
If an 83 the car would have an LH Injection System. Fully computer controlled with an individual electric connections to each injector and a fuel rail, AMM.
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posted by
someone claiming to be CB
on
Sun May 11 17:36 CST 2014 [ RELATED]
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easy tests ---page from the VolvoProblem Solver
http://s819.photobucket.com/user/arlo244/media/ColdStInjTTS.jpg.html?sort=3&o=0
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posted by
someone claiming to be CB
on
Sat May 10 14:07 CST 2014 [ RELATED]
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If it's a CIS KJet ---it is Located under the #4 intake
However before you go there.
Why do you think it's the problem...
The engine won't start when it is cold Outside ---like in the 40s?
The time switch will only pass current to the Coldstart Inj--to fire a short squirt-- Below a certain Temp---the THERMAL part of its name.
If it is needed to fire the Coldstart Inj, the current Also heats the TTS so that its switch opens and the ColdStart Inj STOPS squirting after a few seconds -----The "TIME" part of its name. Otherwise the engine can flood.
The ColdStart Inj should have no current when the engine is running. Current to this Inj opens it. The ThermalTime Switch controls the current flow.
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Hi CB,
Mine is not CIS, only CI from what I can determine. I followed your explanation of operation of the thermal time switch and it is close to what I had thought the operational pattern was.
The car will start. I have to 'hit' the starter motor three times in the morning when I first go out to it. After that all is well. I am trying to get rid of that morning workout for the starter motor. I usually hit it once. Wait to hear the fuel pump run up. Hit again. Wait for the fuel pump run up. Hit a third time and it starts with a bit of accelerator pumping.
When I did the check, I removed the cold start injector and hit the starter [first thing in the morning]. No fuel emitted. I tried it a couple of times but could not get fuel happening. I returned the injector to its proper location and took off the electrical connector
I then started the car and ran it up to operating temperature all the while monitoring voltage across the terminal prongs to the cold start injector. No twelve volts appeared.
I do admit my voltmeter, etc., is not completely top notch and the connections were a tad shaky however. Could be my test apparatus is giving me some trouble.
But the car is not starting well in the morning regardless.
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posted by
someone claiming to be CB
on
Sat May 10 16:56 CST 2014 [ RELATED]
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Is yours K-Jet Fuel Injection? Or is it an LH---computer controlled system with an AirMassMeter -AMM, a fuel rail and electric connections to each of the 4 primary injectors.
K-Jet works like this.
There will be no voltage at the Coldstart Inj wires if the Temp (air temp) is above --- not sure of the specs, but I seem to remember like 60-65F).
There will be no voltage once the engine starts and runs (like in winter) after a few seconds...again don't remember the specs but 8-10 seconds tops in like at sub Zero ...the ColdStart Inj should stop squirting.
The TTS won't pass current to the ColdStart Inj.
If it's warm enough outside, and you disconnect the Connector to the ColdStart Inj. The engine should start . If it's really cold outside it will have a tough time starting or not start at all. When it's cold enough, that's when you should find current at that connector.
Where you want to test is the wires to the TTS itself. Think of the TTS as a simple light switch. One wire runs current in the other runs the current out. If the switch is in the off position the current can't pass to the other side.
Unplug the conector to the TTS and test there.
If your problem is the first start in the morning and your only problem is ---three shots of the starter---- odds on it's not the TTSwitch.
Don't know where you live, but this winter has been COLD across the US. If you've only had the "three shots" all winter, then it is definitly not the TTS/ColdStart Inj.
The TTS with the ColdStart Inj are esentially an AutoMatic Choke...in carburator terms, in these early Fuel Injection systems.
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posted by
someone claiming to be CB
on
Sat May 10 17:42 CST 2014 [ RELATED]
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My first Volvo was a 75 245 with a B20 K-Jet FI.
The TTS was located at the rear of the block on the exhaust side. The poorly designed location was right next to the Oil filter. After breaking off the end connector to the TTS with a slip of an oilfilter wrench, I paid for a new one.
My local Volvo dealers parts manager (back when it was family owned and staffed) told me, when I asked: do I really need this thing, --- You won't need it now but when it gets into winter you will.
The second time that wrench slipped, I decided that I wasn't gonna pay again for this poorly designed sophisticated Light Switch. (having figured out how it worked)
I clipped connector wires...added and ran them to the center console and mounted a small toggle switch in a spare blank next to the hazzard switch.
When it was cold, I flipped the switch, turned-on the Cold Start Injector, counted to 3 or 5 and flipped off the Injector soon after the engine started.
K-Jet only solution.
Haven't thought about or worked out how the LH Computer interface would work with this "fix" .
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The smallest terminal on the starter solenoid is what brings current to the TTS. The cold start valve will only work as long as the starter is cranking--and then only for a few seconds till the "thermal" part of the TTS disconnects the current. On the older B20 motors with D-jet injection it was common for the TTS to lose ground to the block - that may be your problem (solution to that problem was to remove the TTS, clean all threads and then reinstall). My '80 245 and '84 245 turbo with K-jet fire up with the cold start valve on the 2nd or 3rd revolution with the starter--yours should too. -- Dave
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Hello Dave,
Thanks for your valuable input. My experience with this car dates back over twenty years and I don't remember it having this startup issue in years gone by. So far I have not been able to actually see the switch, let alone try to get it out of there. It could just be a broken lead, given the fragile nature of the wires running along under there. I did do a rewire several years ago, taking out the crumbled wiring and replacing it.
So it only comes on when the car is actually cranking. That is a revelation.
This is from the K jet site.
Testing the cold start injector is fairly easy. Just remove it from the intake manifold [and make sure to bolt down the ground wires again]. Now have a friend try to start the car while you hold the cold start injector in a small bottle or napkin or some such. If it sprays out fuel you're good to go. If it doesn't you have a problem. I DID NOT GET FUEL SPRAY.
The best way to try and solve this problem of whether it's the cold start injector or the thermal time switch causing the problem is to get out your voltage meter and hook it up across the two little tangs in the plug that hooks up to the cold start injector. If, when you start the car you get 12 volts across the cold start injector plug, then the thermal time switch is working and the cold start injector is faulty. If you don't get 12 volts across the plug, then the thermal time switch needs to be replaced I DID NOT GET 12 VOLTS
But, according to your layout I should only get 12 volts when the car is actually cranking. Right? I checked for the 12 volts when the car was actually running. But if the TTS only operates during cranking then the voltage should only be seen while the car is cranking. Am I getting that right?
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muskox37 wrote--"But, according to your layout I should only get 12 volts when the car is actually cranking. Right? I checked for the 12 volts when the car was actually running. But if the TTS only operates during cranking then the voltage should only be seen while the car is cranking. Am I getting that right?"
That's right--voltage at the TTS only when cranking--and therefore only at the cold start valve when cranking. Since you did check the cold start that way without seeing fuel your next step would be to check the connections at the TTS the same way. Also check that the very small slip on connector at the starter (not the normal size slip on connector for starter actuation) solenoid is connected and tight -- you can check that terminal for voltage too---also + only when cranking as that is the source of + for the cold start system.
I don't think you need to check into fuel pressure at the warm-up regulator - especially if the motor runs well when warming up and then when fully warm. There's nothing you can do except replace the W-U-R if it's numbers aren't correct (actually it can be adjusted if you know what you're doing but that's not an ordinary service procedure) but I think your problem is electrical. -- Dave
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Just a follow up Dave. The weather has definitely turned for the better so I don't know how much is due just to warmer days, but I can say that the car is starting much better than before. It doesn't catch right away but after perhaps four revolutions it catches and runs. I also put some time into timing it so that could be entering the picture as well. Once it has run it starts immediately when the key is turned.
I was never able to really get to the thermal switch however so I could still have a problem just waiting for colder weather to return.
My understanding of the switch and the cold start injector is much better now however thanks to you and the others who replied to my question.
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CB wrote--"The TTS with the ColdStart Inj are esentially an AutoMatic Choke...in carburator terms, in these early Fuel Injection systems." Well, sort of -- but more like the accelerator pump and with the Control Pressure Regulator (aka-warm-up regulator) as a "choke". -- Dave
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posted by
someone claiming to be CB
on
Sat May 10 19:48 CST 2014 [ RELATED]
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when I thought further or farther...Ken Kesey on Board? it's like that rubber bulb on your SnowBlower that you pump...with the choke on full.
other than that
donna take off that intake manifold and replace the TTS until you investigate other stuff.
http://www.litkicks.com/Images/kenkesey.jpg
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posted by
someone claiming to be CB
on
Sat May 10 21:00 CST 2014 [ RELATED]
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PS speaking of Kesey
IMHO
this was great released at the same time of the Last Volvo 240
http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/32915.Sailor_Song
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Yes, that is where the thermal time switch lives. Basically in the same place as the LH ECT sensor.
One way to confirm would be the wiring color. Two blue/yellow wires and one white. They are most likely obscured by a rubber boot, though.
No, I have not removed one of these. But it looks to be a real bear.
When this comes up in LH discussions the usual advice seems to be to remove the intake manifold. But not having done it I can't say that's the only approach and it seems to me that an alternative has been suggested. Sorry, I don't recall what that is. But if it is possible, someone here will know. Probably Art B.
--
'80 DL 2 door, '89 DL Wagon
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