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My 1989 manual gasoline 240 will crank with gusto, but not start. There appears to be a spark, and the tailpipe smells of gasoline after abou 20 seconds of cranking.
I tried disconnecting the Air Mass Meter during the cranking process. No success.
There is a spark going though #1 spark plug wire.
I have a 1989 automatic 240 I can swap parts with. Is the ECU the same on both vehicles? Rather, can they be interchanged?
This is truly a mystery!
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Good evening!
I just had a similar problem. Sudden no start in sub zero weather. I don't know if this makes sense but I think it might have been the IACV that got sticky, it didn't move smooth like it used to. After I cleaned it along with the rest of the intake system, including removing a mouse nest in the air filter box, it fired up perfectly.
Hope it helps,
Joakim
MPLS
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I have not done anything with the IACV. The next time this problem shows itself, I'll remove and clean it.
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Ok..... that's simple enough.
Just keep listening for the engine to race up when started and then fall down to an immediate smooth idle every time. No touching of the gas pedal allowed. Just turn the key and it fires up!
That way you will know the IACV has no problems.
Have the other intermittent problems gone away?
How the gas mileage doing since it use to smell?
Phil
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Phil,
When I start the engine now, it fires and runs after a few revolutions, with no racing rpm. I just turn the key, with no input to the gas pedal.
Still a vexing problem, because I am sure I have not solved it. Hard to correct an intermittent problem when it is in the "ok" phase.
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Michael,
That is odd that it's not racing up a few hundred RPM past normal idle for a second or so and drop back. That is what I call a lazy hit and start.
I will say that when the engine is warm the delay to idle back is quicker or shorter. When the engine is cold the rev is there to help break cold friction drag.
It is my understanding that the IACValve is given a full open signal by the ECU when starting up. While on the '89+ models it about like the pre- pump mode to fill the fuel rail.
After Receiving the rpm signal from the CPS the ECU turns on the fuel pump system relay and rolls back the IACV after passing the 750 rpm mark.
There should always some "overshoot" as the IACV nothing more than a half turn electric motor with a vane attached on the end.
There are two types. One on earlier cars are driven both ways by current. The one on the '89+ cars is driven only in one direction but uses constant tension of a return spring to move it back or to shut it down.
It is more of a fail safe design. The earlier valve could stick and cause a high idle issue, as a symptom, let alone just stop working.
Both valves can suffer brush wear or more exactly commutator grooves that not only wear deep but deeper at one end than the other with some narrowing. This can cause some jamming or drag affect. I surmise this prompted the return spring idea let alone smut vapors.
These problems can start as early as 80k or more. It depends on materials inside and the number of times it has to do the idles and startups. This item is working almost all the time. Not more than the alternator and far more than a starter motor. Only its Back and Forth over the same half turn area, shifting the brushes within the play of their spring loaded holders.
That is how I came up with an estimate which is more like a wild guess! (:-)
The IACV may not be working at all and the throttle plate is holding a fixed idle air point that does not work well under a variable condition. Especially if it's intermittently failing while driving.
If it's sticking closed or plain closed it should not idle correctly enough if the throttle plate is to far open to compensate. What speed does it idle, anyway? Is it all the time or what?
It might help to gives us more details on how it is "vexing your wits."
Cleaning will only help the vane if it is cruddy.
If you remove it, check it with a "nine volt battery" for smoothness and reliable operation. I use a nine volt as this, to me, provides less current to simulate a computer operational limits through its transistors. A car battery can zap anything to life. The nine volt is a softer LIMTED touch, IMHO.
ART Benstein might tell me to use some "size" of resistor as he is technical that way!
So, does this car start and idle the same way as the other car of the same year car you own?
Has the fuel smell gone and again how is the mileage?
Phil
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Thank you for the response.
This intermittent problem is in "a-ok" mode right now.
"If it's sticking closed or plain closed it should not idle correctly enough if the throttle plate is to far open to compensate. What speed does it idle, anyway? Is it all the time or what?
"
The car idles fine. I do not have a tachometer, but I would guess that the idle speed is under 1200 rpm, possibly close to 800rpm. It is definitely not racing, or lugging.
"So, does this car start and idle the same way as the other car of the same year car you own? " Both cars start and run fine now (1989 240 mentioned above, 1986 240)
I have a 1989 240 parts car (not on the road) which also starts right up, but I only start that one every few weeks.
"Has the fuel smell gone and again how is the mileage?" The fuel smell was noticeable after cranking for twenty seconds or so, when the car was in the "no start" condition. The car starts and runs now, and no fuel smill.
The fuel mileage is the same as before this problem occurred, 23-25mpg city driving, 27-30mpg highway driving.
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Hey thanks for posting back. It's been quite sometime so I guess it's doing all right for you.
That was quite a bump you gave your post there, hitting it three times. I am glad I figured out this morning as to what happen.
At first thought I suffered a stroke or contracted and developed some new form of disfluency reading. Whew! (:-)
Yep, the car must be doing pretty good.
The mileage appears normal so it's not rich all the time. The idle RPM on LH cars is set by the computer and IACValve for 750 RPM.
For the most part or the practical application of the throttle plate, it will be closed off or should look that way.
If the stop screw is set correctly you only see the thinnest gap around the plate if you shined a light from behind it. You can suck a lot of through a small crack, just ask any log cabin owner. (:)
The bore in the throttle body is machined smooth and round and the plate is round but is to be held at such an angle as to not "jam" into the bore upon release of the throttle that is under spring pressure.
Only a tiny bit of space is all that is allowed so that all the idle air must go through the the IACV.
This very tiny extra allowance actually is a good thing to provide a flow for manifold pressure transition or reserve, to attenuate shudder, IMHO. It's like a back fill of volume or cushion.
This whole volume is to be on the lower end range of the flow that the IACV provides, so it does have the control and not the stop screw.
I suggested comparing the idle to other cars you have since you have no tachometer. If one car is an automatic you do not want the car to pull off if the car is on a very, very slight upgrade but will roll if the car would roll normally without power, as then, it should only move or creep.
The factory 750 rpm does have a +\- to a degree. Maybe, it's just a "slanted" degree for all tolerances errors one can make. Nothing is perfect in mass production, just look at the human race! The more is not always the merrier and lately, explainable.
Anyway, have a good morning or the whole day, wherever you get to have your day!
Phil
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Thank you for the response.
This intermittent problem is in "a-ok" mode right now.
"If it's sticking closed or plain closed it should not idle correctly enough if the throttle plate is to far open to compensate. What speed does it idle, anyway? Is it all the time or what?
"
The car idles fine. I do not have a tachometer, but I would guess that the idle speed is under 1200 rpm, possibly close to 800rpm. It is definitely not racing, or lugging.
"So, does this car start and idle the same way as the other car of the same year car you own? " Both cars start and run fine now (1989 240 mentioned above, 1986 240)
I have a 1989 240 parts car (not on the road) which also starts right up, but I only start that one every few weeks.
"Has the fuel smell gone and again how is the mileage?" The fuel smell was noticeable after cranking for twenty seconds or so, when the car was in the "no start" condition. The car starts and runs now, and no fuel smill.
The fuel mileage is the same as before this problem occurred, 23-25mpg city driving, 27-30mpg highway driving.
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Thank you for the response.
This intermittent problem is in "a-ok" mode right now.
"If it's sticking closed or plain closed it should not idle correctly enough if the throttle plate is to far open to compensate. What speed does it idle, anyway? Is it all the time or what?
"
The car idles fine. I do not have a tachometer, but I would guess that the idle speed is under 1200 rpm, possibly close to 800rpm. It is definitely not racing, or lugging.
"So, does this car start and idle the same way as the other car of the same year car you own? " Both cars start and run fine now (1989 240 mentioned above, 1986 240)
I have a 1989 240 parts car (not on the road) which also starts right up, but I only start that one every few weeks.
"Has the fuel smell gone and again how is the mileage?" The fuel smell was noticeable after cranking for twenty seconds or so, when the car was in the "no start" condition. The car starts and runs now, and no fuel smill.
The fuel mileage is the same as before this problem occurred, 23-25mpg city driving, 27-30mpg highway driving.
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Why not do it before it becomes a problem? Preventive maintenance!
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Update:
This problem is intermittent.
The car now starts, in sub-freezing temperature.
What kind of no-start problem is on again, off again?
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Hi again,
I would say you have a rich mixture problem or you are not holding your mouth in the proper shape when it doesn't start.
I suggest you look in the rear view mirror when it starts up in sub temps just to see if you are only gritting your teeth or being tight lipped about the whole affair when it happens. The cold air can cause the mouth not to droop or distort as much. (:-)(|)
Kidding aside, it's must be not be flooding the plugs with "vaporized fuel" AND since the air is colder, the air itself is more dense so the mixture "In Turn" is leaner when it's colder than it is when it's warmer and causing vapor action to occur.
The only variable looks to be the air to the fuel ratio, that is assuming and I hate that by the way, the Engines Coolant Temperature sensor is working correctly. We have no idea about that guy adding or taking away fuel or just pulsing the same amount in both cases.
It can be checked at a ECU pin for either Ohms or Voltage in some write ups.
Air temperature would make more sense in the overall picture with only the air temperature changing but it's another guess!
The air temperature should affect the battery performance some, but it starts up now. There is enough current and voltage left to provide spark in both starting conditions.
If we center in on the CPS it can be effected by temperature and cause the problems as Art has suggested. It is a known fact that the CPS can exhibit random and somewhat peculiar starting or running performances.
If the signals it produces, do not fall exactly in line with what the ECU expects to see, it fouls up the programming inside and it starts "guessing," as Art says we do, except it takes action right or wrong.
Wait, we do that too! Bad information seems to be a norm nowadays.
So my guess is a mixture change going on.
If you rule out the electronics involvement, you have to look at the intake manifold gasket going with temperature change. A snorkel tube behind the AMM has cracks with thermal change and there is always a throttle body adjustments. The switch working to tell the ECU its is to be in idle and start mode is required. Pumping the throttle is a no-no and if it starts it becomes a big clue fo me as to something is not correct.
(:-) of course I'm guessing!
Phil
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Hi Michael Kocher,
You reside in the gateway city with it's whoop-dee-freekin'-do baseball Cardinals and hockey Blues, eh?
Unfortunately, I also do reside here for a short while remaining, thankfully.
You have a host of excellent guidances in this thread, responding to your original post, to begin your diagnostic and remediation to solve the problem.
As it is a 1989 240, you have the OBD diagnostic test function. If your battery has kept a charge so the fuel injection and ignition still contain fault codes, why not try the OBD function?
From the FAQ, please see:
https://www.brickboard.com/FAQ/700-900/EngineOBDCodes.htm
For fuel injection and emissions:
https://www.brickboard.com/FAQ/700-900/EngineOBDCodes.htm#LH24FuelInjectionFault
LH 2.4 is your fault code column.
And see:
https://www.brickboard.com/FAQ/700-900/EngineOBDCodes.htm#EZK116IgnitionFaultCodes
EZK 116 is your fault code column.
Though the faulty running condition threshold to kick off an ECU OBD (on-board diagnostic) fault code is sort of forgiving for this early form on 1989+ 240s.
The OBD function may not report on intermittent faults even though such faults cause operating problems.
Your Uncle Art recommends a faulty crank position sensor (CPS). This board is full of description of what comprises a faulty CPS.
Uncle Phil (Machine Man) and your other respondents also give good guidance for items to check.
As you have a 1989 Volvo 240 in St. Louis, part of the fetid AmeriKan rust belt, and your 1989 Volvo 240 is rusty, such as rust and corroded bits in the engine bay, corrosion may be a problem at any electrically bonded interface along the engine control and power wire harnesses.
You also have help in a prior column you ask about OBD function and no-start condition.
https://www.brickboard.com/RWD/volvo/1636993/220/240/260/280/diagnostic_led_will_glow_button_pressed_talk_afterwards_240_code_codes_trouble_start_selfdiagnostic.html
What did you do about the slow coolant leak?
https://www.brickboard.com/RWD/volvo/1639986/220/240/260/280/video_looks_like_water_pump_probably_coolant_radiator_fluid_240_volvo_dl_engine_leak.html
As our Uncle Art states, we're trying to help you and want your 1989 Volvo 240 to keep on carrying on. Though we cannot use our collective remote-control telekinesis mind power to pick up and use that multimeter to help you.
If pressed, and you need in-person help, let me know here or by PM. I also reside in the fetid notion known as St. Louis, Misery.
Also, if it helps, Mike Wallace, Darren Crossey, and Tommy Martin, as the Irish Brigade, play at John D. McGurk's this month. Though none play fiddle. At least the bands there keep the fiddle bow strings well rosin-coated! Hopefully Briste returns to the states. If you enjoy Irish Traditional music.
Though 9° F now is sort of frosty out. Hot Buttered Rums, Hot Toddy's, or Irish Coffees afterward!?!?! They use the spicy John Powers whisky at McGurk's or, on request, the more malty Jameson.
I can meet you at your shop on Clayton Road though a garage would be swell.
And your 1989 240 has a manual transmission?
Do you use a Volvo literate mechanic?
https://www.brickboard.com/SHOPS/
Please advise.
Hope that helps.
MacDuffed.
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Thanks for the reply, I should have paid more attention to this thread. I thought the thread became inactive, but it was still going.
"As it is a 1989 240, you have the OBD diagnostic test function. If your battery has kept a charge so the fuel injection and ignition still contain fault codes, why not try the OBD function"
It reads 1-1-1. I thought there must have been a problem with the ICU, as at the beginning of this adventure, there was no OBD reading. Turns out, there were only dirty contacts on the OBD unit.
"What did you do about the slow coolant leak?"
I replaced the water pump, and upper and lower radiator hoses. Fun tangential project- I also replaced the radiator, as I tightened the hose clamp too tight, and the (maybe original) plastic connector on the radiator shattered. I was fortunate enough to find all the pieces.
"As our Uncle Art states, we're trying to help you and want your 1989 Volvo 240 to keep on carrying on. Though we cannot use our collective remote-control telekinesis mind power to pick up and use that multimeter to help you."
Thanks, and I'll try not to appear ungrateful.
"
If pressed, and you need in-person help, let me know here or by PM. I also reside in the fetid notion known as St. Louis, Misery. " Thanks.
And your 1989 240 has a manual transmission? Yes, it does. The manual transmission one is the one with the problem. My stay-at-home parts car, another 1989 240, has an automatic transmission.
Do you use a Volvo literate mechanic? - Not yet.
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No, no perception of ungrateful.
Though I can read as a grumpy bassturd.
We simply want to help you get your Volvo 240 running with the best results and the least cost.
Why I offer to visit your store and help you in person.
Though much longer and I'll be in CO-state. Packing now.
Hope that helps.
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Your call, but I would next check the sheath and wire condition of the CPS and the underhood 25 amp fuse and fuseholder as previously suggested. If either one is bad, it can cause intermittent starting and intermittent stalling. BTDT with the 25 amp fuse on my 1990 240 DL. A visual check on these is pretty easy and could save you both time and money.
From my earlier post:
" Since it is an intermittent problem I suggest also checking the underhood 25 amp blade fuse for the fuel injection/ignition. I had an intermittent starting problem with my 90 240 years ago. After struggling mightily to find it, I finally discovered it was a corroded fuse holder for the 25 amp fuse. Replaced the fuseholder, the 25 amp fuse and cleaned up the wiring. No more problems, good to go...:) "
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As Art suggested it might be the Crank Position Sensor. Look for worn/damaged wiring and wiring sheath. I don't know the specifics as I've never had to replace one but there is an electrical test you can do on the CPS. Try a search here for instructions.
Since it is an intermittent problem I suggest also checking the underhood 25 amp blade fuse for the fuel injection/ignition. I had an intermittent starting problem with my 90 240 years ago. After struggling mightily to find it, I finally discovered it was a corroded fuse holder for the 25 amp fuse. Replaced the fuseholder, the 25 amp fuse, cleaned up the wiring and I was good to go... If you haven't replaced that fuse and fuseholder I would check them ASAP before throwing any more parts at it...:)
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posted by
someone claiming to be tony
on
Mon Jan 2 22:47 CST 2017 [ RELATED]
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How old are the plugs?
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I replaced the ECU and ICU
Engine cranked, every 2nd or 3rd time, there would be a cough at the end of 5 or 10 seconds of cranking. Usually one ignition, sometimes two. Nothing robust.
I tried cranking it with the accelerator floored, and not.
I cleaned the contacts on the OBD, it now works. Both readings are 1-1-1
My 11 year old son asked to try stating it. It was a rough start, but it ran.
The engine is not responsive to the accelerator pedal. If I floor it from idle, it sputters, coughs, and then increases in rpm.
After idling for a few minutes, no error codes.
This is still a mystery!
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They are at least four years old, and 50,000 miles on them. Time for replacement, but unlikely the cause of this problem, as it will run fine one day, and not at all the next.
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Replace the CPS.
I say that, because it appears several of us have asked you questions and offered to help with diagnosis, but don't see any participation from you. I know from experience, behavior like that is solved by throwing parts at the problem as opposed to diagnostic procedures. Sooner or later one of us will guess the right part, so there's my guess.
240, 245, volvo, manual, start, no,spark, fuel, gasoline, 1989, exchange, cps
--
Art Benstein near Baltimore
Every calendar's days are numbered.
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"I say that, because it appears several of us have asked you questions and offered to help with diagnosis, but don't see any participation from you. I know from experience, behavior like that is solved by throwing parts at the problem as opposed to diagnostic procedures."
Thank you for the reply, and I don't mean to be dead weight on this board.
This problem is intermittent, and the car is functioning now, so there is not a lot of diagnostic stuff I can do today.
There are no error codes, that is, they are 1-1-1.
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Air fuel and spark.
How does your air cleaner look?
I had a '61 Mini that died on the highway - just after a foreign car specialist tuned it up!
I called my uncle, my car guru - he said - I'll send a REAL mechanic over - the diesel mechanic checked the air cleaner and found it clogged.
Since the cleaner had a small horn on it, he turned the horsehair element 90 degrees and the car started fine and needed no service for 6 months!
The air cleaner box in our '90 744 TI had foam rubber in its top, when the foam failed, it turned to powder and clogged the air cleaner in the same manner.
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Any OBD codes? If so, that could help narrow it down.
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If you have spark and you think that the engine is flooded, check to make sure the timing belt hasn't snapped. Take off the oil cap and look at the cam shaft while someone cranks the engine. Should see the cam turning.
Once verified that the cam is turning, rotate the engine till cylinder 1 is at top dead center (there is markings for this on the harmonic balancer and the cam cover). Once at TDC, pop the distributer cap off and verify that the rotor is pointing to cylinder 1 or 4.
If all that checks out, then re-verify your spark as machine man suggested.
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Your car may still have a cold start injector underneath the intake manifold on that year.
You could always disconnect it.
If it smelling from underneath the hood or from the tailpipe ... that's got to be a lot of gasoline not vaporizing in the right place. I believe it's called "raw fuel."
You will need to pull the plugs and spin the engine to vacate the cylinders. This will help in the next go-round of cranking to start.
Before you put them back in bundle them together tightly with the wires attached. Ground them on the engine someplace. When you roll the engine to fire them, see if they are all sparking nicely in a rhythm. This checks the rotor and the caps integrity in case you need a tune up.
In extreme cases, excess fuel is washing down the cylinders walls and diluting the oil in the pan.
If the oil starts smelling of gas from the dip stick I would change the oil as soon as you find the problem.
If your car does not have the cold start injector, you could have a bad Engine Coolant Tempature sensor or a disconnected one. It talks to the ECU to set mixture and is under the third cylinder intake runner. The ECU might think the engine is in Alaska someplace.
I'm suspicious that you are not saying that the engine is popping or producing short spins of running.
The timing could be way off if the timing belt is in bad shape or has jumped.
How long since its had a good massage of maintenance?
Phil
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Just in case, when you checked for spark did you also check for fuel at the plug? I do realize you probably have fuel based on the smelly tailpipe.
Sounds like it is flooding for some reason. First, I'd try flooring it when starting. If a fuel injected engine is flooded, the recommended cure is to floor it when starting and hold the accelerator down for awhile.
Also try pulling the hose off the fuel pressure regulator and check for fuel inside. If so, the FPR is bad.
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