posted by
someone claiming to be muggy
on
Sat Jan 21 23:22 CST 2017 [ RELATED]
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1993 240 volvo Battery was dead but new fresh battery has been installed.The alternator is fairly new as it was just recently replaced. The car was running fine. Husband flashed his lights at someone and it started running rough on him. Now we can't get it started. It is flooding out or idles super rough and dies if we do get it started. Any great ideas? He's going to check the obvious, plugs, flame trap etc tomorrow but what else can he check? We ran the code test on it and it says no faults.. 1-1-1 Any fuses or relays we should check on?
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The 1993 model year saw two different configurations for the electrical system. The early cars had no fuses under the hood; the late production cars have them.
Which type is your car?
http://cleanflametrap.com/emfuse.html
--
Art Benstein near Baltimore
The professor discovered that her theory of earthquakes was on shaky ground.
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posted by
someone claiming to be muggy
on
Wed Jan 25 16:51 CST 2017 [ RELATED]
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We have the fuses under the hood. Because we have another 93 240 that is identical we've been swapping out parts. All fuses are good crank shaft sensor was replaced last year. New alternator a month ago. Battery has been tested and charged.Cap and rotor replaced, air mass meter swapped out..ignition module swapped out, coil swapped out none of the above make a difference. Also bought and changed the relay under the glove box.( big white one ) It starts runs super rough for about 5 seconds and dies. No codes in either #2 0r #6 pull.
Husband drove it home and it was fine no issues. Filled tank on way home. Parked it and now it won't start. I would think if it was the coolant sensor it would pull codes.
Need ideas!!!!
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Hi again,
Just wondering have you running the fuel pumps full time by jumping the right side of the fuses of 4&6 in the door panel.
There are several reasons to go this route.
The fuel rail would be filled and stay filled, if for some reason they are shutting down.
With the FPR pressurized it might leak out the vacuum hose more readily.
With the engine running you can remove the vacuum hose to see if the mixture changes as little as it should run a tiny bit richer, like under an acceleration mode.
I have never check that out but I have read where Art squeezes the tank return line, so who knows where a clue may lurk?
Phil
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"...by jumping the right side of the fuses of 4&6 in the door panel."
Having established the OP has the late '93, that procedure needs a bit of change. Details are:
from http://cleanflametrap.com/transferPump.htm
--
Art Benstein near Baltimore
What's the fastest liquid on earth? Milk, because it's pasteurized before you see it.
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Thanks Art!
As you can tell I did not know that either .... Actually you don't have to tell, as it appears, I open my keyboard and do it all the time. (:-) devil is in the details.
I liked the milk note you have at the bottom, cute!
Phil
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posted by
someone claiming to be muggy
on
Fri Jan 27 19:34 CST 2017 [ RELATED]
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Ok the latest..... This morning we went out to try and start the car. It started right up and died after chugging for a little bit. We then had to push the car over onto a paved area so we could get it jacked up. My husband changed out the fuel filter. Both pumps activate when we turn the key into the on position. Fuel filter is brand new. ( boy was it dirty )...... then we had a battery issue of totally dead battery so went and replaced the battery. NOTE The original battery that was in the car when it didn't start the first time was bad so we used one that had been sitting awhile had it charged but its no good either. SO>>>>>>>>>>> brand new battery, brand new fuel filter. The car will start but chugs itself out. Tomorrow we will be pulling all the spark plugs and cleaning and the injectors. We're thinking that the lights being flashed may have caused an electrical surge with the bad battery thus causing the fuel filter to clog up ( as car chugs better then it did ) and now the injectors are fouled? Give me more ideas guys!
Bottom line : Car starts it chugs along for a few seconds then dies.
We have borrowed parts from a car that we know runs. It is not the fuel pressure regulator, air mass meter, fuel filter or fuel pump under the car, cap and rotor we replaced yesterday, brand new fuel ignition relay ( the white one that is under the glove box ) All fuses look good no broken fuses.
Initially husband was driving down the hwy he flashed his lights at someone the car quit but came back as he turned the lights back on so very quick loss of power. ( at this point he had that bad battery in the car ) He then continued driving it for another 30 miles, went to daughters house, jumped in started right up and drove a good 40 miles back home in the dark so the headlights were on with no issues. Somewhere either on the way in or out he got gas but he can't remember. The following morning the car started its I don't want to keep running issue.
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Troubleshooting over the internet usually leads to more questions:
When the car dies will it immediately restart and run for a few more seconds ?
Will the car take any throttle once it starts ? Does it act differently if you hold the throttle pedal to the floor before you try to restart it ?
If you pull a couple spark plugs right after it dies, do they smell like unburnt fuel ?
Is there a fuel pressure test point on the fuel rail ? My '92 has one between the first and second injectors. O'Reilly Auto Part will rent you a fuel pressure gauge (with a bunch of adapters) for a few bucks.
Hook up a fuel pressure gauge (be careful about fuel spray) and see what it says when you turn the key before you start the engine, when it starts, after it dies, after the key is turned off.
The fuel pressure should be 43 psi when it is running with the vacuum line to the fuel pressure regulator disconnected and plugged. Reconnecting the line should drop the pressure by 9 psi. 20 minutes after the key is turned off the pressure should be 15 psi. So sayeth Bentley.
If that all checks out, have you checked the accordion tube between the air filter and the throttle body for cracks or wear ? Is your air filter box full of mouse nests ?
If that all checks out, I'd still be curious to see what happens to your electrical system voltage as the car starts and tries to run. A dead battery is not necessarily a bad battery.
If you don't have a voltmeter, they are very handy and a decent one is only $30 or so. Digital is the easiest to use, just don't by a $10 cheapie.
Greg
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Hey, Good job you took some the notes for them and shared!
Phil
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You know what they say, If you can't fly with the big birds, stay on the perch.
Greg
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posted by
someone claiming to be muggy
on
Sat Jan 28 23:51 CST 2017 [ RELATED]
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Heck we conquered! It was #1 bad battery, #2 very clogged up fuel filter,#3 are you guys ready for this? Idle air control valve........ woot not codes showed but we conquered this baby. It's now running smooth and very happy. It kind of got a tune up along the way with all the hoses being checked, plugs getting cleaned, etc. Thank you so much for all the tips. The Hawk hunt and everything. Next we will conquer the white wagon ( #2 1993 Volvo ).......... in the midst of a new clutch on that one and other new goodies to make it fun again.
Oh one quick question for you wonderful people.Are there sensors for the abs system that need cleaning and how do you do it?
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Late to the game but I thinking it may not be related to hitting the Highbeams. I would have looked and maybe you should look at the Fuel Regulator. You worked your way thru everything else, why not give that a quick look. It's running good but a simple pulling off of that front gas line will insure you are good in the Fuel Regulation area.
--
'75 Jeep CJ5 345Hp ChevyPwrd, two motorcycles, '85 Pickup: The '89 Volvo is the newest vehicle I own. it wasn't Volvos safety , it was Longevity that sold me http://home.lyse.net/brox/TonyPage4.html http://cleanflametrap.com/tony/
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Good to hear !
As far as your last question:
Are there sensors for the abs system - yes
that need cleaning - not usually
and how do you do it - gently brush them off when you replace the front rotors.
Greg
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If the the ABS sensors are very rusty you might need to resort to more extensive cleaning measures.
Your clue: Usually the ABS light will come on when the sensors are very rusty...:)
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Hello, glad to know you are still out there and keeping us posted.
I need to ask how long has the car been sitting before trying to revive it? It appears it was at least long enough for at least one battery to go bad. Bad batteries raise havoc with computer systems too!
If the car has sit for more than three months the gas starts to go stale but not necessarily bad. This is subject to environmental changes. Barometric pressures push air in and out of a tank or container. Temperature changes double down with gasoline vapors.
If the quantity of gasoline left was very low, the more the gasoline is exposed to air above it. Consequently the more it will oxide away, leaving a gummy substance behind.
The good news in all of this, is the fuel tank got filled and it may reconstitute the old stuff back into a liquid but that junk will be a lower octane value.
When you said the filter was very dirty are you meaning gelled inside as if you cut it open or was it just dirty on the exterior with grime?
The likelihood that the injectors have clogged screens is unlikely to happen in all four injectors. Gel can form inside but there is not much air in the lines to cause a great quantity of it in short periods of time.
If one has varnish on a pintel it could cause a real slow fuel rail pressure leak down but more likely a spray pattern problem. Rough idle but not shutting down. It breaks down to recognizing symptoms in sequences.
Again check the cylinders or plugs for excess gasoline before a first start and plug burning stories.
If any of the above has happen the main fuel pumps check valve may have trash in it. This would cause insufficient fuel amount or no rest pressure overnight. It takes a lot of cranking to get things caught up or refilled when the rail gets STARVED. The engine has to keep turning to keep pumps running.
Just turning the key and hearing the pumps run, on the ECU time out is not conclusive.
This is why I suggested keeping the pumps running while checking and running the engine functions. Fuses 4&7 are the ones. I just learned this from Art on a late production '93's.
It would be nice to know if the rail in filled with some amount of pressure for a half an hour after shut down.
Letting the pumps circulate the gas through the system will help clear lines up but you better have a good battery in the car. With them running it's like leaving a fan running or even headlights on.
Do you have any idea how old the pumps are or if the main pump is really loud? A moderate hum or low whine and almost not noticeable is considered normal.
That's about all the ideas I can think of right now. Just mull these around while you are testing. Take notes on what it does and when will help a lot when posting.
Phil
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posted by
someone claiming to be muggy
on
Sat Jan 28 12:12 CST 2017 [ RELATED]
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The car never sat..... it's used on a weekly basis. Not every day but always is being driven. We had a cold snap that I think drained the old battery in it. The other battery was sitting and not being used but was a new battery ment to go in the wagon we are replacing a clutch in. Anyway new battery in and onward we go. Will keep you posted with what we find today.
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Hi there,
I have been looking over the posts as they have come in. You have gotten some of the best buzzards sniffing around with you on your dead car. Most of these buzzards have nice long gray feathers of experience and will keep circling lower and lower until YOU find the problem.
Short of using Face Time and phones, it's the best we can do. Sorry!
There is one thing about working on these cars, is that, there can be several little animals in the area that will lie still as if they are dead while hiding and will only move if they can get away with it, i.e. Intermittents
A buzzard will only land if it's pretty sure the animal is dead with stink rising. It is as close as he can work but for a hawk it goes in for a kill.
A few of our posters are hawks, especially when working on familiar hunting lands i.e, their own cars. They have gotten in there and have torn their cars apart from head to tail. Some are Proud Hunters and will provide pictures as proof on here.
That said, your car is "open territory" as we do not know the maintenance condition of your car.
These posts seem to be "floating around" more so about fuel pressure/ delivery issues than the electrical portion of the computer stuff within the fuel management system. Luckily youhave been able to exchange parts with the other car, so on the cheap, that is a great help.
You have not changed over the FRP and that little animal can do a "wiggle in the weeds" just like a "old" fuel pump or power connections to the pumps. The main pump is exposed to lots of grime under the car and I have found them to come loose internally.
I am still trying to keep "turning on the headlights" as a current draw that dropped the systems voltage across a bad connection. It is something that you appear to firmly believe in and started the issue. I tend to be a buzzard and will sniff around checking the cleanliness fuses as they are very good possible "bad connectors." It is a beginning point if the added load caused an issue. I like listening to owners as most of time they know their car sounds have different moments. No one knows after its gone south or dies randomly that the one instance could have been a clue.
I ask myself questions in relation to sequences of what I expect the car to do. Like when I start the engine I expect it to race up and back down to idle every time. If not maybe the IAC is sticky or not working as in bad!
A little more detail on how you know it is flooding and not just running out of gas from the fuel rail would be very helpful.
1) Do you hear the main pump each and every time you turn the key completely OFF and back to position?
2) The ECU will run the pump for about one second to pre-pressurize the fuel rail. This will provide barely 5 seconds of run time if you are losing rest pressure over night. Does it only do something after you crank it again or ONLY after a total turn off with the key switch.
3) When you crank an engine that means it turns over. You then have to ASK does it ever hit or just stay dead? If it does hit, does it run a very wee bit or just pop once in awhile? Is it only some fuel or too much when? Could it be bad spark with lingeringfuel or a jumped or broken timing belt?
Now that's a scurry of varmits all at once. If you have those, you got to pay real attention and take notes for a break in sequence. Call it, Stop using a shotgun and get more intimate with a pistol and dig through the wood pile.
You said you filled the gas tank and restarted the car at the station as you drove it home. It was later it suffered a no start! That's "A" clue for a "morning sickness" called a leak down NORTH of the fuel pumps. Besides for an occasional pump check valve or one the (4) injectors the FPR is a PRIME suspect for the lack of holding prime because its job is to dump excess fuel. Defining excess and when is always a lovely challenge! R&R with a "known good" one is easier. Just like with fuel/pump system relay.
Remember a buzzard circle and sniffs a lot but a Hawk, will always know which way North is by using the sun and shadows, (:-) of course, If you work on your car at night, you better think like and owl! (:-)
Have you ever pulled at least one spark plug to confirm wet plugs or if it's not sparking the plugs. That might lead you to think in terms lean or the same result with flooding with no burn. Someone suggested checking for spark already and we know it can run so one might pass that one by. Ignition still should always be a first suspect especially a rotor button in the middle.
If the plugs are very dry, the story they can tell, changes everything.
Ok, take notes and share any questions about them.
We all are a "brood" and just hanging out to help nurture a 240 back to health.
Yes! I'm as twisted as my replies! (:-)
Phil
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Check those fuses on the battery for signs of overheating. Swapping won't prove one way or another, but just pulling out and putting back in may temporarily clean up a poor connection. If you look at that link I sent in my last response, you'll see how this can occur and wipe the codes clean.
If you're certain the trouble isn't electrical, I'd suggest revisiting the fuel pressure regulator based on your response about moisture in the vacuum line -- your description doesn't mollify me any more than it did Greg.
--
Art Benstein near Baltimore
Dijon vu: the same mustard as before.
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Check to see if spark is to all 4 plugs. The engine will run on 3 cylinders but on 2 it will be very rough. I don't know if codes would be set.
--
1980 245 Canadian B21A with SU carb, M46 trans, 3:31 dif, in Brampton, Ont.
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When it doesn't start are you getting spark at the spark plugs? Did you pull one to check? Spark plug wires are a possibility. Don't think bad ones will throw a code in the OBD 1 system. Test them. Have you done the arcing test? If it isn't the wires then start working backwards in the ignition system. It is possible, although highly unlikely it is the distributor itself, but check the dizzy cap and rotor's condition. Then move further back to the ignition coil and power stage.
Do you have a multimeter?
I'd look at related electronics too. Have you checked the condition of the wiring and sheath at the CPS (crank position sensor)? Has the CPS ever been replaced?
Based on what we know so far I'd say coolant temp sensor is a possibility too if it only happens when cold. If it happens in warmer conditions it is more likely electrical. 240's are known for their electrical problems.
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posted by
someone claiming to be muggy
on
Sun Jan 22 13:19 CST 2017 [ RELATED]
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Both battery and alternator are brand new and in excellent condition. It's something other then the alternator or battery causing this.
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Yes but... You stated the the problem started after the high beams were flashed, i.e. an electrical event. Seems to make sense to look for electrical causes... If you don't check the voltage of the system, you are trying to fix a problem you can't identify.
There are both bad alternator and bad batteries that are brand new and rebuilts are iffy at best. While it is possible that you have a new unrelated problem, chances are that it is the same old problem that has not been fixed.
If it is actually flooding out, pull the vacuum hose off the fuel pressure regulator and see if there is liquid fuel in the line. If there is, you need a new fuel pressure regulator.
Greg
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Plus on checking for fuel in the vacuum line from FPR to intake plenum. '88 200, on start up and worse when warm almost impossible to start and eventually simply would not run. Stinky gas rich smell from exhaust. Shot FPR. It was dumping unmeasured gas right into intake.
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posted by
someone claiming to be muggy
on
Tue Jan 24 21:55 CST 2017 [ RELATED]
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ok. all wiring was checked it all looks good. Ran the codes again in both #2 and #6 1-1-1 so no codes popping up. We've checked all vacuum hoses,We checked the vaccum hose for the fuel pressure regulator and it was a little damp but no liquid in the line. It's been super cold and this did happen one time about a month ago when it was cold it ran super rough on me then smoothed out when first started. I'm wondering if the cold has something to do with it. Could this be the coolant temperature sensor? Or possibly a relay? It will still start but run rough and die.
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If the dampness in the vacuum line to the fuel pressure regulator vacuum line smells like fuel, you need a new fuel pressure regulator.
How cold was it ? Below 0°F ? It is possible temperature sender for the engine (not the gauge, there are two)is going out of spec at low temps although that should set a code. The sensor is located under the #3 intake runner. At 14°F it should read 8200-10500Ω. At 68°F it should be 2200-2700Ω. 176° 290-364Ω.
When it is cold again try the following starting procedure -
Crank it until it pops once.
Press the accelerator to the floor and hold it.
Crank it until it fires and runs (but not so long you burn up the starter or kill the battery).
Ones it starts to run on its own ease off the throttle (the cold oil is not going anywhere too fast) so it runs at about the normal fast idle speed until it smooths out.
Greg
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I agree with riverbend on the fuel pressure regulator (FPR). Especially if the rough running clears up after half a minute to a minute, or so.
The FPR on my 1992 245 steadily deteriorated to the point where it would start perfectly fine every time. It wasn't until a month or three ago that the cold start was followed by rough running just seconds after the start, and it would clear up after about half a minute. The exhaust gases looked and smelled like an overly rich mixture while running rough.
The usual DIY checks on the FPR (smelling the vacuum side and checking the returned volume with a hose in a bucket) didn't reveal anything. Only very very occasionally, the OBD would throw a fuel mix error code during driving.
After some thinking and looking at how the ECU decides what the best fuel mix is (cold and warm), I decided the FPR was the most likely candidate for my problems, and it indeed turned out to be the culprit.
Hope this info may help. Even without the usual signs, the FPR may not be operating correctly anymore.
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Yes, test the voltage of the battery and alternator. Even though they are new it is possible one is defective.
What's the condition of the battery cables? I would also check the condition of the battery and alternator wiring. Look for loose connections and deteriorated wiring. On that note, cleaning the battery and engine grounds are a good idea if you have never done it before.
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Start with measuring the battery voltage, see that the cable clamps are tight and in good shape, and see what the alternator is putting out.
Greg
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