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Overcharged the a/c? 700 1992

I'm pretty sure the answer is yes. 1992 740, converted to 134a a long time ago. New receiver/dryer, variable orifice tube, and a junkyard seikio-seki compressor.

System evacuated, re oiled and charged with, according to the table in the faq, 950 grams of 134a. My math says I put in 930, but there were variables to how I had the can sitting on the scale when hooked up.

I did it when it was around 75 out. Vent temp got into the lower 40s, running pressure was around 30 psi. Compressor would rarely cycle. All seemed good.

The car has the two speed high/low fan mounted behind the radiator, high speed triggered by the radiator switch, low speed by the condensor high pressure switch.

Yesterday was in the mid 90's. It wasn't cooling that well. I also have a voltmeter mounted in the car and can tell based on the voltage drop whether the high or low fan has kicked on.

I was driving on the highway, 55-60 mph and had the following symptoms.

Compressor cycling on and off very fast, about 3 seconds on, 3 off. This could be felt with the gas pedal in a steady position and feeling the drag on the engine start and stop.

Low speed fan on all the time, even at highway speeds. When first charging it I verified its operation as normal at 0 mph.

This whole thing tells me that the pressures were high enough that the compressor was cycling on and off with the overpressure safety switch, the violet one I believe. It was also high enough never to trigger the low speed fan to kick off, even though I was moving at highway speeds. As a test I turned the ac off while driving and noticed the low speed fan turn off about 10 seconds afterwards.

My question - what to do? Even if my scale use wasn't perfect, I don't think I could have been off by more than 15 grams of charge. I did read in the faq that in hot weather its sometimes better to be undercharged so that pressures are closer to normal during operation. Is bleeding some off the way to go? Take it to a shop and have them pull it all out and put it right back in? If so, to what weight? 950, 925, 800?

Thanks, and sorry for the long post

Alex








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    Could be stuck/jammed variable OT 700 1992

    Hi Alex,

    From the symptoms you've described I guess you might have a stuck/jammed variable orifice tube. Yes this is just a guess because you haven't provided any AC pressure to confirm with.

    Is the aluminium tube/pipe after the orifice tube frozen? Anyway this icing condition could be difficult to see if the orifice tube was installed at the evaporator's inlet instead of the usual place along the inner fender (for earlier years 740/940 the OT was commonly installed at evaporator's inlet pipe).

    And I don't think your violet pressostat (VP) was activated. If it was it would take a good 10mins to 1/2 hour for it (VP) to stay ON (this means to OFF the compressor). Your rapid compressor cycling (turning on/off) is probably due to quick drop in refrigerant pressure at the low pressostat (at accumulator) due to stuck variable OT. This could be seen when an AC manifold gauge is connected.

    Connect AC gauges to the low pressure port near the accumulator and take reading while AC is OFF. If you have full charge the initial reading would be high. Then switch ON the AC and see if there is rapid drop in refrigerant pressure until below the threshold pressure of the low pressostat (which is below 29 PSI) when it would turn the compressor OFF. And this happens repeatedly.

    Variable OT has been known to cause problem despite its benefits. I had installed a few last time in my car. When it worked the cooling performance was still the best. But every time it jammed I replaced it with a new one thinking it was manufacturing defect. In the end I put back the standard OT for peace of mind.

    Regards,
    Amarin.








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      Could be stuck/jammed variable OT 700 1992

      Amarin, you might be on to something. It was only 80 yesterday, but static low side pressure was 100, while running at idle it dropped to 30. Increasing the rpms to 1500 dropped it to 25 but the compressor stayed on. Maybe my pressostat or gauge is slightly off. If the orifice tube was blocked as you say, would that explain the high pressure in front of it triggering the low speed fan as well as the rapid cycling you also attributed to it?

      Many thanks
      Alex








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        Could be stuck/jammed variable OT 700 1992

        Yes that initial 100psi pressure at 80F shows you still have full system charge. Mine is 110psi at 90F because I live in the tropics. And my charge weight was 950gm.

        If you refer to Smart VOV install guide (I guess you're using this as this is the most commonly available VOV in the market) it is recommended to charge 90% of the usual R12 charge weight. Old charge weight for 740/940 using R12 is 1100gm. So that means 990gm for the R134a charge. What I'm getting at is that to use VOV you may charge a little bit more than the standard weight because VOV fitted AC tend to run at very low suction pressure (and this overcharging is to compensate for that). This very low suction pressure is what makes the AC very cold.

        See smart VOV install guide:
        http://www.aircondition.com/vov/install.htm


        After seeing your AC pressures it seems now you have few choices:
        1. Add more R134a (another 40gm) so that the low side pressure is able to stay above 29psi and not trigger the low pressostat to OFF the compressor. This recent incident of rapid cycling may be due to normal refrigerant loss over the years. In short top up the AC a little bit more. If rapid compressor cycling STILL happens after topping up then it is CONFIRMED that you have an intermittently stuck VOV.
        2. Install a new VOV. This if you really need the performance gain that VOV provides.
        3. Put back standard OT.

        Regarding your low pressostat not triggering OFF the compressor at below 29psi, leave that be for the time being. As you've said your gauges may be a little bit inaccurate.

        My VOV did something more last time. There was occasional "farting-like" noise when the compressor kicked-in. I guess there might be some local turbulence during the initial refrigerant flow. It was these intermittent issues that had me decided to put back the standard OT albeit some performance loss.

        Hope these help,
        Amarin.








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          Could be stuck/jammed variable OT 700 1992

          Hi,

          Just in here observing what is being said and I agree with you on not be putting in any more refrigerant into it unless it's absolutely necessary.
          Especially, if you turn on the A/C and the condenser fans instantly kicks on and stays on as the refrigerant maybe stacking up in the high side.

          Wide temperature swings and driving speeds can drive one crazy trying to "Dial" in the proper charge.
          It sounds like it's very close and 28 to 40 grams moves the "capacity" or "capability to cool" around a lot!
          A stuck or partially plugged orfice could be causing all of this. It can starve the evaporator and push the high side up and overcharging will just confuse things worse.

          Here is a You Tube for A/C for house use with a R-22 example but it will help give you an idea of what happens with temperature change on the flooding of an evaporator. It's at the end things can go bad with slugging.
          https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=AR3xe-VorMw
          With capillary or orfice style systems you are using a "compromise" that "cost savings" does not always raise up a red flag too other issues.

          We think these cars have better A/C but it's really only slightly bigger for R12, but a "have to do" for R134 to work decently ahead. Shame they went cheap on us thermostatically.

          If You need to get accurate weight readings when charging. The best device to use is a cylindrical charging station that shows the liquid inside the vessel with a scale on the outside. It takes away the weight of hoses and any liquid in the hoses can be milked right back towards and into the charging cylinder.
          These were used years ago before digital scales to charge domestic refrigerators. This is where a few tenths of an ounce is critical for proper operation in different parts of the world. They are sold locality specific due to large temperature fluctuations. If you ever move from Maylasia to a colder climate or vice versa, leave your fridge as it won't work right due to its charge and capillary tube.

          When it comes to A/C, it's humidity that has to be calculated into the heat loading.
          With newer high efficiency units, the location of the appliances is even more crucial. They now void warranties, if you shove them into hot garages, small unventilated rooms or outside on a back porch during a winter.

          The next best thing is to put gauges everywhere in the car. Not just pressure gauges but temperature gauges to find what the coils are doing.
          An Infrared meter might work on metallic parts of high side lines and for sure the low side to measure for super heat under stabilized cabin temperatures.
          The evaporator needs to be flooded as much as possible up to the accumulator inlet and then show "superheating" in there and out going back to the compressor to prevent slugging.

          The condenser need to show some cooling from the bottom of the condenser and amount of sub-cooling in the area ahead of the orifice. This will gage that high side is to be full up to the device but not too full.

          The same thing is done for all other expansion devices but for a fixed capillary and orifices the charge sets the whole tone! No moving sensing tubes or adjustment. You work with what you got.

          Now a variable orifice, is just what it is, another variable to deal with! It recalibrates to the variable heat load and that can affect the charge pressure ratios!
          Best to be in a laboratory of under controlled conditions if you want to get that one caught right on target because it's going to keep moving. That is, until it gets stuck with trash, wear or whatever. Very delicate when compared to a TXV's as some are those are serviceable.

          Luckily, on cars it is a high temperature application and not for food preservation!
          Shooting for 35 to 40 degree vents is really overkill for sweat removal.
          IMPO.

          Phil










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      Could be stuck/jammed variable OT 700 1992

      I did pop the hood and look, didn't notice any frost on the pipes. My orifice tube is down on the frame rail, so I will keep an eye out for what you described. I'll also take a look at system pressures on a particularly hot day and report back. Thanks for your help







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