Recap of my story so far, in chronologic order:

I have a white, nice running 1985 244 sedan purchased for $450. The car is zippy, good power. My favorite for a daily 30 mile commute.

I notice that power seems reduced. Sluggish acceleration. Can still manage to attain freeway speeds.

Then, car won't start. Cranks well, but no cough. Fuel pumps working. Spark at plugs. No fuel injector pulses when cranking. When ignition is switched to KP-2, fuel relay isn't operating (no internal clicks). At KP-2, no power to orange wire at Air Mass Meter.

Checked and cleaned (with Deoxit) 25 amp fender fuse and wires. Cleaned and reinstalled fuse box and connections. Cleaned terminals and harness connections --ICU, ECU, grey connector on firewall, ignition switch, etc.

Installed a used ECU. Fuel relay begins clicking on KP-2 again. Car now starts after lots of cranking, but it won't idle and dies frequently. On a test drive, the vehicle operates only at low speed with stalling imminent.

Installed a used ICU. No change.

Now in the process of checking if the timing belt skipped teeth on the sprockets. Can't get the lower timing cover off yet -- waiting to recieve a 24mm socket to remove the crank pulley.

When I get the cover off I will check all three pulley marks for alignment, then install a new timing belt, belt tensioner, fuel pump, cam and crankcase seals, and four replacement belts.

Here is a photo of the upper timing belt cover removed. With the camshaft timing mark aligned at TDC on cylinder #1, I can't see a timing mark anywhere near the crank pulley/timing degree scale. Is this significant?

Hi,

When I posted to you to check the timing of the sprockets, I was just wanting to “observe” the relative positions of each.
You can use the zero mark on the plastic cover to locate the crankshaft and the number one wire position for spark. The camshaft sprocket has a dimpled dot, you can feel for or use a mirror to see on the front edge. This dot is under the tooth that “Has Too” relate to the notch or ridge you see right up on top of the head area In the plastic.

Since then, I have read that you are going to do the whole front seal job. Good idea!

Did you find the timing belt oily?
Was the belt, I assume not so pristine?
Is this your first Time replacing a timing belt?
There are some good tutorials out there and all kinds of photographs.
I see other posters helping you there.

The question you ask about the crankshaft timing mark is really a casting ridge that they are calling the mark. It looks more like a strengthening rib on the back wall behind the sprocket. It's located a little to the left of top center of the sprocket. You want it to point to the bottom of a tooth above the crankshafts own keyway.

You really want to see this reference mark when you go to putting the sprocket back on. The sprocket is actually keyed to the crankshaft and that keyway aligns itself to the mark when turned.
It's rotational position is the beginning of raising two Pistons up and the other two Pistons down.
When the keyway is up, the front number one pistons and four is always up.
Until you time in the camshaft into its notch, the pistons don't know compression from an exhaust stroke!
Same goes for the camshaft. When the dot on the sprocket aligns to the mark, the very front valves are always closed. One rotation will always bring those lobes back up off the valve stems.

A word of caution about the crankshaft sprocket!
Because it is made from a sintered metal process, it will not tolerate any strain from directions opposite of its grain structure. All these sprockets are not made from billet material starting someplace before the nineties. This might include your car as well.

There are belt guiding shields sandwiching the sprocket must sit flat before bolting on the belt pulley.
Be watchful to note the raised up key on the front of the sprocket.
Don't try to put it on backwards.
Make sure the guide with the largest notch goes on the front and engages the sprocket face key. Same for the harmonic balancer or belt pulley.
Don’t let either of those parts get caught on top the key when it all get bolted together. The amount of torque that gets applied to these components will shatter the crankshaft sprocket.

You are doing good getting all the information up front.
I see promise that this will turn out well for you and becoming better mechanically inclined.

As far as My writing, it will always need polishing!

Phil

I truly appreciate your interest and support. To answer your questions:

I did not find the timing belt oily.

The belt condition was ok, not fresh, but not cracked or with any other obvious defects.

I did replace a timing belt decades ago. I remember some of the procedures. As you say, there is a lot of information available. I'm lucky to have that.

Thanks for sharing the insider tips. Good directions and inside knowledge are gold. I put a picture of my engine and the exposed belt and pulleys just below these words, but I guess it will be deleted when I look at this post later.

Another attempt to show pictures of my #1 cam lobes (one horizontal and one up 45 degrees) and partially exposed timing belt at TDC on cylinder #1. When the car was running very badly, shaking and idling too low, I heard squeaking. I assumed it was my old water pump. Now I think it was the crank pulley rubber slipping, which would explain why I see no timing mark anywhere near the timing mark scale when the cam mark is aligned at TDC on cyl. #1. When I am able to remove the crank pulley this weekend I will know for sure.

Hi,

I see the pictures this time.
The belt looks nice and dry but you are right it's been in there awhile. Interesting that the reference marks are still on the backside. I have seen them completely gone on my belts when they are 60,000 miles old.
The tensioner is like new and belt seems tight enough from where I'm looking.
Until you can get the marks together you don't know if anything has happened.
Can you sneak in a view of the distributors rotor button?

The camshaft mark looks to be near enough to the top but might be off a tiny bit in relation to what I can see of the protruding plastic bump under the lip on the rear cover.
It is probably parallax playing its game with the eye balls! You got to look down the tooth like a rifle gun sights. The glove box mirror works wonders, if you are not a dentist! (:-)
The lobes, but I can see only one, should be seen like a dogs ears when it thinks it's being scolded. Up and outwards but in opposing directions.
This means the under sides are not pushing on the bucket shims.

CB has it right to tell you to put a blob of white in the crankshaft pulley's Tiny sliced-in notch as it shows up well in the pictures. The camshaft sprocket white is nice.
I also wanted to say that a 15/16" socket will fit the crankshaft. It's .937 equal .944 for mm.
In a pinch you use what will work, despite the technicalities or you won't be working!
Probably the same socket with a tolerance +/- overlay during manufacturing and get stamped according later. Quite a few of the two different tools overlap each other in size for being so close.

I see you have lots of room in front. The fan is off but the clutch is still there.
Do you also have the radiator out? If not, I guess the fan shroud still comes out that way?
I remove the fan and the clutch as an assembly by unbolting the four nuts in front of the water pump pulley.
My point is, "there maybe" a bolt for the front cover, behind that pulley?
Look at videos for a bolt behind there.
Videos are so tidy and miss leading sometimes. They do make it look like it's all a straight forward, walk-in the park, flat out easy job.

You'll find out soon enough, say Sunday, eh?

Phil

It's been a while! I do not have the radiator out, but the fan shroud did come out. I got the fan clutch unbolted. When the 22mm socket arrived I was able to remove the crank pulley and lower timing cover. I saw no sign of oil leaking our of any of the seals. The tensioner looked fine and the belt was in good shape.

The #1 cylinder cam lobes are not pushing on the bucket shims. The rotor is pointing the right way.

I put white paint on all the timing marks, including the crankshaft pulley washer's sliced-in notch and extended a white line on the front of the pulley where the timing mark is.

It seems the timing was actually ok. No sheared key on the crank sprocket/damper pulley. The crank pulley's rubber was worn out and it had been slipping. The crankshaft timing mark (the white line seen below) is way off when compared to it's location on a replacement pulley that just came in the mail. By the way, at this time the cost is about $50 from IPD, and on Ebay you can find one that ships for about $60.

So I need to install the replacement pulley, the new fuel pump and seals, the new timing belt, and new accessory belts next weekend. Any tips on best procedures for seal replacement? How do I get the cam and intermediate shaft sprockets off?

Then it's back to figuring out why the car started to run so badly that it became undrivable.

Here is a view of the distributors rotor and timing marks:

If there is no oil leakage from any of the seals, I would say leave them alone.
You may get yourself into more trouble FOR NO GOOD REASON.

Hi,

I agree with CB about replacing those seals. If they are not leaking any oil then they are doing their job is. You cannot ask for them to do anything more.
I have seen on here where people have gone to the trouble to change seals and either got inferior replacements, Elring mentioned, or rolled the lip of the seal. They did not push them squarely or scratched a sealing surface with a tool. It is a sad day to put it back to together and it leaks terribly.

A slipping crank pulley's Mark found at them bottom exactly 180 degrees seems very odd to me! Having the distributor's rotor button on target of number one, just exactly is also interesting?

If the rubber broke totally loose to do that why did it stop there, I ask. That thing should have almost fallen off! Guess, if it were not for the v-belts holding on to it it would.
How did it ever turn the alternator?
Its just plain strange or did it fall off when you took the belts off?

I'm asking my self what is wrong with this picture or the pulley mark? It's Exactly in the straight down position that bugs me!
This seems like your are timed up on numbers two and three Pistons but the distributor is not off 180 degrees.
You need to locate the key ways properly.
The keyway that is cut down into the crankshaft lines up on the casted in rib on the engine front case. The internal key of the sprocket fits it.
The crankshaft pulley's key, that's on the sprocket face, is directly opposite at the bottom facing outwards.

The mark on the pulley itself lines up to the plastic covers mark of zero only!
But in order for that to happen, the keyway on the back of the pulley, is offset about ten degrees from the mark or the mark is, depending on how you what to look at it. This makes it line up to one side to be viewed by a timing light. Up to the 1988's you could move the distributor to vary the timing.

The camshaft cannot be wrong as the very two front lobes will always be pointing upwards "when" the sprocket mark is at the very top aligning mark.
You have to look way back under the cover to see both those the lobes up away from the valves.
You want the number one and four Pistons up not two and threes Pistons.

It's slipped a cog or I have! (:-). Your not messing with this old man, are you?
Could be I'm firing on an exhausted cylinder.
(:-). ... Nah, not me!

Phil

I think you are still firing on all cylinders Phil.

Doubts regarding the crank pulley timing mark make sense. From all appearances a slipping belt might have thrown the timing off so badly that the car wouldn't run properly. The crank pulley rubber did not break totally loose, it was still tight enough to turn the water pump and alternator, but apparently not tight enough to keep from slipping and giving a false timing indication. It isn't off 180 degrees though. I painted the keyways and timing marks on the new pulley that's going in this weekend and did the same on the old pulley so you could see how far it's outer section had slipped:



Thanks to you and CB for the advice about not replacing the seals. I got three seals in a kit with the timing belt and tensioner. I was thinking that with the engine's front parts pulled off I might as well replace whatever was handy. But if you guys think it is better not to change them, so be it.

Hi,

Glad to see you have gotten that pulley off.
That thing truely did spin or creep around the clock!

So now you can pull the bottom cover and look straight in-line with all the dots and marks.
The pictures you are taking are at a wee bit of an angle and I'm trying to visualize how much to compensate. You cannot compensate. You have to see all of them straight on just like a gun sight front to back. This may require the use of a mirror. Especially on the intermediate sprocket as the mark hides down the right side of the plastic cover.
You don't want any of the three off one tooth.
The lower crankshaft sprocket takes a liitle counting the teeth on the sprocket around backwards from the mark and then counting upwards on the new belt to imagine you have the lines roll into the marked tooth. This of course is a reference only on new belts. Bottom line you do not want any slack on the right side of the belt between all three marks. All three marks are to be dead on their locations with the tensioner set and locked down.
Roll the engine around to the right pulling the belt down. Do this for at least two revolutions and recheck the upper cam mark again!
The pulley mark should be on the plastic zero. You are not going to be able see any others due to the lower cover.

I did note that you said you have been a life long model aircraft builder so your attention to details should pay off here. I have faith that you will get this car running.
Imagine a Volvo interactive owner, turned mechanic, being just like in the movie "Flight of the Phoenix" even though your talent won't show up until the end.
You might graduate onto a movie set someday! That 1965 movie was redone in 2004 but I have not seen it. I had a touch (about 3 months) of Hollywood hit me when I made those lens bodies for Industrial Light and Magic in 1982.

When you get the engine running you should check the basic timing with a timing light with that new pulley showing correct marks. On the 1985 you can do this. Don't try it on the 1989 and later models. It's preset and not adjustable but the rotor still has to be centered under the number one wire.
The PO may have moved the distributor using the slipped marks. You are only allowed +/- TWO degrees and who knows what it is now?

I have been looking over your past posts. Looking for more than timing being the only issue.
You got this car for $450. If your tires are holding air to drive you got one-fourth of you investment back right there!
I need to ask how long did this car sit before you picked it up?
Did you have trouble starting it in the beginning?
How many miles did it go before the running and quitting, out of the blue, did that start?
Did the PO mention the any reasons for selling it?
That was a bit on the cheap side!

Almost like Rodney Dangerfield, the comedian that said "and here is my wife, take her, please!"

Phil

Answers to your questions.

The PO was a Swedish immigrant who works at Microsoft. He and his family live in my neighborhood. I recognized the car from a picture of it in front of his house when I saw it in a Craigslist ad. I called him up and walked over. His family now uses a couple of new Volvo's that are parked in his driveway and it seems the neighbors weren't big fans of the older car. Here in Seattle now the few old cars left often have homeless people sleeping in them, so I guess as the years passed an '85 Volvo parked there day in day out gradually became some kind of class thing.



I asked how long he'd had it. He had used the car quite a lot some years before, then his daughter drove it while she was in school, and then it was parked out front when she graduated. I think it sat for a year or two, judging by the layer of tree sap, dirt,and trace of moss. He was asking $600 but quickly and cheerfully accepted my offer. I didn't need a third car but It was white, automatic, in good shape overall, and I liked it. It fired right up and ran well. The tires were used up so I got a new set of Michelin's that cost more than the car and ran it for about a year with the only problem being the brakes -- low pedal after 20 minutes at highway speed and no use. I put in a new master cylinder, rotors, and calipers and pressure bled the system, which took care of that finally.

I had five other old Volvo's through the years but this one has particularly light and precise steering and it looks like head work was done. I wonder if it had a different cam installed, because it liked to go fast (relatively speaking). On the advice of his mechanic the PO had never used the sunroof but I put the crank handle on and found that it worked just fine. I guess that I put about eight thousand miles on it. Then I noticed that it was not Idling at first when starting from cold. It would stall when I put the car in gear. I put in a set of plugs which I thought helped. Then the low speed acceleration went away. It could still run fast though. Then my buddy put in a radio and it wouldn't start that day. I would plug the fuel pump relay in and out at KP-II until I could hear the relays working and get a start that way. One last trip to the grocer and a stall half a block from home. The relay trick barely worked one more time and I limped back into the garage barely running.

Here are updated photos.

Crank timing:



Intermediate shaft:



Wiring harness below the crank pulley:

New water pump, tensioner, and belt. Turned engine clockwise several times and checked timing mark alignment. Still good.

Hi,

On this post it looks like you got things right on two out of three, if the rotor is?
I cannot see the oil pumps/distributor sprocket mark.
I went out and took a look at a 1990 engine that I have hanging on an engine stand to get my thoughts of sight right.
The mark on it will actually be lower to the right at about 4:30 “O” Clock position than what I said it earlier thinking it was a three position. The engine leans too so it gets weird to use the clock idea.

I the previous post you were concentrating on the wiring harness but the crankshaft key was just a tiny bit off to the left. Not quite in the dead center of the keyway.
It was then I noticed, Just above it to the right, I can see a faint dot or speck that might be the timing dot on the distributor sprocket. You may have things just sitting close and not ready for a belt, I don’t know!

The mark looks purposeful in the picture but I think it should be on the tooth with a valley above it. Not on a whole tooth that’s upright.
If you look at the camshafts mark, you will see what I mean.

The engine not making a cough is not good but from the last picture. It looks close enough to be doing something right unless absolutely no fuel or that rotor is worse off it’s rotation than I can tell.

The engine bay does look better that what I thought you paid $450 for!
Maybe you have a diamond in the rough!
Keep up the work and study because it’s showing off nicely here.

Phil

Thanks for your help! I'm confident that I have got all the marks properly aligned now. I rolled the engine two revolutions and checked, several times. The cam lobes for #1 were up, and the #1 piston was at the top. The marks, all three, were consistently aligned when the rotor was pointed in the right direction for TDC at cylinder 1. I am sure because I did the checks with the lower timing cover off so I could see. Then I backed out the crank pulley nut which was not fully tightened and reinstalled the timing covers before replacing the pulley and using the rope trick to torque it.

The "no squirt" problem remains. Fuel pumps are supplying the fuel rail with gas. While cranking, I still can't feel any injector pulses when I place a screwdriver on the body of an injector. Spark plugs are dry.

I understand that I need to read the recommended troubleshooting manual and learn the test procedures for a no-injectors problem. I'll have time Wednesday and Thursday night, then I can try again to fix it next Saturday.

"I understand that I need to read the recommended troubleshooting manual ""

it's only a couple of pages for the CHECK and then the DEEPER Your specific Ing/Fuel Model, plus you've done most od the checks already....

Not a Textbook OR a Green Book. an On the Clock-charging per hour rate---PERFORM or I go somewhere else....Book, written for those Guys.

Right! Although the Bentley Manual has been teaching me about the car too.

Update as of 11/11/18. 100 year anniversary of the end of World War One, BTW.

1985 244 cranks (and occasional coughs) but no start. Fuel in fuel rail and spark at plugs. Fuel injectors are not injecting.

I'm using the Bentley Manual, "Checking Main Relay" p. 241-11.

Step 1: Check 87/1 and 87/2 for voltage when cranking? -- Yes, voltage is present at both while the engine cranks.

Step 2 (Errata noted): To do this step correctly I need to know which terminal is fuel relay terminal 86 and which terminal is system relay terminal 86. The test is done with the ignition switch at Key Position 2 (KP-2).

Can someone tell me which terminal 86 I am testing in this picture? (The test lamp is properly grounded and working.)The yellow/black wire goes to one of the terminal 86's, but is this terminal 86 for the fuel relay or the system relay?



Whichever one it is, I have no voltage at this yellow/black wire terminal when the ignition switch is off. However, the test lamp indicates no voltage when the ignition switch is on either.

Would no voltage at this terminal with ignition at KP-2 indicate a fault that would keep the engine from running?

Thanks!

"Would no voltage at this terminal (86-1) with ignition at KP-2 indicate a fault that would keep the engine from running? "

No, it must be low for the engine to run.

"Step 2 (Errata noted): To do this step correctly I need to know which terminal is fuel relay terminal 86 and which terminal is system relay terminal 86. The test is done with the ignition switch at Key Position 2 (KP-2). "

If you noted the error, what use do you have for step 2? Terminal 30 had battery because it originates at the 25A fuse. Terminals 86-1 and 86-2 are supplied grounds by the ECU. It is just one of many bogus steps in the Bentley which cause anyone following a cookbook approach to want to pitch the cookbook. Make sure you are reading the section on LH2.4, and not the previous one on LH2.0. If you followed Step 1 and found voltage on 87/1 and 87/2 during cranking or running, it tells you the relay is OK and there is no reason to even go to "Step 2."

"Can someone tell me which terminal 86 I am testing in this picture? (The test lamp is properly grounded and working.)The yellow/black wire goes to one of the terminal 86's, but is this terminal 86 for the fuel relay or the system relay? "

Sure, the yellow/black wire goes to 86-1 which is the side of the system relay coil which needs a ground from the computer to keep the system relay pulled in. The purpose of this circuit is to keep the fuel system active for the amount of time it takes to deliver the burn-off current to the AMM's hot wire.

The blue/green wire goes to 86-2, which is the side of the fuel pump relay which needs a ground while ignition pulses are occurring, to keep fuel delivery pressure.

The reference for these circuits is in 390-28 grid 5-K/L. The grid dividing line for K and L cuts right through the labeling for the 86-1 relay terminal.
--
Art Benstein near Baltimore

A cowboy from Texas was pulled over by an Arizona DPS Trooper for speeding.

The trooper started to lecture the cowboy about his speeding, and in general began to throw his weight around to try to make the cowboy feel uncomfortable.

Finally, the trooper got around to writing out the ticket. As he was doing that, he kept swatting at some flies that were buzzing around his head. The cowboy said, "Y'all havin' some problem with circle flies?"

The trooper stopped writing the ticket and said, "Well yeah, if that's what they're called. But I never heard of no circle flies.

"Well, sir," the cowboy replied, "circle flies hang around ranches. They're called circle flies because they're almost always found circling around the back end of a horse."

The trooper said, "Oh," and went back to writing the ticket. But, a moment later he stopped and said, "Are you calling me a horse's ass?"

"No, sir," the cowboy replied, "I have too much respect for law enforcement to call y'all a horse's ass."

"That's a good thing," the trooper said and went back to writing the ticket.
After a long pause, the cowboy, in his best Texas drawl said, "Hard to fool them flies though."

"voltage at this terminal (86-1)must be low for the engine to run."

"Step 2 (Errata noted) "If you noted the error, what use do you have for step 2?"

"Make sure you are reading the section on LH2.4, and not the previous one on LH2.0."

"the yellow/black wire goes to 86-1 which is the side of the system relay coil which needs a ground from the computer to keep the system relay pulled in. The purpose of this circuit is to keep the fuel system active for the amount of time it takes to deliver the burn-off current to the AMM's hot wire. The blue/green wire goes to 86-2, which is the side of the fuel pump relay which needs a ground while ignition pulses are occurring, to keep fuel delivery pressure. The reference for these circuits is in 390-28 grid 5-K/L. The grid dividing line for K and L cuts right through the labeling for the 86-1 relay terminal."

You are right, low means almost nothing -- close to zero. Low could be 1 volt, but more typically 0.5-0.7 volts in operation. Point is, for the relay to be energized, there needs to be at least 6 or 7 volts across its coil, which there should be even while cranking.

LH2.2 is correct. My error. But - the section is labeled "LH-2.2, LH-2.4, LH3.1" so the end result is the same. The paragraph behind it matches what you quoted, and that is titled LH2.0.

Just an aside here... a lot of the errors we found in the Bentley were the result of folks asking the same questions as you are, scratching their heads at why the book wasn't helping them. Without these questions, the errors would have gone unreported. We can thank those who came before you, and I'm sure you'll help by pointing out some we haven't yet discovered. Keep asking the questions.

What next? What is the current symptom? Make a thread on what you're trying to fix now rather than a general project-car thread. This forum just doesn't support season-long "project threads" as well as other formats, because of the post-reply structure.
--
Art Benstein near Baltimore

King Ozymandias of Assyria was running low on cash after years of war with the Hittites. His last great possession was the Star of the Euphrates, the most valuable diamond in the ancient world. Desperate, he went to Croesus, the pawnbroker, to ask for a loan.

Croesus said, "I'll give you 100,000 dinars for it".

"But I paid a million dinars for it," the King protested. "Don't you know who I am? I am the king!"

Croesus replied, "When you wish to pawn a Star, makes no difference who you are."

As long as you're using the rope trick, you've got a spark plug out, and I presume it is #1. I suggest you try something to help you visualize some of the goings-on within the hidden works of the motor itself in relation to setting up the mechanical timing.

Using a straw, popsicle stick, or chopstick, feel the top of the #1 piston through the plug hole while you rock the crank back and forth over the TDC center you've established. Pay attention to how clearly you can feel and resolve down to one distinct tooth where TDC is.

If you have the timing belt tight, and the cam set to the mark on its sprocket, you can feel for yourself just how accurately you can know TDC, by watching the marked cam tooth pass the reference dot on the upper/inner timing belt cover.

Once you learn this, you need never again weep and gnash your teeth over knowing where TDC is. You don't need to pull radiators, remove lower covers, or even replace slightly slipped crank pulleys to know where TDC is for certain. No need to see the mark on the crank seal carrier or view the crank sprocket. It is as simple as removing the #1 plug.

If you find this useful, I can also show you how to know where the I-shaft sprocket mark is without pulling the lower cover. No worry about parallax errors or need to be using mirrors lining it up.
--
Art Benstein near Baltimore

No trees were harmed in the posting of this message...however an extraordinarily large number of electrons were horribly inconvenienced.

Thanks Art. I didn't mention this previously because of the emphasis on visual alignment of timing marks as stated here, but I have been using a metal rod through the #1 spark plug hole to confirm TDC. Plus the rotor position and timing mark alignments. I'm satisfied that the timing is ok now.

spit and polish
Quite a shot.

offer it for 10 Grand on Craigslist --- if it starts and runs :)))

Thanks CB It looks cleaner than it is. Caked with oily filth underneath. I'm getting a splash shield. And maybe a proper steam cleaning.

I will need to fix a leaking seal where the pipe goes into the back of the new water pump. All the new belts look great.

I just finished putting everything back together and tried it out. No fire at all, not a cough. But it has a good crank pulley,belts and waterpump, and I learned a lot. Back to the manual for a week of study.

Re WaterPump seal. OOPs

That pipe that runs from the WP under the exhs manifold and to the back of the engine - goes and cnx with the hose. Under #4 that pipe has a bracket that is bolted into the block --- 13mm if I recall. The New WP mounting procedure is to undo the bracket freeing up that pipe. The hose will let you move the pipe around a bit.
You then put the seal on the pipe and insert the pipe into the back of the already mounted WP. That way you don't pinch or twist the Seal pushing the WP onto the rigidly held pipe.


Use the Volvo Problem Solver---- go thru the No Start Checks

You shud remove the radiator. Put the front end up on jack stands and sit on the ground directly in front of the engine when you put on the new timing belt.

while you are there, inspect all the wires that cross the front of the engine for failing insulation. 1985 is in the middle years of the dreaded wiring harness rot that caused mysterious problems in the early/mid 80's 240s.

Happy Saturday, Brickboard.

CB, I guess having a good view of the timing marks from the front when setting a new timing belt is important enough to pull off the radiator for it. "In for a dime, in for a dollar" as the saying goes. Phil emphasized the importance of precision as well. One tooth off at any of the three alignment points gives undesirable results,right?

But why use jack stands? Is it to access wiring harness front sections more easily? Should I pull the wiring harness bundle free of its mounting fittings, strip off the outer cover, and then look for problems?

I had previously checked, cleaned, and deox'ed wiring harness connections to the ECU and ICU, the fuel pump relay, the 25amp fender fuse, AAM, etc. Then I sprayed a light coating of dielectric grease on them. In doing that I've seen no signs of any systemic deterioration or even an obviously poor connection -- so far. But the toughest environment has got to be down under the front of the engine. And this car has no splash shield. If wiring is rotten there, today is my best chance to find it.

Taking a lunch break.

Radiator is out. Water pump off. I degreased the wiring harness and surrounding area under the Crankshaft pulley. The wiring harness looked pretty good. I decided not to tear it down to check for shorts. Hope not to regret this.

I'll send pics of my timing mark alignments later.

Taking a lunch break.

Radiator is out. Water pump off. I degreased the wiring harness and surrounding area under the Crankshaft pulley. The wiring harness looked pretty good. I decided not to tear it down to check for shorts. Hope not to regret this.

I'll send pics of my timing mark alignments later.

sorry I told you to take out the radiator.

it wasn't til I read your description of the car that you posted below...that I realized that it was an Automatic. Tranny cooler line needed to be disconected?

I've only owned 240s with manual trans.--- so taking out the rad is easy. and since you were changing the Water Pump.



Re Wiring Harness. When I had really leaky seals on one of mine, to clean up the front, I slit and took off that sheathing and cleaned off the wires. U can buy at an auto parts store, lengths wire covering thats pre-slit---so it's easy to replace.

Not suggesting that you take the sheath off yours, but the stuff is easy to replace.

Buy a Splash Cover. AfterMarket 25-35 bucks

Belly Pan
on sale $18
https://www.ipdusa.com/products/4812/102855-belly-splash-pan-240-260

IPD Splash cover for $18, What a good deal! Thanks.

the initial problem posed...WHAT Exactly was that==== OH YEH Won't start and continue to run???? was that it?

EYE 95 or the West Coast version I-5, got led down the path that ended with a timing belt skipped tooth. that lead to tearing apart the front of the of the engine????

Dear EYE-5

button the thing back up...
download the
Volvo Problem Solver Advanced Edition

Read the Wisdom of People who get paid (back then) $30/hr to Fix UR Volvo and Volvo Owners who paid $65 per copy (in 1988 Money) for the FIX.

Follow ' Won't start and Run procedures.

Report Back

CB,

"Won't start and continue to run?" is correct.

I don't mind if the timing belt was a false lead. The v-belts were old and a new water pump is a good idea. As a lifelong model airplane builder I'm used to frequent setbacks, and I'm somewhat relentless. Learning how to repair these cars from you is a unique experience for me, and rewarding. Reversing entropy can be immensely satisfying, even if only for a small victory.

Hi CB,

Yep, this fellow has been going at this for awhile on weekends.
The postings were under other names, like you have noted.

I read those posts and many others but it seems to be daunting to the owner, that most everything we tell him goes off into some other direction.
He is getting better so, he is trying hard, when he has the time and we can summon up patience for him.
I noticed that Art Beinstein was working with him for a bit and sort of signed off on him a few days ago.
He said others may help and for him to keep at it.
No doubt he checks in every once and awhile.
He does it for me to help me get things right or stay on the straight and narrow.
He is a very astute and technical fellow. With that, there comes a discipline to gain that status and the desire to want to work with other persons in his realm of understanding.
In other words, he is not going to do all of the job of learning for you. You need skin in the game or don’t play.
This is a very normal attitude in any trade involving skills.

Well, CB, you guessed it, I might have been the one that got him to start over to get the basics ruled out. You could say it the willingness to explain and work out for a solution that gives me a challenge or entertainment.
I feel there is nothing that cannot be learned, if nurtured along with the desire to do it.
A car has been designed, built and delivered with a manual. All the hard brain work has been done but read and do it, to fill a void in the mind with accomplishment.
I can say he is working with confidence in his abilities, but we need to find out what those are for us!
Communication is a wonderful thing for civilization or mankind when used for good outcomes. Deciding what those are is perplexing at times.

Those seals getting changed was his idea long before he has learned enough of the basics about how the engine works internally.

When I saw his first pictures, that he has taught himself to display because he has desire.
He did have somewhat, of a working engine, but only needed to “check” the timing marks.
It seems, to me, that the car was in limbo of not firing on its cylinders, from one of the three things of the fire triangle, that are needed to get a fire going to happen.

Now, Since then, he says the crankshaft harmonic balancer had separated its rubber membrane holding the cranks timing mark. That put the buzz on me that the now showing mark is on the bottom exactly 180 degrees out or something I’m missing in knowing what revolution it is on.

You were right to tell him about any books or other forms of communication available.
He has the time during the week to read.
I have found that just ten minutes alone in the bathroom that you can do a lot of processing of words and paper!
(:-)

Phil

Hi Phil,

I'm not daunted. I knew it was only a possibility that the belt threw the timing off, and it sure looked that way at first. No harm in finding out for sure. I'm glad to be learning about the car and slowly making things right, and grateful to Art and you and CB for all the help.

I think I'll follow your lead and keep my Bently manual in the bathroom.

Phil,
I have no idea.
The only thing I can say is that looking at the last Pic posted, showing the White Mark in the crank pulley and the Full Frontal CLEAN like a NEW or a NEWLY Serviced car

the engine compartment does not jive with
"I have a white, nice running 1985 244 sedan purchased for $450"

Whatever

Hi CB.

To explain, The car was in the neighborhood and hadn't been used for a while. It was covered in pine tar, and filthy inside and out.

Things have changed in the Seattle area since the median income here became $156k, so there is pressure from neighbors to have only newer cars. As a result,one rarely sees anything from the 1980's on the road. But I like white 240's and 740's,so I offered the owner $450 and he took it.

I was surprised how strong and smooth the engine was. Relatively speaking, this one is fast for a non-turbo automatic. I began using it on my daily commute to a nearby city.

I have respect and affection for these cars and it bothers me to see the engine compartments covered in oily dirt and neglected. It takes a while, but with brushes and lots of diluted Simple Green they get a bit cleaner every time. After work tonight I took my '91 245 to the car wash, something I enjoy doing every couple of weeks. I'm at the point where no more pine needles and jets of mud come shooting out from under the chrome trim, and the inside of the hood is 3/4 of the way to looking as good as the engine. It's pleasant to work on them when everything looks good, your hands stay clean, and you can spot various little problems more easily.

put a dab of white paint on the Timing Notch on the crank pulley and take and post another pic of that..
Inquiring minds want to know where that is in relation to the rest.

Thanks for the suggestion! I'll do that tonight after work. I can't get the crank pulley off until this weekend, but it will be interesting to know. To tell the truth, I'm really hoping to find that the timing is all messed up. It would be relatively straightforward to correct, and the new seals, belts, and fuel pump I'm m installing won't be hanging on a car that does not run.

You need to make sure the engine is at TDC of the compression stroke, piston at the top and both valves closed.

Take the oil filler cap off and look at the first two valves, they both should be closed at TDC on the compression stroke. If one is open rotate the crankshaft another turn
Dan

A peek at my cam in the '85 244 at TDC Cylinder 1: One cam lobe is horizontal, one is pointed up and inboard at 45 degrees. Valves are closed I believe. Cam timing mark is correct, and no sign of a timing mark on the crank pulley anywhere near the degree scale.

Are both lobes horizontal?

Do you know the piston is at the top of it's stroke?

I am not seeing the first picture you posted?

What does the rubber on the harmonic balancer look like?

Observe the camshaft for movement while someone turns over the engine

Dan

Wow, my pictures here don't stick. I see them, then shortly later, they are gone! I'll try again to show the cam lobes:

Ack! They upload, I see them in the post, then...poof!~

.... and then there is also the chance of sheared keying on the crank sprocket/damper pulley.
--
Current rides: 2005 Volvo S80 2.5T, 2003 Volvo V70 2.4NA, 1973 Volvo 1800ES (getting ever closer to road worthiness)

Yes, if my crank pulley key is sheared the timing marks are meaningless. I will know this Sunday.

CB sent a link to a lot of documentation:

https://ozvolvo.org/archive/archive.php

Many very interesting and potentially useful bits of old Volvo information are here, but little indexing. I found a great image of how my timing marks should look. I'll post it next.

using that OZ link

go to the bottom of the list. Scroll Up until you see listings for Volvo xxxxxxx.
It is the last in the list and just above some WORKBOOK xxxx listings

dnload
Volvo_Problem_Solver_Repair_Manual_1962-1994_Models.pdf

If you did not get it in my post to you....this is the link I had tried to send you originally . This is something that you will find very usefull in tracing down problems...a compilation logical procedures gleaned from actual working Volvo mechanics. Out of Print. Originally sold by IPD and many other Volvo parts vendors for $65 per copy. Before the Internet, before computer graphics --- DotMatrix diagrams and no Pictures.

As you suggested, I have it from the Oz Volvo Archive, all 245 pages of old Volvo wisdom. I think I'll print it our and put it in a binder. It will take time to learn all that it contains, but I am motivated to do that.

On my 1985 244, when the cam timing mark is aligned as shown in the illustration below, the crank pulley timing mark which should be visible is nowhere in sight.

I hope that is my problem, that the timing belt skipped teeth and caused misalignment of the cam gear/intermediate shaft and crankshaft pulley. Maybe when I get the lower cover off I'll find the intermediate shaft is not set correctly due to a slipped timing belt. Maybe I can replace the belt and the car will run again. If wished were fishes! Guess I'll find out on Saturday.

If the timing mark on the crank pulley ---which is a Notch in the metal rim--cannot be seen near the Degree Graded plastic cover ---

Then the ODDS ARE GREAT that the Belt has NOT Jumped A Tooth. A tooth off would not take that Mark on the pulley totally out of sight.

There is a raised 0degree mark on the lower cover itself. there is no need to pull it off to find 0.


Rotate the crank pulley and Find The Cut Notch...put a dab of white paint on it so you can easitly see it.
When you line up the 0 degree marks on the Cam and the Distrib --- where is the mark on the Crank Pulley in relation to the 0 Mark on the lower platic cover.

Do that before you go any further.

CB on Wed Oct 24 13:44 CST 2018:

"There is a raised 0degree mark on the lower cover itself. there is no need to pull it off to find 0.Rotate the crank pulley and Find The Cut Notch...put a dab of white paint on it so you can easitly see it.
When you line up the 0 degree marks on the Cam and the Distrib --- where is the mark on the Crank Pulley in relation to the 0 Mark on the lower platic cover.
Do that before you go any further."

Thanks CB. I had temporarily mounted the new pulley in position to check it's timing mark alignment. However, I understand now that the temporary alignment position shown in the photo I took below is fairly close, but incorrect.

To establish the correct position, I will reinstall the lower timing cover as directed and align the crank pulley timing mark to the spot on the cover indicating zero degrees.

Ok CB. Too bad, maybe my trouble isn't a simple fix. Will do this tonight.

"You need to make sure the engine is at TDC of the compression stroke, piston at the top and both valves closed. Take the oil filler cap off and look at the first two valves, they both should be closed at TDC on the compression stroke. If one is open rotate the crankshaft another turn
Dan"


Here is a photo of my cam lobes at TDC for #1 cylinder: