Hi Brickboard,


I have a 1983 240 automatic.Its been a joy to drive with no problems to speak of until last year... The starter began to catch the flywheel. It wouldnt happen everytime, but the problem got worse and worse. The loud noises that screeched from the car really were grinding on my nerves. So I finally had it looked at when visiting family out of state. Bad idea.

Its been down hill from there...

The original Bosch starter was replaced by the of state mechanic.. did not solve the problem. Nothing was wrong with the starter, but he replaced it anyways and gave me back the original.


My mechanic here in New Orleans has taken the job since then. He has been relentless and has been through 3 new starters, 2 flywheels, all ending in the same catching and grinding, shreding of the flywheels. His last attempt was a flywheel and starter manuafactured by the same company.

And now the car will hardly start.

I'm no mechanic and he's not computer savvy so Im now scouring the internet trying to get any tips to bring my car back to life. He's keeping it at his shop and is willing to continue to play with it.


Any and all thoughts to greatly appreciated, thanks!

Hi,

I will have to say this is one messed up post on trying to define the problem with the car!

This whole thing about going through 3 starters and two flywheels is nonsense.
How do you change flywheels without pulling the transmission? No mention of that! Why?

I’m Just sorry, but this is not computing out in my brain!

The starter and flywheels are THE starting system, all to itself. They work as a system, ONLY when and after, the starter is told to engage, by the ignition switch.
When the engine starts, the engines flywheels speed, will spin the starter gear and it’s one way clutch faster than the electric motor can turn it. This extra force helps drive the gear teeth out of mesh. The result is to get away from the teeth of the flywheel. That is, if the person releases the solenoid that engaged the whole affair to begin with!

Now, If a person, say a young child, did not know a thing about starting a car is the only way this can happen through this many replacement starters!
That kid would have sit there and turn the key repeated despite knowing that the engine was running.
What You are describing is something like this event.

Take away any kid I mentioned and what you have is, a REALLY BAD bad ignition switch!
It is hanging up in the third position!
It is doing cranking and not stopping the starter when told too!

Is this possible, yes! Sticky Fingers on a keys helps!
How long? Well,that depends on how many times or how long it takes to realize what started this to happen in the first place.


Now you are adding in a twister by saying, “it will hardly start.”
Do you mean crank or getting the engine to run?

A starter can get the dickens beat out of it if the engine is prematurely firing on its cylinders and kicking the flywheel backwards.
Does the engine backfire?
Is the basic timing correct?
This car uses a hall sensor in the distributor and the engine wiring harness could be totally whacked inside the loom!
Have the timing checked with a spark timing light.

Please sort out your descriptions better and add in the sequence of this all happening.

There is an answer and some decent or better mechanics need to be getting their act together on this car!
IMHO

Phil

OMG OMG OMG
Triggered.....

phil, they'll be "shadow banning" you next. You rude rude fellow. :))))))

Hi ... CB,

I’m not aware of being banned because I had to look up what the heck you were even talking about.
(:)? I will admit that our President is strange as the other anti-law dogs he has run with!
I don’t know if social media quality was lowered or raised since the election but the awareness level is more at the fore front!

Since you pointed out my “rudeness” in trying to understand why a starter gets changed three times with the same results, I went and looked at the profile of the poster.
The person is a newbie and is her first post and maybe last thanks to me?
My intent was to explain, by example, how the scenario “laid out” could happen in the weirdest of cases.
Also, if it’s a she, living in our favorite town of “default Alabama” and really needs help in learning on how to manage repair services!

In doing some factoring of my original questions, it’s possible that “She” has an old car, that people or mechanics are trying to discourage the fixing of!
I can’t imagine all the work getting done for free.
I imagine the car is sitting like it does in a body shop for days on end and NOTHING is being worked on.
In some cases, this turns into an abandoned car and gets parted out for bogus storage fees!

I’m not saying that this is where the car is now, but with just a little miss or nonexistent communications, things can and will get crazy, depending on each states “lien” laws!
The fine print at the bottom of service agreements are neck twisters!
If you have ever flipped through channels and seen a few episodes of “small claims court” you’ll know what I’m talking about!


Thanks for the heads up, I guess, if you are reading this? (:#))

Phil

Phil
was a joke...refering to this exhange I had earlier.

https://www.brickboard.com/RWD/volvo/1662389/220/240/260/280/iac_changes_things_tapped.html

cheers

Hi,

I really didn’t take it any other way because I saw the happy face with all those laughing jaws!
I was serious about having to look up that new term “ shadow banned!”
Actually, it really fits me!
I have heard of the “Dark Web” and since I really don’t play on any other social media sites, I would be fitting in between.
So, shadows works for this guy! (:)

I read Art’s post on crankshaft movement and agree that it can move some on plain bearing journals with the application of end loading.
I poked around in the shadows (:) and read that this can happen from a clutch system or even the ballooning of a torque converter housing?
A pressure plate and throw out bearing sounds reasonable, but a working torque converter is a “stretch,” in my book and meant as a pun! (:)

From what I read a thrust bearing fills into a space designed for it.
The crankshaft is setup for about and average of .006 to .010 oil clearance.
The thrust bearings flanges, on the package, would have to practically disintegrate for the flywheel to move out of the range of width of a starters engagement gear, IMO.
It’s length is almost twice the width of the flywheels teeth due to lead chamfers. Gear tooth Strength is made up within its face engagement length.
Now, I have seen on “Fords” that the number of teeth or the tooth’s (“DP”) or Diametrical Pitch size change on a starters gear within model years because they can!
Now, this could be the fault of rebuilders trying to keep up with factory foolishness or who knows, what?
Fortunately, Volvo got the rules of their game correct to get this many many years of production. That is, until Bosch downsized the motor weight within the last few years of 240’s!

A sign given out that this was the beginning of newer models and was Volvo’s future of uncertainty!
A real mismatch of trials and errors!

The post about this thread being BOGUS just might be True, too!

So, where is he BB headed, as it might have to get replugged or run on batteries as well!

Phil

Phil, I gotta admit I've been thinking on this starter problem a while, and it puzzles me. I'm familiar with how a technical story gets re-written when re-told third hand (I've got 4 daughters) because things just get mixed up.

If you buy it on the face of it, "relentless" describes the effort for sure. I keep thinking about when I had the bottom end of a B23F in my face and trying to imagine if it were at all possible for a thrust bearing to disintegrate such that the flex plate and ring gear won't stay put axially. Nah.

Wouldn't it be great if the relentless mechanic would join the discussion? C'mon, someone in his or her shop must have a web browser to use.

Always enjoy a good puzzle, and like flying, many of them are solved by a good understanding of human factors. Now I'll go and look up some of what CB has been posting.
--
Art Benstein near Baltimore

You can easily judge the character of a man by how he treats those who can do nothing for him. ~Malcolm S. Forbes

Art wrote"I keep thinking about when I had the bottom end of a B23F in my face and trying to imagine if it were at all possible for a thrust bearing to disintegrate such that the flex plate and ring gear won't stay put axially. Nah."
I don't know what the problem is here but since you wrote about the thrust bearing I have to relate a story about a car I turned down. A young friend had purchased a 740 and brought it to me for various repairs. Later on he was looking to move on and offered it to me at a reasonable price. I gave it a thorough look over and found it now had a front seal leak. What I found with further checking I could hardly believe -- I could push the the entire crank back and forth what seemed like more than a quarter inch and with that, turned down the offer. -- Dave

All bogus, Alabama again.
--
Keeping it running is better than buying new

My impression is that the starter gear teeth are softer than the ring gear teeth. So it is the starter teeth that get chipped and destroyed. Less likely the hard to replace ring gear. The square gear of the starter becomes conical as more of the teeth get chipped off.

I've switched out starters when the noise becomes too frequent. Still haven't got around to replacing the gear teeth on the bad starters.
--
1980 245 Canadian B21A with SU carb, M46 trans, 3:31 dif, in Brampton, Ont.

That is an unusual problem. You say "shredding of the flywheels". I'm assuming the teeth on the ring gear are getting chewed up? It may be that somehow the flywheel is not turning true. Either it is wobbling or out of round. This would cause the teeth to grind or screech as they engage either too tightly or too loose.

With the starter out so you can see the ring gear teeth, install a dial indicator to measure first the side of the gear ring and then again measuring the outer tips of the gear while turning the engine by hand. This will be made easier with the spark plugs removed.

This image is not exactly like I'm suggesting but is an example. I think it could be done through the starter mounting hole:
http://johnmaherracing.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/flywheel_runout2.jpg