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After a complete restoration, i have been hunting ghosts for two weeks. Im about to give up and tow it to a volvo specialist.
Initially it wouldn't start because pal cartridge fuses on battery terminal were blown (actually melted on the bottom, but looked good on top. I belived this was caused by a short in the driverside fuse area. One fuse had fallen and was shorting and burning at another.
After that, it started, but very rough, then shuts off almost immediately
It was throwing engine coolant temp sensor codes on ignition and fuel system.
I went through most fault testing and found what i thought were ground issues.
Still wouldnt stay started, and i was hearing loud exhaust leak from passengerside engine area. I had put on a new downpipe, but all seems connected well. When turning the crank by hand, i can hear hissing in that area.
Then i realized i was leaking oil at the oil pan front and rear. Despite new seprator box, seal, new flame trap, etc... I removed the seperator to clean out the drain pipe with a wire and wire brush.
Now i read on fcp site that too rich of gas could cause issues. The car had been sitting for 8 months while i was redoing everything i could. I thought i had drained the tank when it was parked, but then i realized it was the my other 240 which is in an early reconditioning with the tank out completely. When i put gas in it, It WAS NON-ETHANOL that i had for the lawn mower. I didnt even consider it would be a problem. I put about 4 gallons in it, but it was filled up then.
Any thought on the gas issue? Should i get it all out and put in new?
I had reconditioned the exhaust manifold by cleaning, removing rust and pits, and i never found any cracks.
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Follow up:
The problem with it not staying running came down to a faulty fuel injector. I had "refurbished" the set I had with complete kits and a home made activator for cleaning. Apparently, one was bad and the third mechanic fixed it by swapping out the fuel injectors.
This is after I had replaced the fuel relay, fuel filter, main pump, and the in tank pump.
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Hi,
Oh wow!
One year to the day, since your last post on this car, that is, if the posting dates are correct?
Can we called this a pattern of habits?
Phil
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Can't believe I mis-read the dates.....oh well....
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Hi Michael,
You didn’t miss read anything at all! It’s just been awhile?
Yes the post was old, but the person who updated the post was the originator from that last year, now.
I think, which is questionable of how that happens, that he knew he had been off the BB for a while and saw his old post in his profile.
He wanted a new thread and wanted a good response about a current issue with the car.
In my logic, This, is why he got it updated to say it wasn’t gasoline and methanols.
He got a mechanic to comb through his wallet and change a bunch of stuff along the way.
He says it was an injector problem
This time it’s about codes and a CPS or as I suggested, the ignition relay behind the battery.
You see what happens when I try to keep my post short and who knows, when they get too long!
(:-)
Maybe you can confirm this for me.
I don’t travel across country that much and you talk about E10 or E15 fuels.
Is that the amount of methanol to be allowed in the gasoline at different prices and so forth?
Isn’t it only for dual fuel vehicles? Supposedly they are setup, fuel line wise, not to be affected by methanol and can adjust their timing and things inside.
Here in the west, we have notations on the pump that say may contain “up to 10%“ methanol.
But then again, I live in a “no yearly smog requirements area.” I don’t see any “E” pumps.
You have to be alert to find diesel with those “green nozzles” connected on hoses at most stations. In alert, I mean I don’t have one, so I don’t bother so much! Their around on newer tandem pumps.
Adding on two more flavors, must be a bear for the station owners to get on board with.
Do they mix it, at the pump, from a separate all methanol tank?
Phil
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As C1800 said -- E10 is up to 10% ethanol. E15 is up to 15% ethanol. E85 is - you guessed it - 85% ethanol. Many dual fuel OEM's out there and they sense the amount of alcohol in the fuel and adjust accordingly. If the sign on the pump says "this fuel may contain up to 10% ethanol (or alcohol)" - that's an E10 pump.
Ethanol is great for boosted engines as it does a tremendous job cooling the chamber down helping to resist detonation, allowing for more boost, etc. Downside is that there's about 35% less energy density in that alcohol -- so your fuel mileage suffers accordingly. While it burns a bit cleaner, you use 30-35% more of it than gasoline. Also, the incremental emissions (vs. gasoline) associated with the amount of energy it takes (mainly diesel and however electricity is generated in the affected areas) to actually create the ethanol and get it in the tank more than offset the cleanliness benefit you get when you burn it. So -- all in all, the farm lobby wins. And the rest of us lose. But someone, somewhere feels better about it.
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Hi there Michael,
Thanks for all the information.
I went out and checked around on the Internet and there are not many stations in California.
They are mostly in the southern end or just around major cities of the state. Very few addresses to go with each station in the cities too!
I checked Iowa, the corn state and saw about 50 towns. It looks very thin considering the supply that should be there.
Considering the lower energy value and all of the drawbacks of making the stuff it surely looks like another political boondoggle all right!
I’m surprised the the manufacturers fell for such a line of BS. They must have gotten a lot of incentives to jump into that!
It was a fishing expedition with lines loaded up with so many sinkers, it’s no wonder it didn’t go anywhere!
I think the Tesla cars have more charging stations all over the USA, plus there are other companies getting into the business of setting them up.
Even Harley Davidson has jump in with an electric motorcycle.
They don’t usually make changes unless they have contacted the Smithsonian institute or jumped into bed with Germany to design engines for them. It’s my understanding the Porsche was in on the V-Rod motor. Porsche or others over there in Germany are always playing with different designs.
That’s how Volvo got a five cylinder engine on the cheap! It was a cast off from their prototype department.
Does anyone else have a 5 cylinder motor? When I first heard of it I thought of the British, to the likes of Coopers, Bentley and Jaguars. To the credit of the Brits they have contributed a lot to the aviation side of things over the many years.
Rivalry with the Germans has been there the whole way too!
The USA has been into it too, actually, sorting out all the good ideas from the bad ones, IMHO!
We never did all our stuff completely on our own!
Why should we get miffed with China, as we are all sluts, when it come to intellectual properties!
I think the Germans help them come up with the electric option to the tune of about $30,000 a copy!
What gets me is that the thing is loaded with electronic features to help a person to keep from killing themselves. Must be workable as a woman is driving it!
I was just looking at the boots, not her shape, really! (:)
https://www.machinedesign.com/mechanical-motion-systems/article/21127367/harleydavidson-goes-allelectric-with-its-livewire-motorcycle?utm_source=MN+MD+Today&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=CPS200327037&o_eid=9049F9628890F7D&rdx.ident%5Bpull%5D=omeda%7C9049F9628890F7D&oly_enc_id=9049F9628890F7D
The above is for your entertainment!
The power is instantaneous with a twist of the throttle grip!
Forget winding up a V-8 anymore!
Phil
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From Phil's post
"Maybe you can confirm this for me.
I don’t travel across country that much and you talk about E10 or E15 fuels.
Is that the amount of methanol to be allowed in the gasoline at different prices and so forth?
Isn’t it only for dual fuel vehicles? Supposedly they are setup, fuel line wise, not to be affected by methanol and can adjust their timing and things inside.Here in the west, we have notations on the pump that say may contain “up to 10%“ methanol."
Hi Phil, the subject is ETHANOL, not Methanol. E10 has up to 10% ethanoll content, E15, put to 15%. Price has no bearing on the content.
A dual fuel vehicle has 2 separate systems, e.g. gasoline and LPG. Flexfuel vehicles can run up to 85% ethanol in gasoline. E85 should not be used in vehicles not designed for it.
Since there is a requirement in many jurisdictions that gasoline must contain up to a certain % (typically 5 or 10%) of ethanol in gasoline, it follows that all gasoline powered vehicles can run on E10.
However our older vehicles might have problems, particularly old rubber fuel lines not rated for ethanol. But older vehicles will run fine on E10 if properly maintained.
No the fuel isn't mixed at the station from a separate ethanol tank, its delivered to the station already mixed.
If you look at the pump when filling up there should be a label on the pump stating the ethanol content.
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Update is that i gave up. The car has been at the mechanic for a week. Last uodate i got was that the leak at the pan was actually coming from the alternator braket. Im getting a little worried that it hasnt been finished yet.
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Hi,
Oil leaking from an alternator bracket ... really? I guess I would NOT be filling up the alternator with oil anymore! Yep, that was a ridiculous statement or a misinterpreted one.
Oil is like water and runs down hill. It will stick around long after the water evaporates.
I would think higher up than an alternator bracket.
Make sure it was not an oil filter or the oil pressure sensor weeping.
The sensor can weep right where the terminal comes through the cap or around the rolled crimp that holds the dome in place.
Higher up is a head gasket or valve cover gasket. The main oil gallery goes up inside the block to the head. The hole there is about 1/4” from the outside world.
A gasket can and will eventually start weeping there but it takes years to happen and very slowly I might add.
Clean up the engine really well and give it Time, to show itself!
Rolling the engine by hand and having a hissing sound, gives me a first thought, of a loose or stripped spark plug hole. Is this car new to you? If not, pull them plugs!
None of this will cause it to start and then die on you.
What you have here is “a failure to communicate.”
One part of the car, stops talking to the rest of its wonderful self!
You mention a bad fuse holder out in the engine Bay Area. I wasn’t aware that a 1993 still had a fuse out there.
Wasn’t that circuit moved to the fuse panel in the door hinge area?
Anyway, that circuit does power up the fuel injection system on other prior cars.
Trick is, they only blow once, so it restarting and dying again is not going to happen without a replacement.
Corrosion on terminals does cause voltage drop or pitted contacts in a relay is the same.
Electronics use very little juice, but it needs that juice to be There!
This scenario sounds more like a failing system relay on the injector side.
You can check for a power failure by putting a test light on the orange on the back side of the AMM connector. The orange wire comes by there on the way to the injectors.
If one side of that relay is dropping out, the light will go out. Now that could reset after cooling off and repeat and repeat.
This is one part of the three to make fire. The other one is compression but if it runs, that gets written off.
This leaves ignition of which should be the first troubleshooting area to rule out as shutting off.
This could be a bad CPS or connection onto the Ignition Coil Power Relay located behind the battery.
The CPS cannot be conclusively tested, short of doing a replacement and having a spare.
The ICPR can be checked for corrosion in the connector and it’s ground wire outside the harness.
This item should be serviced every ten years or so, depending on the cars environment.
Most time just yanking the connector off and looking helps clean the pins inside. This can removed the problem “temporarily” and means go back and do a good maintenance procedure on the connection.
I would suggest taking the car back from the mechanic and do this all yourself!
These cars are very repairable, at little or no cost, in many cases!
You will most likely stumble into the problem long before your mechanic will!
He is looking at paying customers and doing routine maintenance services.
He wants to get in and get out repairs only!
He is waiting you out and not wanting to work on your “dog” of a repair job!
A dog repair is a term used for meaning, the repair is “dogging” him down with too much “time and brain work, of which, bites him in the BUTT!
The BOTTOM line IS, he sells no parts and makes very little money!
He is working on a hobbyist car and since he has a business overhead, he is not a hobbyist!
I surmise hat he is doing his best in the public relations department and very likely an honest mechanic.
His overall picture is the value of the car and what is in it for him, from you?
There is just as much knowledge on the BB, as he has and since your waiting, letting the BB help you is your best investment!
Heck, we are all paying into internet access from every direction!
If we can help you fix it, a donation of “conscious” to the board, can keep it alive!
Im making my contribution for my entertainment.
I’m thinking I’m enjoying doing this as much as I would a magazine subscription.
This helps the board more than money but if Jarrod has $8,000 in overhead that’s not for a hobbyist!
Tough call fo me to decide, how much is enough, to be helping all of us?
IMHO the internet is just too greedy for there’s not enough GIVE, but plenty of taking!
Television should be free again or paying us, to participate in commercials watching for 20 minutes, of every hour!
Phil
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Your car has a 9.8:1 compression ratio, no? I can't see that being compatible with non-ethanol lawnmower gas. Where do you even find such stuff and why would you need it for a lawn mower? I just use regular gas. But your Volvo should still start with that gas, even with the high compression ratio, but it would knock under load.
--
1992 745, >500k km (now gone, but not forgotten)
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Here in the 'corn belt', midwest, the non-ethanol gasoline is rated at 91 octane, same as the ethanol loaded premium gasoline. No knocking even at 10:1 compression on very hot days with a full car.
The non-ethanol gasoline does not eat at the rubber parts, making it great for small engines. This is the same gasoline that was around before ethanol was mandated by the feds.
--
Keeping it running is better than buying new
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Tetra ethyl lead was used in gasoline to boost octane back in the day before it was banned as toxic. That spelled the end for high compression muscle cars with 10:1 and 11:1 compression ratios. Since then other octane boosting additives have been used, including ethanol, which is the main one today. Ethanol also satisfied the environmentalist and agriculture lobby groups and farmers were subsidized. But those old muscle car engines also needed the lead additive to lubricate the valve stems, so they needed other additives. Avgas still contains lead because safety and performance trumps environmentalism in the air.
--
1992 745, >500k km (now gone, but not forgotten)
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The octane rating is what's important for knock resistance -- not whether there's ethanol in the gasoline or not. Down here I can get 87 (regular), 91 (mid-grade) or 93 (premium) octane in gasoline either with ethanol or without.
As long as the octane is proper for the application -- the Volvo engine will LOVE non-ethanol gasoline. And you'll see a 2-4% improvement in fuel economy over the E10-E15 that is commonly available.
But the issue at hand is the age of the fuel. 8 months isn't a terribly long time for "old fuel". When I re-powered my Volvo - it sat from Labor Day of '15 til Labor Day of '16. It had about 10 gallons of E10 premium in it all that time. The entire fuel system was replaced during the re-powering - so the "old fuel" was only in the tank. I placed the fuel line into a 5 gallon gasoline can and fired the fuel pump to pump 8 gallons out -- 4 gallons at a time. I added the 4 gallons I pumped out to the half full tanks of our daily drivers - 4 gallons in the 2016 Subaru and 4 in the 2017 Mazda. Couldn't tell any difference at all in the way they ran. Put 5 gallons of fresh 93 octane E10 in with the old 2 gallons in the Volvo.
To the OP - so, there's an approach you can take if you think the age of the fuel might be the issue -- it won't hurt anything, might help a little. But I suspect based on what you've described the drivability issues you're seeing are a function of either the refurbishment gone wrong, or something that should have been addressed that wasn't.
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The point is that ethanol vs. non-ethanol is a non-issue. With or without ethanol, the 87 octane gas is 87 octane gas for the OP's application.
The age of the gas in the tank could have bearing on the poor running condition but I'm of the thinking that 8 month old gas should burn just fine and is not the cause of the symptoms described.
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IM PRETTY SURE THAT OCTAN NEEDS DECREASE W ALTITUDE,,SO SO IN THE MIDWEST ITS POSTED AS LESS AT GAS STATIONS..
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Volvo 240's love non-ethanol gasoline, or in other words, gasoline. Just so long as you didn't put in two-cycle fuel (gas mixed with oil) meant for your weed whacker.
The PAL fuse holder is a problem, but not from "shorts." Corrosion from the battery fumes and moist environment causes poor connections. Poor connections cause heat. Heat makes the connections poorer. Poorer connections make more heat. Plastic melts, making the connections even worse. I can tell you what's wrong, but not how to fix it cheaply.
Oil leaking at the pan gasket? Did someone lift the motor by the pan?
Fuel lacking ethanol is not a problem.
--
Art Benstein near Baltimore
Experience is something you don't get until just after you need it.
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