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Howdy All,
Hope your Volvo is running fine.
I've had this 1980 for about 8 months. The main fuel pump never
really sounded good. Always had a Hum/Buzz sound to it, louder
than usual. I replaced the main pump with an OEM from FCP. But the
replacement pump also had a hum, just a bit quieter. The intank
pump is running fine. When I had main pump out I ran the intank
pump and it's fuel flow into a pan was good. I have confirmed that
the hum is the main pump.
Question: Can a original 40 year old accumulator cause the main
pump to struggle? Is the accumulator an older version of the
Check Valve and also a flow back to tank for excessive fuel?
Thanks in advance,
Joseph Segura
98 degrees in New Mexico today, but have not reached 100 this year.
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Howdy All,
After all the fussing and trying to figure this one out
and also the copper washers were not cooperating, the loud
noise from the main pump area has gone silent. I'm in
the thinking that the noise was coming from the check
valve. The copper washers were not sealing correctly because
I was using the old copper washers. I bought individual
washers at Napa (80 cents each) and at Autozone (kit of 6 for $5),
but they were thin and really looked useless and proved
to be useless. I eventually bought a box of 80 copper washers
in a kit at Harbor Freight for $5. They were a bit thicker
and did the trick. This made me to think that the thicker
first washer between the pump and the check valve changed
the position of how the check valve sits and how the fuel
flows through it. Since it does have the inners that it does,
I'm thinking that the forced fuel pressure creates a certain
hum as it is forced through the check valve and that the
new position caused the sound to change and lessen.
Call me crazy, I'll just add your name to the list.
Thanks again for all the advice and lessons.
Joseph in Hot New Mexico
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posted by
someone claiming to be CB
on
Sun Aug 25 18:27 CST 2019 [ RELATED]
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I have an 80.
In a word Yes, and in my case it depends on the temp. Hot 90+ more buzz.
Low 20s same.
BUT it's NOT the Pump but the Accumulator that's making the noise.
As Phil wrote: "The accumulator is a spring loaded chamber that is more of an expansion tank or like a bladder tank used on water pumping wells that provide cycle off time"
so you can live with it or try to find another one.
If you are looking to replace...Used or New, I'd give those guys in Atlanta a call on monday or shoot an email.
http://www.voluparts.com/
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Hi CB,
You are correct. 90 plus degrees out and the buzz/hum returns.
Guess she will be the night time car of choice. I'll keep an
eye peeled for an accumulator for sale. Thanks
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posted by
someone claiming to be CB
on
Wed Aug 28 16:34 CST 2019 [ RELATED]
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do not limit your search just to an Accumulator for a "VOLVO"
The fuel system (K-Jet) is a Bosch system. It is found in Porsche(911s) VWs, Audi, prob BMWs in that time period before Electronic Fuel Injection.
Get the part number off the front and use that to search... Bosch xxxxxxxxx
example: Porsche 911
https://i.ebayimg.com/images/i/192753348474-0-1/s-l1000.jpg
or email the guys in Atlanta to at least get a price
http://www.voluparts.com/
Cheers
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The accumulator was used from about 1977 - 1985.
Parts shops say that from 77-81 one type was used
then from 82-85 was another model of accumulator.
They look very similar to one another.
Does anyone know if they are interchangeable?
My salvage yard has 2 1983's and one 1985.
My year is 1980.
Thanks in advance.
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only turbos had kjet 83-85. all 80-81s, most 82s. so, the junkyard may not do it. persoanlly, i'd buy new because sitting isn't good for any rubber.
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posted by
someone claiming to be CB
on
Thu Aug 29 09:54 CST 2019 [ RELATED]
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the answer to that question is in the Bosch Part Number stamped on the device.
My RPR parts catalog shows a difference --- the last 3 digits in the part number being key.
79-82/82.5 and the 81 Turbo === 007. 82-85 == 034
(The pic I linked to in my last post for the Porsche 911 had 015.)
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Just this week I discovered a bad accumulator on my '79 244 while trying to diagnose a hard-start when cold problem. When I removed the rubber hose from the accumulator some gas dribbled out, which told me the diaphragm was shot. Mine uses part # 0438170007 (Bosch) which I found on Ebay for $73 approx. w/free shipping. I'm going to install a new fuel pump too.
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HI VotX,
Does your fuel system have both the check valve on the main fuel pump and an accumulator?
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Yes, my '79 244 has both. My new pump arrived in the mail today, but still waiting on the new accumulator. My old pump still runs but the car sat for several years & had rust in the tank. Previous owner installed new tank & in-tank pump, & screen & also new filter (on firewall). Since I don't have any way of knowing how much rust & crud may have gone thru the pump I decided to get a new one. I was in the process of removing the old one when I discovered the bad diaphragm in the accumulator.
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posted by
someone claiming to be CB
on
Sun Aug 25 18:59 CST 2019 [ RELATED]
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Accumulator diagram
http://www.golf-pirelli.nl/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/16-1-6.png
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlist.com-vbulletin/332x480/bosch_fuel_accumulator_schematic_zps18410441_60508e5e9e5be7d919f54964466fb8bab49bbc07.jpg
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posted by
someone claiming to be CB
on
Sun Aug 25 19:10 CST 2019 [ RELATED]
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The bigger picture K-Jet
http://www.elec-intro.com/EX/05-15-01/KE-jetronik1.jpg
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Hi,
Boy, you have come up with another interesting question.
I don't know for sure, as I don't know if you can tell, if and when, they are working.
This should be a K-Jet mechanical system which mean it has a fuel distributor, a mechanical pressure regulator and pressure opened injectors.
On these systems,the engineers, had concerns over vapor bubbles developing in the lines and within the caverns of the metal encased fuel chambers of the aforementioned devices.
The accumulator is a spring loaded chamber that is more of an expansion tank or like a bladder tank used on water pumping wells that provide cycle off time and lower pressure startups.
The accumulator holds a volume in reserve more or less.
Any excess gasoline is shun by the fuel pressure regulator and the distributor working together.
Being your from New Mexico, I think you might be familiar with them in a ranch house setting.
If that's your life style.
A check valve is usually used close to the pumps themselves.
It is the case on our cars, as they are on the outlet to prevent drain or pressure back flows.
The in-tank pump is more a priming pump.
Well pumps can use a foot valve, at the well bottom and check valves in their systems, up top, to do the same thing. This does depend on the depth of the well, otherwise, the pump is usually a submersible.
The hardest time you can make a pump work is when it is under a full out flow situation. Moving all the fluid it can get as it will pull the most current. The formula is power is consumed in order to do work. If the flow is restricted the amperage drops.
The other part of making these pumps work hard is to "overheat it" with the lack of fluid passing through it, too cool it!
Of course, if the pumps internals are worn to cause the motor to drag excessively that's another matter. A motor is suppose to hum or whin but the rollers inside might be the sound difference. Much like a bearing goes out.
The accumulator has no moving parts by comparison.
The mass of fuel inside will have a noise damping effect and reduce the pulsating sound.
It would have to be empty or flat.
Maybe that is what you are experiencing?
I have a car with one of that age, but nothing excessive in noise and its on its second pump in 350k.
I wonder, if you could even buy one?
Putting on a full size filter, like on the LH's, might be the ticket in either case.
You would have the extra volume for both purposes, but ... not exactly as an engineer invisioned.
They don't use accumulators now and the pumps work the same way!
Like I said, who can tell?
You might be the first!
Let us know what you try to do!
Phil
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posted by
someone claiming to be NewMexico240
on
Sun Aug 25 18:31 CST 2019 [ RELATED]
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Hi Phil,
I did buy the correct pump from FCP a few weeks past.
It has, since installing it, had the hum that does change
sound, sometimes louder than other times. What it sounds
like is that it is pushing fuel but that there is pressure being
built up within the pump causing the pump motor to struggle
to turn.
The filter in this year model is in the engine bay right in front
of the driver. I installed a new filter using the bigger size from a later
model 240.
What the fuel pump sounds like is that it’s pressurized and having
a difficult time spinning.
Could it possibly be that the return hose from the accumulator to tank
has blockage? I’ll check that in the morning.
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there shouldn't be a return hose from the accum. if it has a hose, it's a leak line for the when the accum fails and the fuel gets to the tank. the hose was dropped some time later. the only fuel should be in the 2 threaded fitting, nowhere else outside the accum.
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posted by
someone claiming to be CB
on
Mon Aug 26 09:57 CST 2019 [ RELATED]
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Chuck here's some more images for Joseph
Diagram of where that rear outlet goes...Not a Fuel return.
https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-_v68hPGyMGI/VyHVFofdLBI/AAAAAAAAAag/KP5h3uWhqMgFdeY3WDsCj_rVOASIoQ6wwCKgB/s320/Fuel%2Baccumulator%2Bempty.jpg
Accum w/o rear outlet
https://thumbs3.ebaystatic.com/d/l225/m/mDBiGO0yEO4_c9LU65XuQCg.jpg
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CB - Thanks for the pictures of the workings of the accumulator.
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IDEA.
Can I just remove the accumulator and replace the
1980 main fuel pump with a mid-80's fuel pump that
has a CHECK VALVE on it?
I'm thinking that the accumulator is the same
monster as the check valve?
Give me your feedback.
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posted by
someone claiming to be CB
on
Thu Aug 29 14:44 CST 2019 [ RELATED]
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It has to be a Fuel Pump that is Spec'd for a Bosch K-Jet System.
In the Mid 80's and later fuel pumps Spec'd for the Bosch LH Systems put out Lower Pressure. Didn't you start a post/thread about which pump to buy a while back?
If you have a brand new Bosch FP for a K-Jet, then it comes with a check valve already fitted to the pump. It's at the front of the pump where the high presure line cnxtions are.
this is what it looks like.
https://www.ipdusa.com/products/8403/112927-volvo-fuel-pump-check-valve-240-k-jet-bosch-1583386514-1306990
Why would you even consider dropping more money on another FP?????????????????
Get a NEW accumulator.
These things are designed and built a certain way by German (Bosch) Engineers.
Good Grief
ATLANTA --- ATLANTA ---- ATLANTA
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CB -
I hear you loud and clear. I'll order the new accumulator.
This is the pump I have in there right now.
It is the correct pump for a 1980 244.
https://www.fcpeuro.com/products/audi-bmw-volkswagen-electric-fuel-pump-bosch-69430
Thanks for the push.
Joseph
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Hi,
I will reserve my thoughts only how critical that accumulator is and just wish you good luck!
Car talk said in the past, just turn the radio up louder!
(:)
Phil
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Did anyone explain why the check valve is critical?
Because the high-pressure pump is not inside a fuel tank with its inlet submerged, but fed by a low-pressure centrifugal lift pump, it needs a working check valve to prevent vapor lock of the main pump.
Without it, or if the spring in it has rusted away, the heat soaked into the lines and filter under the hood will expand the fuel and as the pressure drops when the car is shut off, the fuel will vaporize and force the liquid fuel backward through the main pump toward the tank, possibly emptying the main pump and feed hose of liquid fuel.
The unfortunate driver who stopped to refill her tank on a hot day may find the car unable to start until it cools for a long time.
It isn't all up to the spring in the accumulator to maintain rest pressure for the k-jet fuel system. The check valve must keep it there.
--
Art Benstein near Baltimore
"When I grew up, it was duck and cover! Now it's ... Tuck in them elbows, boys and girls!" - Phil
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posted by
someone claiming to be CB
on
Wed Sep 4 10:18 CST 2019 [ RELATED]
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“The details are irrelevant in terms of decision-making.”
Joe Biden on NPR Tues 9-3.
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posted by
someone claiming to be CB
on
Fri Aug 30 15:54 CST 2019 [ RELATED]
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Phil,
as you can see from this post
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
posted by NewMexico240 on Fri Aug 30 15:01 CST 2019
HI VotX,
Does your fuel system have both the check valve on the main fuel pump and an accumulator?
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
This person is going to continue to ask until he gets the answer that he wants to hear.
Trying here not to seem too harsh as I've been chastized here for not being sensitive enough in some of my ReplytoThisMessages on the BrickBoard. I'd really hate to be a college level professor-of-anything these days. I'd prob be forced to take The How Not to Trigger Students Training Classes, or worse lose my job.
Cause when it costs $60K a year X 4 for an Underegrad Degree...you can finish that thot.
"We seek the Truth, facts don't matter."
Uh Oh, there I went and did it again.
cheers.
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The accumulator provides a different function from that of a check valve. Its purpose is to smooth the pulses inherent in a roller cell pump's pressure wave by providing a sprung volume of incompressible liquid.
I have no idea just how significant the impact of an un-smoothed pump output could be on k-jet driveability.
Are you having trouble locating a replacement accumulator, and, is the old one leaking a significant amount of fuel past the diaphragm? As I understood it, the old model, with connection back to the third nipple on the tank bung, expected a limited life for the diaphragm and provided this safety net for the leakage. I'm not sure what improvement made in the construction provided the confidence to eliminate this nipple and hose, but it is clearly gone on the late version.
The effect of a holed diaphragm in the late model accumulator would just be the lack of smoothing, as if the accumulator was not used, rather than a fuel spill.
--
Art Benstein near Baltimore
Grandchildren are God's reward for not killing your own children.
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Hi Art,
Thanks for all the information you provide.
The Accumulator is not leaking. I am having
a uncomfortable buzz/hum from the main fuel
pump. I have replaced the main pump with
three good pumps (one brand new from FCP)
and the buzz continues. I'm under the
assumption that the accumulator is my problem.
I guess I can buy the accumulator from FCP
and if it does not fix the annoying buzz I
can sent it back for a full refund?
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"Always had a Hum/Buzz sound to it, louder than usual."
If it is louder than usual, but always had it, what is the usual you are comparing the hum or buzz to?
Hum and buzz are two different sounds as I describe their origins. Hum is good, buzz is bad, speaking of the main pump. Hum is a motor, buzz is pump cavitation.
My guess is the accumulator is not the source of the noise you perceive, but that's just a guess from far away. I'd be embarrassed to ask a supplier to take back a part I'd misdiagnosed, but putting myself in the role of the supplier, I might accept it as a cost of doing business. As the customer, my nature would be to chalk the cost of an unneeded replacement to educational expense. Might be worth it.
http://cleanflametrap.com/kjetvideo.mpg
--
Art Benstein near Baltimore
"The world is full of specialists that only think about one small aspect of a problem. To be a good systems engineer you have to look at the whole picture, all while keeping cost, service, and reliability in mind." - Paul Rako
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