Hello All,

When I got back to my '88 245 at the end of the day, it would start, then die. When it did start, it did not sound normal - very high revs, and died as soon as I took my foot off the pedal. I disconnected the AMM plug, and the car started, but the engine was racing, so I didn't want to drive it like that. Came back another day with a used AMM I purchased several years ago. I put that in and there was no change - could be bad of course. I ordered one from Ebay (seller named eccpp autoparts) that says it's new and it was only $35. Could that be?

Anyway, while I'm waiting for that one to arrive, is there anything else I could try? Also, in a search, I saw someone post that you're supposed to disconnect the battery when you replace or unplug the AMM. Is that true? Could I have zapped the second one I put in?

Thanks!
VV

I wouldn't hold my breath!

https://www.ebay.com/fdbk/feedback_profile/ultimatecomponents?filter=period:TWELVE_MONTHS,overall_rating:NEGATIVE&limit=25

I have purchased very new genuine Bosch AMM's at junk yards for for less than $30.

I must admit they are rare and not very available today.

Cheap chinese parts are a waste of time and money.

Dan

Hi Dan,

I agree with you on the JY getting rare and I have a bunch of the Bosch 016’s stored away and a couple of Bosch 007’s for my 1986.


I recently had a Bosch 002 go bad on my B23 1984 sedan. It’s a LH 1.0 system, I think.

I had one extra one stashed in the trunk from a JY for many years. I never tested it until I needed it and it worked just fine.
So I knew it was the AMM..
I could have left it like that but it was in “some” fear that it would be the very last one that I will ever find.
I think I read from Art posts, that a 007 can be used in place of a 002, if a harness is connector gets its pins moved around?
Since I have my backup, I didn’t want to guess on that!

I looked on line, like everyone else and just “shined on” any super cheap ones, especially, if I could not see a Bosch plate or a reputable rebuilders sticker.

I have had good luck with Python and Injection Labs.
The Python was in the car for like 20 years.
The Previous One Owner replaced the original one a couple years before they sold the whole car to me.
Their mechanic put it in, after I looked at the car for them, to say “I thought it might be the AMM.” I think he must have charged them a bunch every time he got them into the shop.

I was able to get another 002 from a “O’Reillys” chain store for $73 shipped to my “local store” and with a “lifetime warranty!” It said Injection Labs, so I bit!
With that, it went straight into the car and it’s staying there.
The backup, is again bubble wrapped and boxed up again in the trunk again!

It seems some people are trying out the IACValves with good results.
How much experience have you had with any “Chinese knock offs” to know how these are all a bad investment?

Curious minds want to know!

Phil

Good to know about Python and Injection Labs. One of the other posters mentioned a Japanese made one that worked well. This new cheap one I got didn't make a difference - acting the same, so it's probably one of the other issues mentioned. But it does run when the AMM is disconnected.

Your AMM needs to have the hot wire system. I've tried the other like you have and they are incorrect.

Well you got me there, I have had very little experience because I have always believed and been able to get good used Bosch parts at the junk yard! I'll spring forBosch electronics and pumps new if I have to.

On second thought I used some non Bosh cap and rotors that had aluminum contacts, a Walbro main fuel pump that lasted less than a year, and an Autzone remanufactured AMM that I returned to AZ for poor running.

I did have an 007 AMM on my 93 240 when I bought it! I didn't realize that until I drove it home some 800 miles later, and changed it out when I discovered the error.
Dan

An 88... Hm. That is before the OBD1 setup for LH2.4, I think. That might make it easier.

How high was the RPM? 3000? That could be a short in the engine coolant temperature sensor causing it to think that the engine is a million degrees below zero and needs a boatload of fuel to start.

If the engine speed was more like 1800 or 1500, I would check that the throttle is fully closing.

Most of the FAQ on the Throttle position sensor, and Idle Air Control (IAC) valve are similar across versions of LH2.2 and 2.4, although the manual screw for idle speed on my 84 244 was not something I ever understood.

I would start by checking that the throttle cable isn't hung up on something and that an intake tube hasn't been disconnected. Then I would check the idle control system, starting by disconnecting the electrical plug on the IAC, then by blocking the IAC inlet. The IAC could simply be stuck from being dirty.

The idle control system needs several things to work:
-Throttle Position switch (Only reads closed and Wide Open Throttle)
-Throttle linkage adjustment correct
-Idle Air Control valve works correctly.
-Manual idle speed adjustment (240s only?)
-Good info from AMM and Engine Coolant Temperature sensors

It seems unlikely that your AMM went bad and you got a replacement.


And as for a "new" one for $35, that's not possible. There is a wire made of (or coated with) platinum because it needs that to handle a heating cycle (after driving) that heats the wire up to 1500F. I doubt the platinum alone could be bought for $35.

I was just working on it today. Still in the parking lot at work. Connected to the AMM, it dies as soon as I take my foot off, but seems like it would idle at a normal rpm. With the AMM disconnected, it revs high, but when I put it in gear it runs pretty much like it would around town, but that's with my foot off the gas! so maybe 1800 or so like you suggested. I should be able to drive it the 8 miles home. There are only a couple of lights, where I'll have to keep the brakes on full to stop, or maybe put it into neutral if I have to.

Hi,

Let me get this correct, that it only runs, with the AMM connected, if you keep your foot working the pedal? You said you thought it was about 1,800 rpm, otherwise, it dies.
Can be considered the classic ailment.
This is what MAY have happened the first time you had the problem and got under the hood, to get it started.
This is a way a to experience sudden death by AMM.
It happens at any time and is why I carry a spare.

Now with it disconnected, it runs better but at a higher rpm?
Rather than it idle all by itself, in what’s called, a limp mode.
You are suggesting 1,800. Ouch!
That’s pretty tough to handle in an automatic, so it’s more about them brakes?
That is odd to me too? if your foot is off the gas?
How is it getting the extra air? I have to bone up on that detail a wee bit!

Limp mode is a program from the ECU that works with basic air supply throttle setting with a closed IAC valve.
Now if the IAC valve is stuck wide open, that’s another story!

This causes a lean situation with hard starting, until the throttle position switch shifts to run mode, or to full load and lengthens the injectors pulse widths. Then it hits and runs rough!
This can happen on the 1988 and earlier cars, because it’s a 2.2 LH system.
The IAC does not have an automatic return spring but relies on the ECU to power it closed and open.
Really dirty, maybe, but most likely worn out.
If not, A serious vacuum leak somewhere behind the AMM to get air!

History, for those working on becoming history, Like me! (:-)
In approximately 1989, the 2.4 LH went to a CPS and EKZ ignition system and the use of a “fail safe” IAC valve design.

Most likely, you have a bad and open IAC valve.
Have you noticed, if when first starting the car before these episodes, Does the engine rev up past normal idle and slow back down to it, all on its on?
It should!
This is a Turn key and start, no pedal system!
I bet it wasn’t and you got use to this behavior.
It’s an old car and I should give it a tune up, ... later!
This happens very slowly so you are not aware that it used to do this all for you.
Hmm, how long have you had the car, by the way?

AMM’s have a history too!
Early LH’s 1.0 or the Bosch 002 with transitions to 2.0 & 2.2.
The Bosch 007 have glitches.
Still “A”better one but prone to slight hiccups of instability, for me, on manuals transmissions, @low rpms.
My 1986 “MPG” model wagon is the only one to exhibit this behavior, it whole life.
I was told, while still under bumper to bumper Warranty, it was only in MPG model manuals.
Automatics no problem!
I’m still curious about that statement, since I know now, they had issues and lot revisions before and after.
Don’t know if a Bosch 016 can be used or if pinning changes?
I’m not much of a person to experiment with the working, only fixing when bad, kinda guy!

The Bosch 016 used near the end of the 240s LH 2.4 has been the even better or best.
There maybe, others, spread around in here omg the way and what’s connected to the LH 3.1?
I have no experience with them.
I have one K-Jet car too! It’s been super overall, luckily!
Keeping fresh fuel in them and drive them, is the secret!

Probably the best advice with any engine, till it’s worn out!
With people, same thing, different fuel!
(:)

Phil

Thanks everyone for all the info. I ended up getting AAA to tow it home. This may be the end of the line for it. I have my 1988 240 sedan which I've had since new, and this wagon I've had since 2000. But the driveway is crowded now with newer Hyundais, so it may be time to call it quits for the wagon. It's got other problems, like a fuel tank that leaks at the seam if it's too full. I always said I'd run it until I can't fix it myself without too much trouble!

Hi,

Well that is sad to hear, but ultimately it is yours.
Deterioration is a judgment within the eye of the beholder!

I tried to understand how the limp mode or something else was not working for you.
I only have one car with an automatic so I could not advise you on how to make it drivable.
The capability of feathering the throttle and the load on the engine with a manual shift vehicle is a nice tool in this case or snow.
I don’t like snow but have been caught in it.
This instance of happenstance was a stroke of real bad luck for you and the car.

The car has done by you well for a many a year and I hate to say this, but other cars will all be obsolete long before they get to go as far as they could. They are throw aways!
These cars, as you know, are REPAIRABLE!
Even the seats are and I still stashed some of them away.
I don’t plan on buying a new house just to replenish my living room either. (:-)

I am afraid the whole thing could be a loose wire in a connector or bad wire in the harness.
Rusty tanks or even crud and corrosion are the bane of anything man made!

The gas tank can be coated with epoxy or resealed by soldering.
Plastic tanks, who knows what can be done?
The old tank is not odd like plastic ones molded to fit like a crown on a tooth.
The dimensions are basically square. I bet a plastic one from a thrown away car and it’s shot interior, would still fit under there.

Wagons are utility vehicles and your gonna miss the length and height!
Of course, this does depend on ambition and some love left for the old girl!
Does Hyundai even make a wagon? Minivans are disappearing and SUV’s are for sports, like golf!

Sell it cheap to a robust mechanical inclined individual needing traveling and hauling space!
Selling point is a “A training aid, that serves!”
This will train another generation to be a more self reliant, along with developing their American Ingenuity! Thinking is something that has to grow within you!

Here is their project, to get it running again on a small budget of gasoline? (:-)
Oh, there is always the Brickboard information source.

Phil

Hi,

What is you're basis for determining the value of a AMM wire ?

I'm not 100% sure, but I think it's a tungsten wire coated with platinum and that is typically less than 5 microns thick. That's 5/1000 of a millimeter.

Word I'm getting from some refining sites is that there's not enough platinum in an AMM to make it worth the trouble of reclaiming.

New AMM units in both 016 and 020 have recently appeared on EBay for $35. I have not bought one, but I am currently running a $25. IAC (Isumo, Japan) in my 240 that compares to a $150. Bosch, and I can't tell the difference between the two. If your only complaint about the OP's AMM is that it's too cheap, then my inclination is to disregard it.

regards, Peter

I actually haven’t gotten that AMM yet. So I’ll soon find out. I’m surprised they’re still making them, unless it’s new old stock.

I can see a number of LH2.2 007 AMMs on Aliexpress for as low as $13 USD plus $12 shipping. These are the kinds of ones you’re seeing as new on Ebay for under $50. The “Bovdegt” knock off brand in particular has a completely different internal design, not platinum hot wire, which is what your ECU is programmed to respond to. Some pics don’t even show proper mounting studs. Only thing worse I can think of is an air flow sensor using a whirligig inside weather vane. Come on people, I buy lots of stuff direct from China to save a few bucks, but you are not getting anything near the value of a Bosch equivalent. I’ll resign my brickboard membership tomorrow if these are anywhere near as functional and reliable as a $270 original Volvo.
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Dave -still with 940's, prev 740/240/140/120 You'd think I'd have learned by now

Hi Dave,

This is the first one that came up when I searched 'Volvo 240 maf sensor' on Ebay. The same unit is available from multiple sellers.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/New-MAF-Mass-Air-Flow-Sensor-Meter-For-VOLVO-760-780-940-240-740/332346804152?fits=Model%3A240%7CMake%3AVolvo&epid=2181133614&_trkparms=ispr%3D1&hash=item4d6169c7b8:g:1fUAAOSw4MNZlQaL&amdata=enc%3AAQAFAAACcBaobrjLl8XobRIiIML1V4Imu%252Fn%252BzU5L90Z278x5ickkCrLl8erj3ATP5raQxjc%252F%252B3ufls3nllpw7f5b3T42s9erhhyGzTON7VOZIhthOqoaxXDe3nZK7az%252FgyP0eYMbxU71Sqj018%252F%252Beu4rA6tpmjxEAA0IJZknq%252B1jSlxANZGS8yH0mrIAOLcVLbfdOOt%252FIwyDQY0GcForqogROM%252Ba5Z8uDBia%252BXUfk8PfMd%252Brx4GuKkCOvxgJ0HvwGBHZgtL9378AJ1ZsMXdQgb4nq6ocOtCX5%252BJy5jSNlSe58vc%252Bfxdz4aiRHV88ZjOST13lOGKpZn%252F%252BMEWvDHK%252Fbq8WBqiYWCIgci9hjWj9gYV2fxr61qpIkUUskHpeZ4MI38emgB4wNgvtk6o4iDB4RRV1c7ml8xEOQ29Mh%252BadpMmqfuoGh0pbrc7YgbFntdDIn9ZvTZ6%252FUiUjAB6fMk%252F3R23Ju29RKC7MAr7uCwxFu%252FPokyiWMfPs%252FoOHIZzQHc2FMW3VAZupjGpIQ6AkX3GI%252Fhe%252BmRU1FTYJ7o%252FwD0PNJKg5gJj2NO6NiIUW7wbgc0Ax4rWiJGSAaXa0kx9q%252BcvIsSiPJvvwdVGz6iNdO%252FJC6qfd9h0mnEopJrH8ilYtN%252BK%252BPlQHFbvmIIc5vFIuJE5IJRWN95Zq2mQMo9TQx4R6VCINTRMR4QgQzbsasWd%252B14Q39C%252FhFVjs%252BqUhUjT5WsdslaHv3JLxuAOCTkipNSdmlAYpqsHm8ndKQhzcUepGsjZLCkP9qHHW2ZOPY2yboz28CuzbHD6hkBaisOQeOqRGe9d8Lph1SZ8bsu3tsSZpsmRYHeC0QXu7FQ%253D%253D%7Ccksum%3A33234680415279ed0320387344bc9ce7f0a2a6fb9496%7Campid%3APL_CLK%7Cclp%3A2334524

I must have done something wrong because the links are not usually this long.
It seems to work, but it might be easier to search Ebay yourself.

It appears to be an exact Bosch knock off, and not what you are describing. The claim in the description is that it is to OEM specs and uses the same platinum wire as is used in the original. EBay reports that this seller has sold 214 of these and has a 99.2% satisfaction rating on 127,000 transactions of his products.

I don't know the story on these or other aftermarket parts that show up on online retailers, but I wish I did. It may be that by using modern computer manufacturing processes, and without branding, advertising, technical support, and other business expenses, this is what the product is worth.

regards, Peter

Hi Peter,

Those Ebay listings still boggle my mind. The ones pictured on Ebay very much look like Bosch while many of the ones on Aliexpress look a bit different. Many don't indicate a Bosch number, just fitment, and often for a range of Volvos that spans both LH2.2 and LH2.4. There are perhaps a dozen or more listings from different Ebay sellers. Most ship from China, a few say they ship from within the USA, and international shipping is often free. Most indicate discounts for buying in quantity up to 4, yet this is not an item many would want in quantity. Each of the sellers has a good 99% or better rating. Many indicate they've got a fair number still available and have sold over a hundred, I gave up totalling at one thousand from all these stores. Just how many of these could you ever imagine selling in one year in the USA? They're only for LH2.2. Most of these products have a 5 star rating and when you read the reviews, they are all the exact same wording from the exact same countries!!! Something smells extremely fishy.

When you do get yours, please examine it closely and post back. I'll be most interested. Good luck.
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Dave -still with 940's, prev 740/240/140/120 You'd think I'd have learned by now

Well I got my new $35 AMM, shipped from CA. It's definitely new. I'm wondering if someone found a warehouse full of these housings, because I don't see how it could be worth it to manufacture these things, and there are so many sellers. Looking through the screens, it's not the same element as the original. Almost looks like a diode and a resistor in there. I'll try installing this over the weekend and see what happens.

I couldn't figure out how to attach photos - do they have to be in the Brickboard library first?

Yes, use the BrickPix gallery.

Reference Art Benstein's yellow infographic bulletproof includes in hgis post.

Use the absolute URL as shown there. Jarrod's BrickPix presents a relative URL, as in relative to the brickboard domain. Never works well.

All image hosting sites including Imgur sort of suck now.

If Volvo related, post to the BrickPix.

Woo.
--
Kittys are fuzzy and sometimes fluffy! Spokane, WA RULES!

They don't have to be. But if you don't have a hosting site it's probably the easiest way to do it.





These instructions courtesy of Art B., cleanflametrap.com


--
'80 DL 2 door, '89 DL Wagon, '15 XC70 T6 AWD

If your engine would start and with your foot on the pedal could run half decently even if it's at higher revs then it is not likely the AMM. A bad AMM generally means very poor running or a complete no-start. Disconnecting the AMM puts the ECU in "limp home" mode. For a no-start or extremely poor running, if disconnecting the AMM now allows starting or if running improves then it is the AMM, but that doesn't sound like your case. Go back to your original AMM for now as it was at least known to be working. You do not need to disconnect the battery to change the AMM. Just having the ignition off (not KP-II) is more than sufficient, even with the ignition on there's minimal chance of causing fatal damage, but it's still not a good idea. As for getting a new AMM for $35, well how do I politely says this, likely it's of very inferior quality and you'll be lucky if it even starts the engine, let alone runs it half properly. At best I'd consider it a spare. At worst it's a desk paperweight.

As for your racing engine and stall when you take your foot off the gas, it strikes me the ECU either has no idea it's supposed to be maintaining idle or it is totally unable to control idle when it tries to. For the former, think about a possible bad or disconnected TPS or a really dirty throttle plate area in the throttle body throat that doesn't allow the TPS to close. For the latter, think about a bad or possible disconnected IAC valve. My thoughts are leaning toward a bad IAC at the moment. Start by checking those areas. Good luck.
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Dave -still with 940's, prev 740/240/140/120 You'd think I'd have learned by now

I think what you describe is a complete failure of the air mass meter, but sometimes they fail in others ways. I had an '84 that ran and drove fine, except that it ran extremely rich (you could literally see droplets of gas coming out the tailpipe when you opened the throttle) and failed the smog. On a lark, we swapped out the AMM and it ran normally again.

I had an 84 that failed the exact same way - an -008 version, I think.

After replacing it, I ran seafoam and distilled water through it, and got about a tablespoon of loose soot spat on the ground under the tailpipe Haha

Hi, there is a difference with the AMM unplugged. Plugged in, it can only run with my foot down on the pedal, and unplugged, it will run without my foot on the pedal, but the idle is very high. I’m not familiar with the TPS or the IAC. I’ll check the Bentley manual. Thanks

A third thought I forgot to mention re. high idle (but not necessarily a racing idle) is the block temp sensor. If it’s failed, which really isn’t all that common, or if the wiring has become disconnected or damaged, then the ECU doesn’t know the appropriate idle rpm. Add that to your suspect list. Based on my latest reading of your symptoms, it’s like you’ve got both a bad AMM and IAC.
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Dave -still with 940's, prev 740/240/140/120 You'd think I'd have learned by now

I'll have to check that.

Yesterday I moved it to a quieter end of the parking lot at work. With the AMM still connected, I had to ride the gas and the brake together to keep from stalling - lots of bucking, I must have been a sight!

You might be able to get away with just a thorough cleaning of the IAC. Then afterwards check the operation of the TPS.
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Will I buy another Volvo??? We'll see....