|
|
|
1985 245
This is regarding my old 245 that now belongs to a good friend.
The car died, and when a start is attempted, it seems like it tries to fire and immediately dies.
I visited his place and the car today in an attempt to help him out. First I checked spark, and had my friend crank the starter. SPARK!! So I shot some starting fluid into the intake. Nothing.
I put a test light on the Coil + and had 12v, and on the Coil- and also had 12v. I had him crank again w/ the probe in the Coil -, and got 3 or 4 pulses (blinks) indicating that the module was grounding the (-) side of the coil and making a spark, and then NOTHING- just steady 12v (the module was NOT grounding the coil (-). I checked continuity of the harness to the Chrysler ignition module and all was good. Checked continuity between the distributor pick-up plug and the module and it was OK (except it didn't seen to correspond to the Bentley wiring precisely pin wise, but I could find a module wire that showed zero ohms for each wire at the other end of the harness).
Bentley suggested pulling the coil wire and testing for a spark when two of the pickup plug contacts (plug removed from distributor) were shorted together w/ a jumper wire to "simulate" the distributor pickup firing the module. Each time I made connection there was a HEALTHY spark, plus I could hear the fuel pump run for about 1/2-1 sec each time I made or broke the jumper wire.
Please second guess me before I order a new pickup coil for the distributor, which the test suggested to me is the problem.
Pickup BAD, Yea or Nea, or other suggestion please.
Thanks,
Bob
|
|
-
|
|
Hi Bob,
You say pickup coil. If it's an 85 Ti, it's a pickup coil.
However, if it's a non-turbo, it has Volvo/Chrysler ignition and you've got one more step before "replacing the pickup" as you can see in this troubleshooting flowchart. This step attempts to ensure you have power to the Hall effect sensor.
If it is the pickup, the usual trouble is the insulation has deteriorated from the three small wires inside the distributor. It isn't a job for the side of the road, or a neighbor's driveway without your usual complement of tools.
--
Art Benstein near Baltimore
"The one thing that I love on a long trip is the occasional smell of diesel. It is one odor I know doesn't get produced by my car."
|
|
-
|
|
|
Thanks, Art!
I didn't see that checking for 12v at the 3rd distributor pin in the Bentley, but I DID see it online on the Brickboard last night when I did a bunch of searches, and I WILL try it before oredring a new pick-up.
I DID check the continuity of the 3rd contact to the wire at the module maybe 1/8" from where the wire goes into the module plug (but I didn't check for voltage at either point).
My (now his) Bentley wiring diagram was slightly different than the vehicle (The wiring diagram only showed 6 pins at the module, but the module and the picture at the ignition chapter have 10 wires as I remember.
I called it a "pickup coil" but I do realize the 2.3 N/A uses the Chrysler system w/ a Hall Effect Sensor triggering function instead of the coil (and is appropriately priced HIGHER (cheapest I have found is $70 online unless you have a better source). If it's the distributor trigger, I will remove the battery connection on the vehicle (so the eng can't be rotated accidentally), mark relative positions of the distributor position, and the shaft-to-case position, remove the distributor and take it apart on the bench.
Since you mention a common failure is chaffed wires inside, maybe I will find something physical when I take the distributor apart that I can repair (solder/insulate/etc) since the unit DOES produce a few good sparks before going flat often when trying to start the car, so maybe continued rotation exacerbates a latent problem that is physical and not electronic. If the 3rd step DOES "confirm" a bad trigger, I will disassemble the distributor before ordering a replacement. Too bad you can't seem to buy JUST the electronic "cube" (looks to be about 1/2" on a side) mounted ON the larger assembly that costs $70. The 1985 740 2.3 DOES have the ability to buy the "cube" with pigtails you connect to the existing plate, but it shows it is incompatible with the 240 distributor. I HAD a 740 (an '89), but I don't remember the same Chrysler black ignition module like the '85 240 has, but that was a while ago and I could have forgotten or maybe by '89 they changed again.
One interesting point, the Control Modules ARE available (rebuilt for about $210), but they don't include the harness. The Bentley mentions DO NOT ATTEMPT to unplug the harness from the module or you WILL damage/destroy the fine-wire pins. There is a tab on the module harness to unplug it (I presume), so why the dire warning in Bentley? Any idea?
I live 45min from where the car now lives, so each "diagnostic trip" is a PITA but the guy's a good friend, but it looks like ONE MORE trip will isolate the fault (3rd step you sent along), then I can simply return home w/ the distributor and prepare it for (hopefully) the LAST trip to replace the "rebuilt" distributor and it will be fine. The alternative is using my tow dolly to get the thing to my place (maneuver and come-along the car backwards onto the dolly and lock the steering wheel and tow it backwards the 30mi to my place).
Interestingly I have used the backwards-on-that-tow dolly for RWD Volvos and Mercedes for more than 5000 miles of combined towing over the years and it works splendidly, though due to the front wheel caster I guess, it's possible to get some "trailer-sway" at higher Interstate speeds, but with a substantial tow vehicle and a gentle hand, it can be brought under control before it gets gnarly. That way i have avoided having to disconnect the driveshaft to tow, though in this case, towing in neutral (The 245 is a manual gearbox) at no more than 35mpg (the posted speed using back roads) I could likely get away towing with the rear wheels down on the pavement to avoid any sway w/o harming the transmission if I end up transporting it to my shop (where I have full equipment including a 2-post lift).
Thanks again, and when I work through the odyssey I will post what I find.
Bob
|
|
-
|
|
|
Oh, not just across town then.
Years ago I made a friend across town when he collected Volvos. Similar symptoms on one of those 85-88 cars using V/C ignition and LH2.2 fuel. Then, there were often more than one in the pick'n'pull near where I worked, so I brought a "tester" with me and verified the first distributor I pulled was OK so I could give him a drop-in solution on the way home from work. Yard to his house was an hour's drive, but both were along my hour and a half commute.
If you have any candidates for supplying a used distributor, I can re-post about the tester I made use of.
The dire warning about the pins on the computer comes because the pins and the sockets have too little contact tension as built originally. These V/C modules were used at least back in 82, so I think the service bulletin to add sleeves to the three contacts used for the low voltage signal from the Hall-effect pickup was in place well before 85. I think the sleeves are still available. Anyhow, it would be part of the suspect list in your case, where it is intermittent. Like the note in the chart, the V+ supply to the sensor is not directly battery, but either through a resistor or regulated like +5 volts. "Dim test lamp."
--
Art Benstein near Baltimore
Dave Taubler has 10 words for words:
Retronym: Cloth diaper, black-and-white TV, snail mail
Tmesis: fan-frickin-tastic
Capitonym: August, May, March, Polish
Bahuvrihi: graybeard, bonehead, lowlife (bahu (“much”) and vrihi (“rice”) meant to denote a wealthy person.)
Embolalia: um, you know, well, so, Foghorn Leghorn “well, there, I say, there she is, boy!”
Metonym: wheels, hoops, suits, bench, The Hill, The Crown, Washington
Mondegreen: “Whoa here she comes; watch out boy, she’ll cheer you up”, “s’cuse me while I kiss this guy”
Exonym: Frisco, Germany, Japan
Portmanteau: smog, spork, infotainment, Brangelina, Brexit
Slurvian: d'ja, y'all, jer maker, wanna
|
|
-
|
|
|
Thanks-
I called my friend today on the off chance he had a VOM Multimeter and he did.
I texted him a diagram of the far right terminal (plug release wire on top), and he got back to me saying with the ignition on (Position II I that is), that 3rd pin had 12.7 volts- battery voltage. One of the other pins had zero, and the other 4.7v (these 2 are the ones when shorted together produced a great spark).
So, it looks like the problem IS the distributor pickup assembly with some certainty.
I wonder if it's worth removing the old one and looking for mechanical faults, like a broken or chaffed wires leading from the sensor to the socket?
Bob
|
|
-
|
|
|
New question about the distributor-
Hopefully the image appears (or can be seen at link: https://www.screencast.com/t/9652bSCf9 or https://i.ibb.co/k8TR2mb/Volvo-Distributor.jpg)
I removed the trigger module to look for physical damage (bare or broken wire) prior to ordering a new unit for my friend. No damage noted.
So will order a new one.
Next question-
Under the module is what looks like a centrifugal advance mechanism, but there is only ONE spring, and the center shaft cannot rotate relative to the distributor shaft and gear, so despite LOOKING like a centrifugal advance it is locked in place by two pins.
The spring seems like it has no function.
Am I missing something?
Bob
|
|
-
|
|
|
Hi,
It doesn’t seem that you are missing a thing.
I’m thinking you are looking at a distributor that was in process of being phased out of production as the fuel management systems change throughout production years.
On the newest systems there is nothing under the rotor buttons anymore, it’s all is done electronically.
The K-Jets used both centrifugal weights and a vacuum motor driven sliding or rotating plate despite there were no breaker points used any longer.
The mechanical advances was either used on other Bosch car systems until they got the hall sensors Installed more universally.
I don’t see a vacuum diaphragm so actually the moving plate is gone.
Did you even have a plate to mount for the hall sensor on?
I have a 84 and a 86 car and haven’t paid that much attention to the inside of those.
This is because, I just don’t go digging, just to be looking.
Caps and buttons are about all I care to put my fingers down into.
It’s like testing for coldness of water with your feet while in a swimsuit.
I’m dressed for it, but jumping in is not my style!
(:-)
Phil
|
|
-
|
|
|
Yes, NOTHING movable down there.
It appears the cam is pinned to the lower shaft via the two pins that fit into the lower shaft plate (minute rotational slop only).
Just curious why there's a spring in there since nothing can shift unless it's to pre-load any possible play between the cam and the driveshaft (since the two pins can possibly have 1 deg play in it).
|
|
-
|
|
|
Hi,
I think you are correct and it’s the best guess I had as they changed over during production.
Phil
|
|
-
|
|
|
Another mystery-
My distributor # 0237 506 001 is not shown for ANY Volvo and my pickup shows not fitting any Volvo Bosch distributor either.
I think someone swapped out the whole distributor at some point.
I continued w/ a New Thread: "Correct Distributor Pickup for '85 245" on this Board
Bob
|
|
|
|
|
