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Currently, my starter wont crank. I put a jumper from the battery + side to terminal 50 and nothing happened. I've got 12v on terminal 30. From what I've read on related posts, I need a new starter. But, I may have another problem.
I took apart and cleaned the neutral safety switch. What seems odd are the voltage readings on the wire that goes to terminal 50. In switch position II, I get 12v when the shifter is in P and N and 0v in the other positions - is this correct? I also get 12v in position III (start) when in P and N - this makes sense. I would think the voltage would be zero in position II in P and N. Do I have multiple issues here?
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Thanks Art. Good explanation. Glad to learn I don't have another issue. Will go ahead with a starter swap.
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Hi TBE and Art,
Did you try to test the starter all by itself, like I suggested?
Art’s explanation of the voltage showing up from the ECU doesn’t make or break the starter functioning.
I’m not a Guru of understanding the purpose of the dotted line being a feedback circuit for the ECU but apparently that’s all it is from what Art says the current through it is very low.
I would suspect, using my limited knowledge, that the ECU might need some sort of signal feed back to adjust something within the ECU programming.
Technically, to me, battery voltage is virtually equivalent or not much on both sides during the cranking mode but that enough!
The ECU can be rather sophisticated and uses anything no matter how small!
When an engine is rolled over at cranking speed the timing should be retarded and even fuel mixture may need attention.
Art said to study the map and it could help us understand how these circuit works.
I need to be clued in on pin 5, 9 and 14 of what it’s doing or purpose to say might be “monitoring also?”
I see the diode and that capacitor going to ground.
From what I can tell the current flow is held very low.
The capacitors charge or the diode will be a slight voltage drop (.7) because of a diode.
Both those circuits draw from or through resistors as some sort of voltage differential or a clamping signal?
It’s my understanding that Capacitors can block voltages and/or act like an open circuit, when fully charged. This is especially good in smoothing out Ripples in noisy circuits by clipping and dumping current into the valleys. The term is filtering.
Jeez,
The more I write, the more “mixed up” I get! (:)
I’m still lost over a term used way back over the years of what a “pull up resistor” does.
It’s my understanding a resistor causes a reduction in current flow along with a voltage drop.
The Pull up? It does What? LOST!
It my understanding that a person can create voltage drops by using only diodes tied together in series so you get the same results as a resistor?
It’s a long story of why anyone would come up with this idea, but I have seen it work in a project this person, with knowledge equal to or less than mine, displayed it to me, just to dim a small light bulb.
Troubleshooting the starter is a lot easier than getting into those little black boxes, for me.):-)
You should pop the starter open and work with it for an education you can’t buy!
Even if it’s really bad, you flop it back together, it’s still a core!
Phil
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Hi Phil,
Sorry, I missed your earlier post. Yes, I tried the auxilary port with 12v from the battery..no luck.
Now I have the lovely task of removing the starter bolts. I've read all the posts on the various ways to accomplish. An initial go at it indicates it is going to be a challenge. I think the key will be to get the car jacked up high enough to get enough leverage on a sizable breaker bar.
THanks for your input.
Tom
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Notes on Starter Replacement
--
Art Benstein near Baltimore
Did you know actor Raymond Burr had a brother who was a lumberjack? His name was Tim.
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Good Morning Art!
Good job on those pictures.
It’s like waking up from a dream with a frame by frame synopsis!
This is much appreciated now and in the future.
Phil
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Thank you Phil. I see it is a little out of date. These days, all the Sears stores are gone, so referring to Craftsman tools to identify particulars that are within reach of most US readers may not be so helpful. Perhaps Harbor Freight. And, since getting a battery impact wrench, the air wrench doesn't get much use any more.
If you're seeing the underside of rusty cars in your dreams, you've got this hobby worse than I do, but then again, if I fall asleep under the car I'm likely to bang my forehead on something if suddenly awakened. With your lift, you've got plenty of headroom.
--
Art Benstein near Baltimore
"I have to use an 18 to 24 inch *1/2 inch drive extension* powering a flex-socket
-this is ONE INSTANCE where a "snap together chain" of universals and sockets
WILL NOT WORK you need to get ALL OF THE TORQUE you can into the bolt
and NOT 'soaked up by the chain of floppies'...drive THAT with an 18" cheater and
throw down on the friggin bolt...be CAREFUL...it will be 'tighter 'n crabs ass'
until just before it lets go - at which point it will *POP* and come loose carving
deep blue ripples in the tissues of your mind...Uh OH...flashback...." - TrickMick
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re: Craftsman Tools.
the brand still exists. HD, ACE Hardware .... stuff is still there with a new Corp 'sponsor'
Harbor Frt---bought a 'Chicago' electric Impactttt Wrench---- could not release those Starter nuts. Ended up getting it loose with 'me mus--kels'.
Aided by a can of spinach.
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Hi,
I just went through of a somewhat learning experience about Craftsman tools and I’m looking forward to learning more!
I had borrowed and broke a 1/2” ratchet from a neighbor friend to work on my Motorhome.
It was from his large set, that’s about 40 years old and was hardly used since he changed careers.
He got totally away from being a mechanic, when all his professional heavy truck tools were stolen during the transition!
Anyway, He has kept the rest of the set as they all say made in the USA!
The two smaller ones were already broken and just spun! The internals must be really flaky but he warned me!
Here is My own personal dilemma, if I borrow something, I like returning it in as good or better condition than it was when I got it! Even if it’s just the case it’s cleaner or items oiled!
I went to Ace with my southern neighbors 1/2 ratchet, to ask about a replacement.
Ace hardware does sell Craftsman tools but they do not take any responsibility for the lifetime warranty.
I was told, by them or by an hourly Ace associate representative of the tool department that Lowe’s has bought “all” the rights to the Craftsman name, lock stock and barrel!
Ace sells them just like it’s a franchised outlet!
IMO, Their warranties are changing but the past or future is in flux!
IMO, the law says the past still counts even though the “brand” changes hands!
Same with parts stores!
He told me that they will offer to look up the number on a tool list and cross it over to a tool presently made and (if) it’s covered under the warranty you get it!
Here is a kicker, that he added in the conversation ... “most of the time!”
That’s why I said, “Flux” so watch out on what you buy!
Years ago Craftsman sold tools with the words “Companion” on them. No warranties!
So the path for me is, there are two Lowe’s about 40-45 miles away in two different directions, so I will have to plan a day to go to one, while doing other goodie shopping.
With COVID still lurking, it dampens the urgency to “bop around” in populations!
If I learn or get anything, I will have to get back to everyone with another updated post!
Phil
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I had a 3/8' Craftsman ratchet fail at the mechanism, once.
I took it to the Sears store, and they said sure we can fix it.
They had a kit, undid the snap ring that held the ratcheting mechanism in place, popped it out and put in the new one from the kit.
I just watched and really can't remember exactly how he did what he did.
So maybe you should try to get one of those 'kits'
The only Craftsman lifetime wrench that I got replaced under warranty was a 10mm open end that I had abused --- they just gave me another one.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Art---on buying the set.
One of the most irritating Sears moments.
I needed a small metric wrench. I went to Sears, they did not have that size as an individual wrench, I had to buy the set.
At the checkout counter there was a jar of small metric and Standard wrenches...and there in that jar was the size I needed.
I picked one out, held it up and asked the clerk if I could just buy this single wrench.
He said NO, those are not for sale, they are for Warrantee Exchanges.
I said your kidding right. You can't sell me one of them. He said no, I can't.
I said what?? and added, no wonder Sears is going out of business.
He still wouldn't sell me the single wrench.
Employee of the Month????
PS: that can made me wonder --- how was it that I was always attracted to 'slim' types of the opposite sex. (covid Lock-U-Down soul searching with Winter's Last Jab hahah)
Thanks to you, I just came up with the answer: Olive Oil
https://p7.hiclipart.com/preview/1007/814/481/popeye-rush-for-spinach-olive-oyl-bluto-popeye-village-popeye.jpg
My brain now has space to ponder more imortant questions. Like will that 80 Green Machine fire up after..X..years---giving a win to the K-Jet system bullet-proofness.
I'm sure I'll be visiting Clean the Trap site.
Hoppy Easter
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Good news to hear someone is honoring the lifetime deal. I've used it maybe half a dozen times in my lifetime. Not so good is the selection.
In most every store I've been in Sears had I'd guess 5x the floor space dedicated to automotive Craftsman. Lowes has a few common tools individually sold, but most of their space is occupied by tool kits. Like HF, if you want a particular line wrench on a Sunday afternoon, buy 7 in a kit.
--
Art Benstein near Baltimore
"A woman is like a tea bag. You don't know how strong she is until she's in hot water."
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Hi,
Yes cracking the bolts loose for the first since the car was made can be brutal!
A Swedish fellow, with huge arms, must have put them in!
I don’t put them back that tight and who knows you may be lucky that the starter or transmission has been out for a clutch or rear main seal in automatics.
It takes a long extension with one universal joint to get to the bolts. I like getting all the way back to the rear of the transmission area for the straightest shot!
The fewer connections of extensions is best, especially, if you have access to an air impact.
The rattle gun doesn’t like shaky or loose joints.
I think I have used one 16” extension and the universal joint and might even add another six or twelve inch! I think I’m under the drivers seat!
Keep a pipe cheater idea laying in stand by for the ratchet handle if you don’t have a breaker bar!
You are right to think about leverage and with the long reach you can keep turningh the bolt smoothly.
Sorry to hear that the starter didn’t roll over or at least click to engage the electric motor.
Putting power straight to the big cable nut will spin the motor and then you will know it’s only the solenoid issue of it not making up internally.
If you didn’t get even a click from the solenoid, then, it could be inside the coil itself.
There is no use in buying a new solenoid for what that want for just one of them retail!
I just remembered one more thing too!
Make sure you have the solenoid terminals hooked up correctly.
There are two of them but the power has to go only through the right one or nothing happens!
I want to say it’s polarity sensitive or the way it goes through the motor windings to ground?
This is why I suggest testing the motor itself.
Enjoy the task as well as you can!
Phil
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Hi,
This is what you need thanks to Art Benstein’s fantastic postings.
I’m surprised it not on his site cleanflametrap.com. I’m sure he has his reasons for leaving it on the BB, open to public, forum by itself.
I did the quick search car looking thing up above on the main pages.
https://www.brickboard.com/RWD/volvo/1653868/220/240/260/280/actual_wiring_diagram.html
It a good graphic showing the various conditions of start mode through various safeties
You will notice a service socket (B) that comes on these cars.
That is, except the 1993 car as it was removed as we are finding out!
It is located near middle of the firewall and close to dipstick area. It’s an open ended female socket all by its lonesome.
Just make sure, you have whichever transmission you have, that’s in Neutral or Park.
All you have to do is run a jumper wire directly from the battery’s positive post to the socket.
Then the solenoid will pull in.
When this happens, the solenoid applies power to the actual motor after the Bendix drive gear engages the flywheel.
This is the same as turning the key to position three but it bypass all the safety switches and even the ignition switch. A lot easier that doing anything from the under side or the topside!
The starter will only crank the engine and will not start since the ignition key is off!
If proofs the starter unit only!
If the ignition key is in position “two” the car should start, if you need that?
I have found many times that the solenoid has an internal problem with its stroking distance.
It’s just .050 off, just enough to make the main contacts inside close or make up together or not, intermittently!
It’s a manufacturing tolerance thing, that shows up after many years of use, In most cases!
This sell several rebuilds when they are still in good shape!
I go in there and tweak the stroke rod, in the solenoids core and they work fine after that!
I have written this up before over the recent years.
Much like Art has posted these diagrams before, to help out!
We enhance them it seems and write them shorter or longer!
Each slightly different, depending on our moods and time, to entertain ourselves or forum lovers!
There it IS,
If you have more questions, I’m sure many answers to most topics are here on this board someplace!
Phil
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