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The Brick Board has been great in guiding me through the diagnostics on how to determine if I have a bad starter followed by the process to remove that nasty top bolt on the old starter (BTW - completed without an impact wrench, I have the bruises to show for it).
New starter is in and working great, but......not with out any problems.
Let me start by saying the car sat for 4 months before I could find time to replace the starter.
Once the new Bosch starter was in, turning the key resulted in a loud clunk but the engine didn't crank. I tried this several times with the same result. It sounded like the starter was trying to engage, but couldn't.
Becasue the car sat for 4 months, I thought possible the battery had drained so I put it on a charger and got the same results. I took the battery to NAPA to be tested. Battery is good with 700 cranking amps.
I had previously inspected the positive cable to the starter and it appeared to be in good shape. I looked for grounding wires to the block and found one going from the firewall to the valve cover. I disconnected it and cleaned it and reconnected it.
I tried to start it again and got clunks on three succesive tries. But on the fourth try, the engine cranked and the volvo started.
I can't figure out what is going on here and if I still have a problem I will run into again. Do I have a bad starter or an electrical issue not fully solved? Could letting the car sit for 4 months have anything to do with it?
Tom
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Hello,
Its possible that the engine was partially seized.
With your new starter and charged up battery, it should started up nicely after those repairs.
When the car sits for a long time some internal engine parts are without due lubrication (I wanted to say some internal rust may have been formed but Volvo red block don't usually do that in 4 months).
Test the engine to see if its easy to turn. Take a short (1 foot) rachet wrench equipped with 25mm socket (for crank bolt) and try to turn the engine clockwise manually. See if you needed much effort to do that. I don't have any unit of measurement of torque/strength to offer but it should be smooth and easy.
You might be due for oil change too..
Amarin.
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Amarin,
I think you are rigth about the engine being partially seized. Each time I tried to start it, it seemed like the starter made a strong attempt to engage but there was too much resistence to allow it to crank. After numerous attempts over a couple of days it finally turned over. Sounds crazy but I think that is what happened. Nice to hear it from someone else.
Tom
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Hi again Tom,
You are getting good information from the other posters on here and you are wise to absorb any wisdom on here!
More than a few of us have seen different scenarios of how the electromechanics can play out on a car.
I would like to correct one slight misstatement on battery voltage when cranking the engine.
The overall system voltage will drop to around nine volts under such a load.
If those who have dash mounted volt meters or a data holding DVM will see this. The dash meter just plummets to the left and “depending on the battery” you can see the dome light dim or even flicker out!
You can try using your meter to look for high resistance of you cables while cranking.
You place both leads on the same sides of the same cable!
Expect to see zero voltage reading!
It should stay that way during cranking or be a very very low reading during the crank.
If the numbers go up, to the right of the decimal point, as it’s an exponential reading of resistances. The bad connection will cause the voltmeter to start picking up that the reading is now going across from pole to pole of the battery or it “posts,” as we called them.
As we know a post to post reading tells us the full battery voltage reading.
So any number above zeros, is in actuality a resistance reading!
As the another poster has stated, this will cause the wire to warm up!
Depending on the amount o resistance, you would have to be very fast to “catch it,”
IMO, ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE with GREMLINS, (:-)
As far as the tightness of the engine the turning of the crankshaft, that Amarin suggests is a normal test of confidence to get a “feel” of the engine and it’s compression cycles if the plugs are left in.
With the plugs out, a torque wrench reading should be of a low foot poundage.
There may be specifications published someplace but I do not know them.
Due to the sizes of engines this does vary, naturally!
So the “Feel,” is a subjective matter of what you think the starter can turn!
The next thing that affects the starter more and that would be a problem with the flywheel teeth especially on some automatic transmissions. I have no data to “conjure” up on the 240’s having many issues with this though?
It may be possible that there is some damage with them, if you are truly having an engagement problem!
The only way you can see those is through the starter mounting hole. Any damage would be to the leading edge of the teeth on the starters side.
If they are mushed or chipped beyond their normal leading machined edging there could be something up!
Rotate the engine to get a view around the periphery for any spot that may be worse.
On Ford vehicles, they are known to change up starter tooth mesh number count. Mostly, I have heard it on their diesel truck lines. This during midstream production runs in the past.
A One tooth change in count can raise hell with rotation into the pitch depth or cause an immediate lock up!
Just pull aside and talk to an Auto Electric shop that rebuilds units and you will see their heads wobble in agreement!
Luckily Volvos have stayed really standard over the years, even though, the electric motor size changed!
This can cause a shift in this area.
Your motor should be the small motor type than that of earlier models that spun over slower in it sound it makes!
Maybe something is wrong around this.
How long have you owned this car?
Phil
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Hi Phil,
All good diagnostic information to know. Right now, the car is starting with no issues at all. It cranks faster now than ever.
I have had the current 240 for 28 years. Over the last 10 years it has not been driven very much. I had a 76 240 and an 84 245. I have owned a 240 continously for 43 years. I really like the car and being able to work on it and keep it going. Without all the good advice from the community on Brick Board, I am not sure I would still have the car.
Tom
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Hi Tom,
You only have me beat by couple years as I started out with a 1978 GT. I still have it, along with five others! Once I found a good thing I kept with it.
I Still have most everything I ever purchased in my youth.
My wife is my original and still with me too!
But I think I'm still making payments, on some sort of installment plan, for her, as that involved a license too!
One thing though, I never named my cars a "he" or a "she" or something in between!
Guess today, they would call it "staying straight!"
With our ages upon us and no children, neither of us needed any mental confusion!
My father-in-law had six kids and he use to run through a list of names verbally, to get to mine!
(:)::(:) we sure dodged a box of bullets with that decision!
I thought to ask that question of about how long you had the car, just because I ran down the rabbit hole!
I was over thinking that someone may have install a wrong starter and messed up something internally?
Glad to hear that it's all working great for you now!
Yes, the Brickboard has been around me since retiring in 2005@ 56
Sure has helped to pass some idle moments, after I found it.
Phil
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A bad crimp on positive or negative cable will generate heat. Hold the starting position ( kpIII ) for 5 seconds, get out of the car and check for a hot connecton at battery, starter bolt, and at the engine block.
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The problem could be the solenoid, starter motor, battery or connections. The solenoid is energized by the small wire and connects the starter battery terminal to the starter motor. It also engages the starter gear to the fly wheel. Those are the clicks you hear. Also, note the starter's ground connection includes the starter case to engine, engine to chassis, and chassis to battery negative terminal and must carry the same high current as the positive path.
If you can, connect your meter to the starter's battery terminal and the starter case. There should be about 11-12V when the starter cranks the engine or 12V when it does not. The voltage should drop only a little when cranking and indicates a good battery and connections. A full 12V when the starter does not crank may indicate a bad solenoid.
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Hi Tom,
In reading over your post and getting in on the time lines of how the gremlin is showing it’s face, I can only think you have an issue with the (3) major cables from the battery being the “largest” issue.
You stated you had the same problem 4 months ago but left the car parked.
Leaving the battery to sit for so long didn’t help matters either because as a battery sits in can discharge within its self.
During this time the plates sulfate and flake because the electrolyte never stops working!
This is an aging process, as in humans, but it cannot wash away like our skin and grow new ones.
It theses flakes of oxidation that disrupts battery pathways of conduction or short the bottom of a cell.
It’s overall life is gradually shorten by a year or two or until it will not ever get back to it’s full capacity and lifespan.
You’ll never know how much life it loses unless you treat a fleet of similar batteries with different maintenance routines. This I have done this by comparing within my other cars or noting the conditions the newer “used” cars I have purchased.
It just a game I have played in my quirky life! (:-)
I have rules about how long I will let any battery sit without a float charger on it or not being used on a regular basis!
Continuous use, is the best way to treat a battery or the whole car for that matter!
During this time those battery cables and connections on the car didn’t get any better but only worse with corrosion.
You stated the starter clunked but didn’t spin the motor. That was the Bendix mechanism doing the engagement thing. Some call it a clank or click and say it, thunks!
The old starter should have been doing that, but since then, you have moved those major cables and so, in saying that, I think you might have located the problem and had it in your hands.
The starter depends more on a great “ground” because it runs through the engine block, but this doesn’t excuse the positive cable by any means.
Volvos have two separate grounds on the battery post but there is two paths on the positive as well, but one is tiny by or in comparison, go figure?
Now, the alternator is also a separate but connected together and remote device that has an important role in all of this.
It has a small ground wire but the big positive cable runs through the a connection on the starter’s stud!
So you can have a problem with the alternator and not the starter and vice versa!
So you need to inspect the whole works on the positive side just like the negative side!
The terminal ends can go bad or green, a little ways back under the insulation!
Especially, if nearby a discharging battery, as it vapors out a lot and more so with age!
This alternator is the, or a more common ailment and get less noticed, that is, until the car doesn’t crank!
Keep an eye on your charging voltages under various loads while driving.
It’s best to have a dash meter, the fills your other eye, that’s not watching the fuel and water temperature gauges. (:).
Just be glad your not flying airplanes as those machines require constant scanning of instruments!
Hope this helps keep you busy until the car becomes dependable again!
Phil
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