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Apologies in advance for my long-windedness, your patience and expertise is appreciated.
Background: 93 244, LH2.4, 200,000+ miles. Car was originally an auto but I swapped in an M47. Shift interlock stuff was completely removed and the neutral safety switch was appropriately jumpered.
Occasionally the car randomly just wouldn't start. Everything looked fine (battery voltage, etc), but turning the key wouldn't do anything. And then after a while it'd start right up like nothing happened. After a couple of times I realized that wiggling the carpet around the shifter fixed the issue. No problem, my neutral safety switch jumper must have a bad crimp, right? Wrong! :(
Yesterday it finally quit and no amount of carpet-wiggling would fix it. I pulled the kick panel out and took a look. My jumper is fine, no resistance across it. But when I turn the key I only saw about 11.6 volts on both sides of the jumper. A little later it started working again, and I saw ~12.5v at the jumper. Would that 1 volt-ish difference prevent the starter from engaging? If I jump the starter terminal to the positive battery post it starts right up.
The red wire going to the ignition switch shows full battery voltage (~12.5v), but I couldn't see in there to figure out how to measure the voltage on the pink wire where it comes out of the ignition switch. Is this a common failure mode for an ignition switch? Does it make sense for me to plunk down my hard earned cash on a new switch without further investigating if there is some issue between it and my jumper that might be causing the voltage drop?
And that would mean my temporary carpet-wiggling fix was a red herring the whole time, which is weird.
Any thoughts or advice is welcomed!
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Nobody has mentioned checking the computer codes via the 3 red lights. You might want to give it a try. Replacing the switch unit on the back of the ignition switch might be indicated. It's just held on by a couple of screws. It does have to be correct one for the car but there aren't too many versions.
The early comments about fixing it by moving the carpets could also point to the gearbox inhibitor switch coming a bit loose and going out of adjustment. Not uncommon.
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Hi,
I may have missed it, but have you checked for voltage at the disconnected terminal of the yellow/blue wire that connects to the solenoid with the key in position 3 ?
If you do have voltage there and no action but it will start with a jumper, it may be the terminal itself. It's prone to corrosion and is hidden inside a black plastic box.
I was in the same situation a few years ago and that is where I found the fault.
Peter
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I had similar issue last year plus earlier than that. When the ignition wouldn't work, I started the car by first shorting the starter's solenoid terminals. Then the ignition would work. A few days later would be uneventful (started normally) then it happened again.
It turned out to be a crack at the starter's positive terminal. The crack could be seen when the starter's power cables are removed. So there must be some internal break in electrical connection. Replaced with new starter and problem solved till this day.
Hope this helps,
Amarin.
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Hi there Amarin!
Catching up on this threads posts and it’s a toss up between the ignition switch or solenoid.
I haven’t seen any cracks in the insulator housing of any solenoids that I have worked on.
Yes, I do believe that could be a problem, that can easily be “started” (:) with over tightening the nut on that post and therefore twisting it in the material or stressing it for failure on down the road.
I will keep a sharper eye out for that.
When I reset the stroke of the plunger in the solenoid, I do it because the contact bar inside there is spring loaded.
To me, the bar doesn’t get pushed firmly enough and any arcing.
Over the long haul this just finally wins.
I opened one to find this out so my adjustment is more a preventative than a repair.
My adjustment only only makes the stroke close up the spring more.
You cannot open the housing as it’s crimped together from the factory to see this but with an ohmmeter you can tell when the contacts make and get the extra holding power to set the contacts more firm.
I did opened an overdrive solenoid, in 1978, to clean it. I welded another metal ring to get it back together. I know now, that just washing them in solvent under power pulses fixes them.
Used Starters and solenoids are easier to find, so I don’t bother considering that work.
These starters are very reliable so I don’t keep that many spares.
As CBee says, things changed on the switch in 1990 and I didn’t know that.
In thinking, there must have been was group of engineers that were “monkeying” around with the wiring or components to fit Volvos other models and testing their capabilities!
I know something about monkeys because I visited a Singapore tourist attraction about twenty years ago. Singapore is close to you so you might enjoy this story.
These monkeys were a very testy bunch, that would charge up on you while showing their teeth wanting food or just to harass. We were entertainment!
We were were told not to feed them but somebody had!
I actually had to stand between them and my wife and challenge the leader to make them all back up!
They sensed her fear, from all of her yelling and this one boy was a show off!
I brought this up because you can get competition “dialed up” by providing challenges to streamline designs of past or present or future! It keeps boredom down too!
The 240 was in production for a long time!
Imagine how it was in the engineering room by 1993.
Phil
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Hi again Phil! We meet in another thread!
Yes, I believe you have visited the Singaporean Botanical Garden. We have one here too in Penang, a small northern state in the peninsular. I have been there. There are some monkeys too harassing people for food. People do feed them for fun until they demand more and start chasing. Now people learned to walk away quickly, they're not everywhere in the garden.
Some of us Malaysians know another meaning of "monkeying" around. These are a group of people who behaved like monkeys. How do you explain public nude behavior? Monkeys don't normally wear any clothing. Some religious clerics had linked them to the people who broke their covenant with God on Sabbath day. They were cursed into monkeys! Of course they still look humans but different behavior. These could be their descendants today.
Apart from finding that crack at the starter's solenoid I don't have any past issues with Volvo starters. They operated reliably. And they really lasted long. The first starter was up to 15 years in operation. That one was a Nippondenso (before company became Denso). The last one was Bosch and now another Bosch. Three starters so far in this car's 25 years history. And I avoid refurbished ones.
Till then take care, stay safe, stay alive!
Amarin.
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Phil
RPR catalog lists ---73 to 87 pn 1212421.
88-93: pn same TO 1989
pn 1324628 --- 1990 forward.
This pn1324628 also applies to the 740 series 1985 thru 1992 ----
AND
940 series 91 and 92-
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Hi there gentlemen!
You fellows are all over thing phenomenon and I too are glad to see it because I just had the same thing happen to my 1993 last Tuesday.
The difference I had was the key turning engaged the solenoid or something that my dash lights went out completely and the voltmeter plummeted all the way to the left. I turned it several times and nothing.
Unfortunately I wasn’t a parking lot at another distant Walmart, 50 miles from home, doing shopping. Made several stops without any kind of slow turning over beforehand as a warning.
So I called AAA and waited for an hour. AAA spells wait with Three “A’s”. WAAAIT.
He shows up, put the “VIN” in his battery gadget and says it’s looks fine but no load test probably because he didn’t want to pull out any extra juice.
The up the battery that shows normal voltage as so does my voltmeter.
Tells me to crank it and it spins over three times in a row without any hesitation what so ever!
Everything checks out fine for charging except he thought he saw a voltage spike once as a fluke he says? The machine says to check the cables without any other explanation. He was mystified as well! Just suggested I get them looked into, bah, bah, bah.
I have yet to do that and a day and half later of sitting I fired it up twice in concession. Battery came right back up to 12.65v within a few moments.
Now a side note is the battery is a AGM Die Hard that came with the car three or four years ago and last year it sat with a Battery Tender on it for ten months due to the Covid-19 mess. I stayed away in a safer county. I can not find a battery age date on it anywhere! Great?
Note this also, This was done to two cars but the other one has a normal flooded cell battery. Both cars have worked flawlessly for the last two months.
I don’t want to blame long term charging storage either. Even though stratification can happen as a possibility but I have not seen exactly what that means.
Stratification does not happen if a battery is used regularly as the discharging and charging stirs things.
So now I think I might have to stir the cables and physically man handle them!
I will check for corrosion as I get around to checking voltage drops and such across the one side as well!. AAA has seen a lot more battery jumps that I have!
By the way starting in 1992 the “starter jumping wire” was removed from the firewalls.
I guess when they move the under the hood fuse to the cabin panel somewhere, it got paid for by eliminating the extra handy wire to the starter.
What Dave Stevens says about the starter solenoid is a very good possibility as I have written on my modification to them.
Trouble is, I don’t remember if I have done this to this car or not. It something I rather do on my car lift at the other house.
I might have to find my piece of flat steel bar, that’s covered in plastic tape, to smack the solenoid!
Too many cars, not enough memory!
I will try to be watching this thread closely, as apparently, there is something going on with this intermittent issue besides, what I think it WAS in it’s entirety!
A catchphrase might be ...
Oh that 1993 year, with all of “its” changes, “started” even earlier!
(:-)
Phil
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If it's intermittent and the key doesn't do anything, be suspicious of your starter motor or starter solenoid. When it won't turn over, pop the hood and with a length of wood (broom handle, 2x2, whatever) rap solidly on the starter solenoid a number of times. Alternatively, crawl underneath and beat on the starter with a hard mallet. Without touching anything else, if it now cranks then you know where the problem lies. If you suspect the ignition switch or shift interlock then short the starter motor terminals to see if it now kicks.
--
Dave -still with 940's, prev 740/240/140/120 You'd think I'd have learned by now
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So far it seems to be the case that jumpering straight to the battery will engage the starter every time, but turning the key is intermittent (and seemingly now completely dead). That said, I only did it a couple of times, so it's entirely possible it was a fluke. I'll need to just try it over and over again a few times.
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my 1987 manual trans.
I had a similar issue. all the symptoms that you described. I could get it to start with the screw driver shorting method on the solenoid posts.
It got to the point that it would only start with the key first thing in the morning. It would fail to start after driving --- I assumed the heat caused the solenoid to intermittently fail.
Since it was the original starter, I assumed it was the solenoid gone bad/intermittent. I got a rebuilt and installed. Much to my chagrin it wouldn't start with the key.
I pulled the ignition switch, swaping it with another known one. The key start worked and has since it has never failed to start.
I got a Used Ign Switch to replace the donor from those guys in Atlanta---$40
Call/email them --- $40 is cheaper than going bald from pulling out your hair and is not really 'throwing money at the problem'.
I think the switch got changed to a different one in the 90's--not sure what years, but the 80's IgnSwitch won't work in a 93
So be sure to tell them the Year.
Voluparts
http://www.voluparts.com/
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The same voltage on both sides of the jumper means its resistance is very low. That's what you want and rules out a problem with it. But make sure it's a solid connection that doesn't change when moved around.
I can't imagine a voltage drop of just 1 V to be enough to prevent the starter from engaging, but who knows? Is there any sound when you turn the key and the starter fails to engage?
You could do some further investigation before spending your money.
Since starting from the starter terminal works fine, I would measure the voltage on that point with respect to ground (negative battery terminal) and repeatedly try to start the engine using the ignition switch.
If there's no voltage or a very low one when the starter fails to engage, I'd suspect the ignition switch. Perhaps wiggling the key (not the carpet) helps? If so, definitely the iginition switch.
Linked below is a good document to have when trying to find electrical faults in a 200-series.
www.v8volvo.se/mekartips/volvo/Filer%20240/Elsystem.pdf
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When it's not starting there is absolutely no effect when turning the key. No lights dim, no sounds from the starter, nothing. All you hear is the fuel pump spinning up when you reach the run position (at least I think that's what the buzzing is), but not a thing when you turn it to the start position.
I didn't know about the terminal on the firewall, I was running a wire straight from the battery post to the starter. Now that I know the terminal is there it will make measuring the voltage a little easier.
If I'm reading that diagram correctly (and assuming the wiring is in decent condition), the voltage on that terminal should be what's coming out of the ignition switch, correct?
That document is incredibly helpful, btw.
Thanks!
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You read the diagram correctly.
Referring to page 29 of the document, you can see socket "B" gets energized the moment the key is turned to III.
Volvo calls it "service socket for starting engine", so its main function would have been to enable mechanics to crank the engine from the engine bay. But you can use it to conveniently measure the voltage from the ignition switch while starting.
What's that buzzing sound like?
The fuel pumps should only be heard for a second or so when switching on the ignition and then stop, and it's more like whirring than buzzing. They shouldn't start running again until the engine cranks.
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That's exactly it, just a second of buzzing.
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OK, that sounds good. It's the fuel pumps pressurizing the system.
When it's more of a buzz than a whir, that might mean the pump under the car has been replaced with an aftermarket non-Bosch item or the pump in the tank has failed (especially audible when the tank is less than half full). It's not related to your starting problem, but a thing that needs to be checked later.
Right now, your symptoms seem to point to a failed iginition switch. This should be easily confirmed by measuring the voltage on the service socket hanging there on the firewall (more on that here).
In the mean time several other failure modes have been suggested in this thread ranging from broken igintion switches, failed solenoids to corroded connections.
The service socket sits right there in the middle. Measuring voltage on it with respect to battery negative terminal while twisting the key to III you might see:
- battery voltage: the solenoid should engage and the starter motor should turn; if not, expect an intermittently failing solenoid or corrosion on contacts.
- no or very low voltage: would point towards a failed ignition switch.
With the gearbox in neutral, if you run a wire to the service socket and touch the positive battery terminal momentarily, it should make the starter motor run. Basically, it does the same as shorting the two terminals on the solenoid together albeit in a more convenient and safer way. Repeat this several times to see if the starter motor runs consequently. If so, that would point towards a problem upstream of the service socket (likely the ignition switch). If not, downstream, i.e. contact corrosion or the solenoid/starter motor.
Good luck!
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Thanks everyone for the help. Seems mostly what I needed was a few additional brains to help work through this.
The problem was the starter, the solenoid had failed. For anyone searching in the future with a similar problem, here's what I learned:
As Machine Man noted, my 93 doesn't have the starter terminal under the hood. My 91 does, so apparently they went away in 92, as he said.
When I returned the following day to see if I could learn more, jumpering the terminal on the starter solenoid directly to the battery no longer made the car crank. That eliminated the possibility of most of my previously suspected failure points (neutral safety switch bypass, ignition switch, etc). A few whacks on the solenoid, per Dave's suggestion didn't change anything, but with pretty much everything else eliminated there weren't a lot of possibilities other than the solenoid.
I've got a few untested starters, so I grabbed the best looking one and got under the car to pull out the one that was in there. When I went to unbolt the positive cable that runs to the battery the whole solenoid rotated. Now, I haven't ever disassembled one to really know what it looks like in there but I'm reasonably certain the whole damn thing isn't supposed to spin. Even if it wasn't bad before, it is now! Anyway, installed the replacement starter and it started right up.
When doing my initial tests I think I only tested the starter by jumping it to the battery two or three times. Since I already suspected something under the dash as the culprit I assumed the successful cranking when jumpered confirmed my suspicions. In reality I guess I just got lucky (unlucky?) with the intermittently failing solenoid.
All seems well now, happily. Thanks again everyone!
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I had a solenoid fail once long ago, on a refurbished starter---done at a trusted auto electric shop. The thing came undone/lose inside the case. I took it back to the shop-- he'd never seen that before, but made a note of the solenoid brand that he had used in the refurbish.
So apparently it's rare, but it does happen.
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Not that this is necessarily the problem in your case, but something to consider: Although they’re well liked among folks like radio installers and trailer light hooker-uppers, I’m not a big fan of crimp splices. I much prefer soldered connections with a couple layers of shrink tubing.
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