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Oy, my'84 245's been on a downward spiral over the last year. After replacing the distro with a pick-a-part replacement to rectify a Hall sender failure, I've had a persistent knock/low power situation, like the timing's not advancing properly, like the host organism is not happy with the donor organ. No real difference when using high octane. At idle, timing's set at 12 degrees and it runs OK except under load. I tried a test with the O2 sensor removed to see if the cat was blocked, and it seemed to improve, so I cut out the cat to clean it and temporarily installed a straight pipe in it's place.
Now I'm experiencing a sporadic no-start condition where it will usually start and run after it's been sitting overnight, but if it doesn't catch that first time, it won't start again until resting for hours, as if it's getting no fuel. Give it a long rest and it more or less wants to start, but again, if it doesn't catch that first time, you're completely out of luck: spark but seemingly no fuel. This is a very consistent pattern.
-Jumper wire tests on both fuel pumps seem to indicate them working normally.
-Fuel pump relay and fuel filter are new.
-Fuel level in the tank is down around 1/8, and no, I haven't opened up the tank to look at the pickup/sock, etc.
-Compression is good all around, and vacuum hoses are all new.
As usual, all thoughts are welcome.
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Here's a question: I got it started this morning- hard start, sputtering to life and leveling out to a semi respectable idle after about a minute, and as I was wiggling connections under the hood looking for sketchy contacts for the umpteenth time, I noticed the 25amp FI fuse holder was hot. Not warm, but HOT, and getting hotter.
Is this normal, or is this a clue?
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Even if not your current problem its worth fixing. Having a spare fuse won't help if that socket burns up out on the road. I also had hard starting and sputtering with platinum plugs many years ago so I endorse copper too. If that fuel pressure regulator has never been change do that as a preventative maintenance item.
At some point you may want to check the injectors for leakage or partially clogged. A bottle of cleaner in the tank doesn't prove anything. There's no substitute for eyes on.
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Hello,
+1 for not using platinum plugs. When they're new there's nothing wrong with them. Runs very well indeed almost "butter-like" smooth. Even copper plugs runs a bit "raw" in comparison. I even thought this is the "upgrade" I'm looking for all these years.
But most platinum plugs have a very fine tip and they get fouled down the months/years. Then misfires start happening. Usually the owner doesn't suspect them until many other engine parts are thrown in later.
It may be well to revisit your spark plugs. You may need to use magnifying glass to see the fouling (carbonization) on the tips.
Regards,
Amarin
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And what about those platinum plugs that have a blunt tip?
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I think you're referring to earlier first generation of Bosch plugs with its platinum electrode embedded flush within its porcelain tip. These are the troublesome ones. I avoid these after bad misfire experiences. Current Bosch platinums have more exposed centre electrode ala NGK iridiums. Knowing how frugal Volvo owners could be (me included) I never tried these new plugs despite good marketing claims.
I don't know which type of platinum plug the OP uses hence I asked him to really inspect the electrode with magnifying glass.
Regards,
Amarin.
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Purely electrically speaking, I don't really think the material matters much, as long as it's conductive. We're talking high voltages and extremely low currents here. It's the path the spark has to jump across that determines everything.
The blunt tip has the advantage of having lots of surface material from which the spark can emanate. The spark will find its way along the path of least resistance.
If a bit of the path gets obstructed, it just finds another one. The blunter the tip, the more space the spark has to move around.
I can imagine that the narrow tip, a platinum plug usually has, limits this ability to find a "better spot" for the spark to jump. If that narrow tip then also erodes, the gap becomes incorrect quickly.
No, I'm sticking to the standard plugs of which I recently found out that in my particular engine, Volvo says to replace them every 45,000 km/36 months rather than every 15,000 km, go figure...
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Thanks Amarin,
The plugs have only got a few hundred miles on them, and there were no signs of fouling when I pulled them to test compression a couple weeks ago, so I'm going to rule them out as the cause of my current dilemma, but the verdict seems to be pretty unanimous that copper's the way to go on this car.
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I replaced the fuel pressure regulator about 8 or 9 years ago, but it was an aftermarket unit, so I'm suspicious. I'm catching a little whiff of fuel in the vacuum line, so gonna run a vacuum test on it today.
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I would say that’s a clue. Did you clean up the ends of the fuse and the contacts that interface with the fuse? There may also be a break-down where the wires coming and going to the fuse holder are connected - corrosion and oxidation can be sneaky. You could temporarily jump the fuse holder but be careful to not let it accidentally ground to chassis.
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Does anyone have a good tip on the easiest, cheapest way to test fuel pressure on an "84 LH 2.0 with no Schrader valve? I saw Art Bs setup while searching past threads, just wondering if there's more of a quick and dirty method that is also safe and reasonably accurate.
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Disconnect the fuel line from the cold start valve and connect the hose to the pressure gauge. The cold start valve operates under the same fuel pressure as the injector rail so, yes, it will provide accurate pressure info.
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'84 should not have have a cold start injector.
--
'79 242, '84 DL 2 door, '80 DL 2 door, '89 DL Wagon, '15 XC70 T6 AWD
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We’ll that won’t work then….
Thanks for the clarification.
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A good idea otherwise, though.
It's worth mentioning that the cold start injector does appear in the '83-'84 "official" Volvo wiring diagrams. The headache inducing diagrams that are reproduced in Bentley. Number 95. Cold start injector.
But it's wiring is shown in a dashed linetype meaning it was not a standard item for all engines.
I think in the case of '83-'84 it is there because it is used on the B21FT. That's an assumption on my part because the turbos were K-Jet and the two K-Jet cars I have owned have had the cold start injector.
--
'79 242, '84 DL 2 door, '80 DL 2 door, '89 DL Wagon, '15 XC70 T6 AWD
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It's never simple.
On a side note, how's that XC70 treating you?
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Well enough. It's had it's problems but nothing that hasn't been fixed under warranty.
I could write a dissertation but this is not the place for it. Suffice to say I have not had one moment of buyer's remorse.
--
'79 242, '84 DL 2 door, '80 DL 2 door, '89 DL Wagon, '15 XC70 T6 AWD
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Thank you for that affirmation!
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Put some more gas in the tank. At least 5 gallons.
We had an '88 745 GLE that acted up when the fuel level got below 1/4 of a tank.
Check the FAQ - or do a search for low fuel causing problems - It usually begins at less than 1/4 of a tank - our 745 never got worse, but at least 2 times we forgot about the car's Achilles Tendon!
It has to do with holes in the fuel pick-up.
It is inexpensive to try this.
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Well, it started right up this morning and I drove straight to the gas station and added 7 gallons. Drove home, checked the timing, then shut it off. Tried to start it again a minute or two later and it wouldn't budge. Spark from my test plug, but no ignition. There is a faint whiff of gas in the FPR vacuum line. Maybe this is the culprit?
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I’m one of those that asks more questions than provides answers…..
So when it DOES start does it run fairly well?
Do you have a fuel pressure gauge you can attach to the injector rail or attach to the cold start valve hose in order to check fuel delivery pressure?
Does the test plug show spark on all of the four plug wires?
What kind of spark plugs are you running?
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Hi Chris,
It starts pretty readily when it's very well rested, and runs not well, but at least firing on all 4. Weak on power, though. I would describe it as feeling like 73% of normal.
I don't have a fuel pressure tester, so have not tested fuel pressure or cold start valve, though this seems like a logical next step.
Plugs are NGKs.
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"...Plugs are NGKs...."
Standard copper core type or more exotic?
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I know the auto parts stores will say the platinum plugs are the way to go, and I’m sure they work fine in other cars, but I never had fantastic results with them in a Volvo. Your car was originally built with plain ‘ol $2.00 copper cores and my personal experience tells me to stick with them. Slim chance the plugs are the issue with your car but thought I’d throw that out there. You never know….
Have you checked into the possibility of an AMM gone bad? It’s an expensive part so it’s not the first thing to suspect. But just for laughs the next time you get a no start maybe try unplugging the AMM and see if it will at least start in limp mode.
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I usually with basic Bosch plugs, but the platinums were all they had that day. Also, no luck with "limp home mode". No difference whether I've got the AMM plugged in or not.
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Ok guy here we go!
I’m responding to this post of yours so it lands in the middle of the bottom two.
I have been waiting for these questions and answers from the board!
It has been an interesting thread so far as to what the heck the conclusion is going to be! (:-)
If there is no change when unplugging the AMM then maybe the AMM is already dead?
How would you know but it’s a test (:) for the lack of one really.
There should be a definite difference as limp mode truly sucks!
I also saw the timing belt question and I will just say that the timing light only times the spark to the crankshaft and one in the up position. Zero corresponds to number one cylinder on the top of its compression stoke for firing that cylinder.
You are aligning the distributors spark and not the overhead cams location of valve being closed.
The 12 degrees come into play to get the spark started and delivered.
Being delivered in or on time, at top dead center.
Think of it as a head start because the ignition system is so slow, when compared to the speed of those Pistons. 12 degrees @basic idle.
You said @30 degrees @5,000 rpm!
Ok, but don’t do that without a load on those rods for any prolonged time, as it’s a good way to blow an engine.
You only want to see the timing light to show a flicker of movement around the crankshaft above idle.
That can cause rod or bearing damage as things are not as tight when under a load it was designed for!
Ask any racer what’s scary and what happens with missed shifts or even with a weekend driveway noise maker under a shade tree! My Dad blew up his 1949 Ford in our driveway! Fords don’t like any looseness.
The other post about one tooth off is true and getting the slack out of the belt is an issue.
There are three marks that have to be in time.
The cam to the distributor relationship is just as important as the crankshaft.
The distributors intermediate shaft has a dot that’s aligned to a faint mark in the plastic cover, in the three “O” Clock position.
It can only be seen with a mirror held down there to remove any parallax when viewed.
If it off then the timing light is off to everything else!
I can say this thread is spinning, round and around too!
Being methodical in the sequences is the only way to resolve this.
Look over all the post and start with the basic mechanical parts first and scratch off the other suggestions (until) you know what you have working correctly!
The spark plugs and the AMM are afterwards.
I have considered platinum, iridium or multi electrodes are next to snake oil in the case of this engine! They did their homework over the many years and “fine tune things” for the middle of the road performance compromise. More money only goes so far to buy more tricks!
We are all enjoying the puzzle but we don’t have the hands to place the pieces in place!
Remember TLC works on all of us!
Phil
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Really interesting!
Spark from a test plug but no ignition?
Please explain.
Are you checking from the coil or some other place?
Are the cylinders plugs getting fouled with gas? You will have to pull them to see as sniffing a tail pipe is a bit remote. (:)
A faint odor from a rubber vacuum line could be just that. The intake manifold is subject to smells and rubber can absorb them.
I think you would want to see and smell raw gas if it were that quick to stop starting.
Have you ever changed out the rotor button itself.
They can go bad especially if you are not getting spark to the cylinders plugs.
There is a resistor in there that cracks open and goes intermittent suddenly or quits. Most of us carry a spare that we have used as known good!
We inherited this quirk from the Volkswagen Beetle people! Same stuff in theirs!
A distributor cap carbon brush can go bad too, but how rare I don’t know.
Ever replace the coil wire over to the distributor?
They go way to long as some spark plug set(s) do not furnish them!
They snag you with a lower price that way!
Cranking without the ignition working should flood the plugs eventually and would explain the waiting periods!
It’s rare that all the fuel injectors would leak “all” at the same time, so please don’t go there! (:-)
I was just thinking about these 1984’s
There could be an issue with the wiring harness over to the electronic box on the right fender.
If someone has attempted to remove that connector, there is a yellow wire that can get botched and it will kill the whole ignition system.
Just a thought, because the 1984 was the beginning years of Chrysler’s weird thinking on one time use of connector pins!
How is your engines wiring harness by the way? Still original?
Phil
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Hi Phil,
The wiring harness has been replaced (what a disaster that thing was!). My test plug is connected to the #1 out on the cap, so I've got good, consistent spark all the way to to the cylinders. The faint gas smell I mentioned is in the vacuum hose from the fuel pressure regulator to the throttle body.
When it's running, it's got the pulsing idle to varying degrees, and as mentioned in the initial post, sluggishness/noticeable lack of power, and much ping on acceleration.
Timing is set at 12 degrees BTDC at idle, advancing to around 30 at 5000 rpm.
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Hi,
I think the idle hunting can be caused by a missing cylinder correction but an incorrect mixture can cause the same thing. This is why I lean towards its a series of false inputs from the AMM.
If you moved the spark rested to other plugs and you have consistency from the cap and rotor, I can see your point, that you should be able eliminate that as a cause.
I have noticed a lot discussion about spark plugs and agree that exotic sparks are a bunch of marketing bunk for these non racing and likewise older engines.
Cross flow and swirling flame fronts were just coming into being!
The manufacturers make a spark plug for about $.50 apiece and it hard for them to justify putting out anymore costs for platinum or iridium than they have too. Just remember vehicle manufacturers get great deals on quantities!
These things only use a pellet in length, at the tip, with no diameter to speak of. 95% of the plugs length is a standard conductor the pellet is only for corrosion resistance.
I have doubts about the amount of “fat spark exposure” that gets or stays out there in the combustion chamber.
I have tried them and got the same results that AMARIN writes about. The tip of the center electrode being flush ends up burning down and ends up being tucked down in a pocket and then the fouling occurs.
The 1984 is a LH 1.0 design that changed up by to LH 2.0 by 1986 and the wiring harness insulation degrade ability issue lingered on just past that!
The AMM’s changed but kept the screw adjustments for idle emissions.
The 1984 uses a 002 model and the 1986 uses a 007 model and was used longer than the 002, but both still have failures.
Rebuilders have done good by us over the years but the 002 may be getting very scarce but I cannot verify that!
I think, as it’s been awhile, that Art Benstein has posted that the 002 connector can be pinned to use a 007 by moving two wires around since they are so closely related.
I would research that if you cannot get a direct replacement.
I have not done this as I like things stock as much as I can keep them. That might be silly but there may be a day I will have to succumb and use some of my 007’s stashed for my 1986.
About a year ago I replaced my 002 with a rebuild with a warranty.
Even that does have its limitations, due to supply!
Keeping a Demand for the 002 has helped keep it alive, so far!
If I were you I would get one and use it and if it works, get another one for a spare testing tool.
It come down to how long you want to keep the car, or a collector after you. Spare parts are always a used car selling feature!
In the future, I see electric platforms coming out to replace combustion engines and the power trains.
They will be designed relatively easy exchange and for road worthiness because there will be so many vehicle bodies still in good shape.
With older cars the RUSTIC Style and different looking things still sell to create FADS!
I now see those “made worn out” Levi’s and hip huggers!
Recently I spotted some large bell bottoms starting to “prance” around!
I hope DISCO doesn’t
If it’s gone around, it can come back with a possible TWIST!
Phil
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Hi again,
So now we are ruling out the ignition system as it has consistent and reputable firing but the performance and starting is the issue.
When you throw in the “variations of idling” may lead to a sticky IAC but the hard starting is a kicker in the head!
Well, I hate to say this, but it sounding more and more like the AMM has failing in some of its requirements of input going back to the ECU.
If the connector is all nice and clear of corrosion with the pins located in their perspective depths you are looking to doing an exchange test with a good AMM.
It’s the only way I know of to “pop the pimple” as these LH systems are very fast to adjust to normal conditions, let alone having things introduced by a false sensor input!
I think this is the quagmire part coming up!
I have recently had to exchange one of these out for similar sporadic idle symptoms that quickly jumped into limp home mode.
I got a rebuild from an O’REILLY’s parts store for what I considered a reasonable price of under a $100 with a lifetime warranty, if I remember correctly?
I had a spare to test with but it was my last and only one!
Since this 1984 is so special, a Bosch (002), I bit so I could share the future of my car with a rebuilder source. (:).
Unless you have other symptoms we have not discussed I’ll vote that an exchange might be the only option to stop all the head scratching at this time!
Phil
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Hi,
Chris Mullet has a good idea to check out, if you’re not getting fuel because it is for fuel injection.
You can peel back the boot on the AMM he should have current on the orange wire there when cranking or running position.
Look into the site.
Cleanflametrap.com has pictures on this procedure with Art Benstein’ notes!
I wonder if it will start up every time with starting fluid sprayed into the intake manifold through the vacuum of the fuel pressure regulator?
If it’s sparking full time it should hit and sputter for a second or so.
You could try it several times to see if that works consistently.
You said you changed out to a new relay?
On the 1984 there are two relays not just one!
They are Identical and Interchangeable but it still takes two, too do, the tango dance! (:)
One for the pumps and one for the injectors.
On later cars the system relays are doubled up into only one can.
Sometimes only one side quits from bad solder joint cracks or a coil.
The change out of only one relay means if you open the can on the other one and close it manually it can be a test!
I use shoe string or put a rubber band around it and the socket.
If it fires up then you have the culprit.
These early relays have been known to develop bad magnetic coils and overheat themselves.
An intermittent situation occurs. It shouldn’t last long though!
The more times it does this, the more frequent it gets to be a problem.
It can and will drive one nuts until it just totally quits out right.
He might be very close to that already and just didn’t get the right one?
Another, Worth A Try, (WAT) as you did talk more about it being a fuel issue.
The gas tank needs more than 1/8 tank of gas.
The pre-pump that feeds the main pump needs to be covered up over the rubber hose above it. If there is a split in it the main pump starves!
Phil
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Thanks Phil,
Of course gassing it up is the obvious place to start as far as the apparent lack of fuel goes, but it's such a snarl of maybe-interconnected symptoms that I can't imagine that's the whole of it. I've been looking at Art's site and the Volvo Problem Solver. I've tried switching the relays back and forth to no avail. I'd hesitate to even refer to the spark/ no-start situation as intermittent because it follows such a predictable pattern. I've been assuming the timing belt is OK based on timing light readings, but I suppose it can't hurt to take a look. The FPR got replaced a few years ago in a fit of random, misinformed replacing of parts without thorough diagnosis, but that's on my list of thing to look at as well. I still can't shake the feeling that it has something to do with the dizzy swap, since that's when this cycle of pain really took off. The junkyard replacement wasn't the most confidence inspiring part condition-wise, so I wouldn't be surprised if the hall sensor on that one isn't on its way out, even though it passed Art's 9v battery test at the pick-a-part and seemed to be doing its job when I installed it.
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Hi,
Yes I was suggesting to inspect the cams mark by just loosing the timing cover back a bit at the top.
It’s only a few bolts.
It would not be the first time that a belt can jump a tooth. Any engine can actually rock backwards a little when shut down to equalize the strokes in the cylinders.
Especially, if the belt tensioner maintenance isn’t done with every other 7,500mi oil change. I believe that’s the recommended 15,000 mile interval.
The cams front cylinder one two lobes will be pointing directly upward on the compression stroke.
The mark on the front of the sprocket can be observed aligning to a notch of the back cover when the crankshaft is on zero on the damper.
For all we know the damper can shift in rotation which can screw thongs up but I Do not remember if the 1984 has the rubber harmonic damper. The B23 has it’s differences and the B21 doesn’t use one.
While You can inspect that mark, there a distributors rotor button requirement to line up under the number one wire of the cap.
I think the button points to the cap locating notch on the rim of the distributors housing. It’s been awhile since I have played with my engines! (:)
Keep chucking TLC at it, you’ll find something!
Phil
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Has you cleaned the corrosion off of the 25 amp fuel system fuse? It’s in a small fuse holder that’s mounted on one of the inner fenders - I think the LH (drivers) side of the engine bay.
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Yes, definitely. Also cleaned the MPG connectors up in the far left corner by the firewall.
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Hi,
Sounds like a timing issue alright, but I want to think it’s the timing belt off a tooth or so and the cam effects the breathing.
Hard to start is a symptom of a timing belt issue.
You can push the distributor around to compensate some but the advance may not reach where it needs to be on the higher RPM.
Changing out the distributor number with a wrong might one have move the advance specifications a wee bit ,but I seriously doubt how much this could affect performance.
Most of the time spark engineers, buddy up with emissions guys and they play marbles!
This way they bounce ideas off each other to come up with a compromise.
My 1984 B23 LH 1.0, has always seemed to have more low end torque and less easiness to breathe than the later B230 in my later 1986 LH 2.0 and the LH 2.4’s.
I have noted they were playing around with different cams without even mentioning any turbo experimentation.
With these thoughts, maybe there is an answer it someplace?
Phil
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Sounds like too much advance. That will cause knocking and also loss of power if the mixture is being ignited while the piston is still coming up. The basic timing is usually set with the vacuum advance disconnected and plugged but check the manual for your model.
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I had a similar problem when I changed my timing belt on an 84 B21ft. Very sluggish and a knock under load. I checked the timing 3 times and it looked like the three timing marks lined up but then I was told that you need to set-up the cam and the intermediate shaft sprocket timing marks and then move the crankshaft 1 tooth to the left. So when you loosen the timing belt tensioner the crank will snap back 1 tooth and line up correctly.
So I did that and my timing is correct now.
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so was it reading correctly with the timing light? I would assume if the crank was off one tooth it would show up as being completely out of whack with the timing light.
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When I said I checked the timing 3 times I ment I checked the timing marks 3 times and they seemed to line up. There were 2 people that told me to try this trick and it worked for me.
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I assume you are tightening the distributor hold down bolt each time, initially when I looked at this thread I thought maybe the distributor was rotating and changing timing as you drove. Going back to basics, all wires are in the right positions? Harnesses and connections are tight? Grounds are making good connection? Do you have the ole distributor to but in to see if the problem goes away? Or maybe take the hall sensor out of the most recently installed one?
Don
--
1991 240 Sedan auto
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