|
|
|
Today I noticed a strange noise coming from the engine bay. Does anyone recognize it? 1992 245
Video here.
|
|
-
|
|
|
Power steering reservoir empty??
|
|
-
|
|
|
the clatter just means it's running. I keep getting surprised by these electric cars and want to yell "hey, you forgot to start your car" :)
id take off the PS belt then you can feel for play better with no tension. even slacken it way off as a quick test when it's doing it. see if you can shake the pulley.
covering stuff with a floor mat might help you hear the direction of the sound better. or screwdriver to the ear trick or auto stethiscope. or hunk of garden hose with one end to your ear.
probably not that but I thought maybe bad bushing in distributor.. i guess they get a little lube by blowby fumes from crankcase.. a bad bearing or bad bushing can make sounds similar to that.
a can of Wd40 (mechanics colone) can sometimes quieten a bad bearing to isolate the issue. You can also put a little behind the ears so your wife thinks you've been busy :)
|
|
-
|
|
|
badbelt?something s moving that shouldnt!
|
|
-
|
|
|
Thanks everyone for the replies.
I tried to pinpoint the source of the sound, but of course, the popping noise has disappeared - at least for now.
All belts are reasonably new, but I will check the timing belt tensioner and its bearing.
|
|
-
|
|
|
Spray some lube on the PS pump bearing/bushing. Mine had a sound like a valve tap and that took care of it
|
|
-
|
|
|
I'm familiar, though it was a long time ago. I believe I got a spray bottle I keep water in and spritzed the power steering belt to get it to be quiet, then adjusted the tension. I could be mis-remembering the cure, but the sound is unmistakably the sound I remember.
--
Art Benstein near Baltimore
"If you associate enough with older people who enjoy their lives, you will gain the possibility for a full life." -Margaret Mead
|
|
-
|
|
|
It's been a while since I started this thread. The occurrence was pretty intermittent and never happened whenever I had time locate it. Lately, the strange sound had become much persistent, so finally the opportunity arose to pinpoint the source.
With a rubber hose used as stethoscope, I found the sound emanated from where the belt enters the groove of the power steering pulley.
I followed your suggestion to spray some water on the belt, and it instantly became quiet.
There was some gunk lodged in the teeth of the belt in a few places and it felt slightly slack, so I remedied both.
I never expected the popping noise to come from the belt, but it sure did.
|
|
-
|
|
|
Hi Grey!
Thanks for the update. I was hoping you would find it to the pump like you thought but that pulley is like a speaker cone.
Yep some rubber compositions and any filaments used in belting cannot always be a marriage made in heaven.
The Splicing joints and Vulcanizing raises issues eventually.
Same goes for serpentine belts and those idlers getting replaced when it’s just the belt blipping by and the way they get bent back and forth is astonishing!
I think, GoodYear made timing belts with a special rubber. Different concept involved.
I don’t know if they went bye bye to Continental?
Your finding of the gunk is why I like the slanted tooth notch design plus the proprietary composition of rubber compound described in my earlier post in this thread.
The slant causes a more gradual engagement with the two sides of the V in the pulley and therefore reduces those sounds. Hey, I get Dirt and oils combine under my fingernails too! (:)
The belt sides are never directly across from each other to cause so much of the squishy sound upon entry or exiting.
The rubbers formula used and it’s characteristics doesn’t glaze up as easily too.
When it comes to abrasion, it is more tolerant or resistant to those contaminations.
Four years of running quietly is not a problem on my cars! I hate squishy swirling noises.
If you want those belts you will have to specifically go after those Continental “Elite” marked ones.
It’s only in V belts made as far as I know?
Continental is a major brand we know and trust but better is better, in timing belts.
Look for the slanted teeth or it’s not the “Quiet Belt.”
Continental didn’t buy all the rights to GoodYear’s branding fanfare!
The Continental’s family of products, have their own stature! (:-)
If you noisy again, you have a plan!
Phil
|
|
-
|
|
|
Hi Phil,
I could find no evidence for the pulley acting like a speaker cone. Only with the "sthethoscope" close to the point where the belt enters the groove could I hear a clear increase in volume. Anywhere else, including the flat side of the pulley, and it was a lot lower.
|
|
-
|
|
|
Hi Grey
Just read your comment about not finding a speaker cone was rather humorous to me. (:)
Someone actually took me literally, I’m sorry for that right now!
I have to say it was a phraseology of my mind looking at the construction of the metal disc being thin in the middle.
A speaker cone is made the same way like diaphragm membrane inside a Fuel Pressure Regulator or EGR valve. A speaker cone is suspended and moves back and forth on a voice coil magnetic.
What I’m saying here that there are similarities of design even though the purposes of use change.
The shear diameter could amplify or distribute vibrations outward like an audio device, that moves air, towards out ear drums.
A Tesla car, playing a radio in outer space cannot make any sound, as there is no air!
An Elon Musk prank on the world!
My thoughts are a wee bit on the same order, as it turns out, with your analyzation.
So yes, it’s not a speaker cone but a tin horn, maybe?
Same principle on a (high wattage) public address systems.
The term is also referred to as a funneling device?
I’m messing with you! (:-)
If you ever get enough wear on your power steering pump that the plain bushings get a tiny bit of slop or the rotor vanes get so dirty with old oil as to stick in their slots.
You will hear a clacking sound.
I was suggesting that THIS was the sound you were hearing and it can comes and go randomly depending on oil dispersion.
The belts clumps of gunk is a logical explanation that I have not seen, but noises have their ways of messing with your heads thinking!
The sound “could” technically travel out the shaft and into the pulley. There’s nothing to say to me that it could not.
The belt should deaden those but as you found out the belt can put sound into the pulley as well!
Those vibrations from either one can be emanating into a larger surface underneath, IMO.
Who’s is to say, that it happens that much, so I used the word could, above.
Over the years power steering pumps have had their designs change from having the reservoir surrounding the pumps housing called an integral design. With that one, the oil deadens sounds and the clack will sound like a marble stuck on stick being rattled inside a tin can.
I have a couple car with them so I have experience with both and I have learned to keep exchanging the power steering fluid periodically.
This was a lesson learned thats referred to later as “wisdom” for some stories, like this one, about that “wise old mechanic” in the shop on those Car Talk shows!
Tracing and diagnostics is a skill earned! You gain yours for us too!
Thanks
Phil
|
|
-
|
|
|
Hi Phil,
No problem! I did take the speaker cone literally, but not in the sense of looking like one but acting like one. While the pulley might look like one, it didn't act like one. That was what I was trying to say, I think ;-)
Here's another video of the source of the sound, but with a stationary engine.
In hindsight, I realized that when I replaced the belts they were not 100% identical to the ones that came off. The new ones actually may be slightly wider.
In the end, I think the popping noise is actually the belt slipping at the dirty spots because of the slackness.
|
|
-
|
|
|
"I believe I got a spray bottle I keep water in and spritzed the power steering belt to get it to be quiet, then adjusted the tension. I could be mis-remembering the cure, but the sound is unmistakably the sound I remember. "
Art,I agree with your diagnosis.
I also have used a fine jet of water on one belt after another to locate exactly the origin of the squishy sound. That sound realy turn pedestrian head on your car when waiting at a street corner. They must think it is much older than it look and brobably about to quit. I have always used Volvo belts.
If the louder "tack tack" sound stays after belts are wet and quiet it should be easy to locate the origin.
|
|
-
|
|
|
Hi gentlemen,
I haven’t tried the water trick on belts of any kind before, as in a plant operations division scenario, we change out the belts completely.
In my early years there was belt dressings of various kinds of viscosities but I always found them to be a messy affair in the end.
Dirty belts and pulleys help to put a glaze on a belt and the dressings tried to address that along with the rubber material aging. Ultimately its the hardness of material that changes the belt on air handlers! They are put in “no man lands” of attics or on roofs and run unmonitored until an interval or complaints!
Most of these old type V belts were smooth without notches or grooves. Then all that has changed to flat belts with “Poly materials.” Lots of belts have multiple grooves and tiny notches.
The notch design and poly materials with cord innovations shaped the industry’s direction a bunch!
Much like Timing and Serpentine belts we see in the automotive industry.
This was due to the desires of compact environments with smaller diameters involving snake like methods!
There is one company in particular that stands out in my mind and that was the GoodYear Rubber company. They use to lead the way in tires and belting materials in the years past!
They always seemed to have distribution problems though and just like Sony, just got a little too crazy with the words proprietary!
The “GatorBack” brand for automotive uses has been bought out by Continental and is now sold under their “Elite” label. It seems to me that when you cannot do better, buy them out!
I have been watching this happening in America for the last thirty years and is one reason why I left the Machining Design world.
GoodYear management must have their reasonings but I see laziness or a quick buck!
The spritz of water cools the materials involved and that probably lengthens a belt, as most flexible belts do the opposite of most materials and get tighter when warmed up.
If you have noticed, Belts squeal more in the morning coolness and then go away!
The clack noise you are referring too, can be a hard segment of belt jumping the belt in the pulley.
Like I said, that pulley is like a speaker cone.
Using High speed photography catches this phenomenon and other events as well!
The squishy sounds are also created during the travel of engagement entrance and exiting the drive or driven members.
Imagine a knife cutting an Apple’s body. Is it the knife or the apple making a noise?
Maybe more water would make it quieter too?
Just take the belt off and fasten it to one side out of the way and remove all doubt too!
Nice thread, huh guys?
Phil
|
|
-
|
|
|
"Belts squeal more in the morning coolness and then go away!
The clack noise you are referring too, can be a hard segment of belt jumping the belt in the pulley."
I think your description of belts noise is right on.
For myself if the mileage was not done to require a new set of belts the water trick would confirm there is no severe problem. If I felt the tension was OK I was forgetting about that loud noise and funny enough it went away after a while. Sometime the noise would sound like a slipping bearing, as loud as that.
My hearing deficiency may help me sleep better on this kind of problem. On the other hand I have some problem hearing the pre-ignition knok on the 1982 B21A with breaker points. I plan to convert it to electronic ignition this summer with the help of my son.
You did a good description of the subject bringing your vast experience.
Thank you very much.
|
|
-
|
|
|
That noise is a new one on me---except for the 1968 Toyota Corona I had many years ago. I pulled the head and found the top of 3 pistons where they belonged and one the wasn't. The piston had split along a ring groove and sometimes the top "disc" went up and down with the piston--and sometimes not. I may be way off but to me your motor sounds terrible. - Dave
|
|
-
|
|
|
I'm curious, in what way does it sound terrible to you? What sounds wrong?
|
|
-
|
|
|
Beyond the valve clatter it just didn't sound or look smooth--but since you've said the noise goes away when warmed up maybe that roughness is just in the warm-up mode and the intermittent knocking would not be what I saw on that Toyota motor. BTW - with a used piston installed it ran just fine and I was able to keep this little 2-door hardtop on the road for cheap money. - Dave
|
|
-
|
|
|
Hi there,
Yep it is a sound from the power steering pump being amplified by the thin dished pulley under the belt.
That thing acts like a speaker cone, megaphone or a stethoscope without the ear tubes! (:) I might have exaggerated a wee bit on that, but you get the idea, that it’s louder for a reason.
It is a combination of a shifting shaft, up or down or to one side and then the other or even end to end within a spiraling grooved plain bearing that supports a rotor body.
The groove spreads the fluid under and around the shaft so it floats in the one long bearing.
The rotor body is held between two vertical surfaces with a very close clearance tolerance for fluid support. The shaft can shift back and forth if it becomes excessive.
Imagine that with a V Belt! (:)
Excessive belt tension or irregular belt tension around the belts length doesn’t help, again over time!
The rotor body has slots filled with thin slats called vanes and Centrifugal forces throws them against a bore that is slightly off center to the shaft. The space or gap created above one side of the bore give the vanes a pumping action against an internal variable pressure/flow bypass valve.
All of this mechanism is submerged in oil from a surrounding housing, like yours, or from a remote reservoir style.
I would suspect that clearances are more than they should be. This is either caused by wear or the power steering fluid has changed in viscosity. This is Not counting in some sludge or particles circulating throughout the whole system.
This is making things more sticky than the vanes like and/or some wear of the plain bushing bearing is designed for? A Random but consistent or insistent clack depending on how you listen to it! (:)
The bearing can become slightly elliptical or elongated over time, by excessive belt tension working together.
Oil breaking down with time or for both cases, it is now speaking out!
Given the simplicity of the pumps working parts, it amazing they work so well for so long with what is very little thought of maintenance from all of us!
I would suggest that all the fluid, in the system needs to be replaced or the reservoir replenished several times to bring back support to all the close tolerance parts.
The pump can run and work with noise for a very long time, if you can stand it!
I don’t even like a squishy sounding set of belts!
During this time try of a new fluid batch and a belt with just enough tension that you cannot turn or slip the pulley under the belt by hand!
There is plenty of surface area around that diameter to get a grip without excessive tension as the hydraulic flow load is not that great to begin with!
Unless, you run the wheels back and forth, lock to lock, on the ground dead stopped!
Who’s ever been guilty of doing that? (:) Not those without power steering I’ll bet!
This device was built on a premise of what IS, “too thick or too thin” compromise!
Particles and oil sludge developing was excluded due to its simplicity and investment.
I showed films to my students in a Machine Tool Metalworking class. One was that of Saginaw Power Steering pumps.
The outer casted housing was completely machined at the rate 600 per hour! A rotating Merry-go- Round of a purposely built machine and tooling!
CNC was just coming out of its infancy and getting tool path CRT screens!
Again, that was 35 years ago, but it might still be in use?
There I go again, running off at the lips!
Phil
|
|
-
|
|
|
Thanks for you elaborate answer. You may be onto something.
When I grab the pulley I can feel some movement in the axial direction.
When I made the video, the engine was warming up. When warmed up, the sound had gone. In the weekend I'll try to pinpoint the location of the source, but I'm pretty sure it's the pump.
|
|
-
|
|
|
Flush your power steering pump system...Add 1 bottle of "Lucas Power steering pump conditioner" then add power steering fluid.It will help the steering rack seals also. I only recommend products that work. 👍 just remember when you change to fluid there will be air bubbles and your pump and steering rack might make some noise until the bubbles are worked out. Give it a little driving time.🎯
|
|
-
|
|
|
Sounds like the timing belt flopping around. Try tensioning it
|
|
-
|
|
|
Sounds like the timing belt flopping around. Try tensioning it
|
|
-
|
|
|
Check power steering fluid level.
|
|
-
|
|
|
Have you tried to isolate the sound somewhat by using a piece of heater hose?
One end of the hose to your ear as you move the other end around the components in the engine bay. Obviously be care working that close to a running engine.
Removing the drive belts and then replacing them one at a time might be useful.
Good luck!
--
Any twenty minute job is just a broken bolt away from a three day ordeal
|
|
|
|
|
