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So in light of all my weird idle issues, my car acts like the clutch is slipping in 4th at certain RPMs. Even stranger is the shift arrow goes off when it’s flaring. It doesn’t slip in the lower gears at all. What is that?
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Learn to adjust the clutch to a proper free play of the cable at the throw out arm.
An assembly of two white (or rarely black) nylon nuts. One for adjust and the other if a lock nut. Yet as nylon is barely compliant, who have to watch when you apply torque the adjust nut and the lock nut, it can throw off the free play of about 3-5 mm or so, about 1/8"
You can start with open end spanners. Yet over the life of a manual transmiddion 240 and clucth adjust, you may end up with the clutch adjust:
- too little free play at the throw out arm may not release the clutch / gearbox bits from the engine
- too much freeplay and the clucth may not close fully or slip. As the clutch wears, the free play (slack) in the cable is used up. If the cable is without some free play, that tension prevents full clucth clamping force. And slip.
https://www.brickboard.com/FAQ/700-900/TransmissionManual.htm
Tha adjustment requires a sort of mechanics touch and you may need to readjust a few times so you know you can shift and take updrive without slipping. Get OEM.
A search here or on a searh engine for Volvo 240 M47 clutch adjust may help you.
If you have an ongoing engine oil loss issue, the rear round cam seal on your engine could may be failing, and oil leaks downward to sully the clutch friction material.
Also you want to check the transmission mount, verify the gearbox is filled (or overfilled see the FAQ. Ude proper lubricant from Amsoil (SuperShift 10W) and Redline brand gear box lube or the Volvo synthetic gearbox lube. Never use Dexron or Mercon. In a pinch, Ford "Type F" transmission oil works.
Inspect the flex coupler disc or guibo at the out put flange for cracking if not already.
Hope that helps.
--
Beh.
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Hi,
I think you both may be correct in the question about the light.
He may have a MPG model computer system that came out in 1986 with the M46 with the electric hydraulic overdrive.
The light is an up shift indicator. It wants you to shift up to lower the RPMS.
IF the clutch is slipping the slight changes in RPM will extinguish the light. It can keep doing this repeatedly. It will on a M46 until it knows it is in overdrive with its OD LIGHT ON.
The M47 does not have the luxury of giving out that knowledge!
There is no overdrive per say as it is a fifth gear direct drive power train.
Maybe this car has a supplanted transmission or other ECU combination going on?
We have no history to work with so that is what makes everyone correct in their hypothesis!
In this case the light needs to be ignored if it’s a true M47 stick shift.
Phil
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In the case of a 1990 with M47, the diagrams show that the shift light is controlled by the ECU (pin 26) which not only knows the RPMs the engine is doing, it also determines engine load.
The latter is a signal supplied to the EZK for ignition timing. I don't know if it would have any influence on the way it controls the switch light, though. My 245 with M47 doesn't have that light.
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Correction to my previous post: "switch light" should be "shift light".
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Hi,
You are in the ballpark of what I was saying about the shift light all right!
On my 1986 245 with a M46 and electric/hydraulic overdrive it has the shift up indicator and in the nomenclature or manual it speaks of that car having a Miles Per Gallon design feature to increase efficiency by telling the driver when the earliest shift point can happen to achieve better mileages.
It basically had you shift at low RPMs to a point just above lugging the engine. It was very rpm sensitive and you could play with that zone to turn it on and off.
The light actually became a nuisance to me and I took the light bulb out!
I personally don’t think it cared about any loading all that much!
The ICU, out under the hood, did have a vacuum connection to the intake manifold.
I was always under the belief that it used a vacuum diaphragm to adjust or move a linear rheostat internally inside the ICU.
This moves the ignition timings just like it was previously done or purposed for a normal point or pointless ignition distributor.
Both systems adjusted or preset the timing curve to “start the advance” with RPMs where they wanted by adjust the spring tension inside the diaphragm.
The use of a rheostat was a electronic version of making the rotation.
By LATER EZK standards, of it having new variable “programing maps” capabilities, the early LH’s were still operating in a more fixed range of compromises.
The pin and signal from the EZK system that you are referring to is probably another left over output that could be used for whatever they need it for. Like for the electronic transmissions of today!
If I were him … I would take that bulb out! It’s a sensory thing, he doesn’t need!
Even today, the programs rewrite themselves continuously and it’s called “adaptive technology,” of which, is a communications works between an ICU and ECU “collectively” with inputs from other components we still have that get us by!
Today, they can record certain inputs back about 30 seconds before a crash.
A similar idea to the orange box operations recorder on a aircraft that tracks for hours!
Faster switching CPU power and memory expansion or even a form Artificial Intelligence!
Also can be Stored in a cloud that doesn’t put rain on your car!
(:- the human concept of computational reasoning is leading up to be,
The whole planet has its ones and zeros and both have equal values!
Yin and Yang
Phil
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So it's basically only RPM driven in the case of these Volvos.
Way back in the 1980s my parents owned a Toyota Corolla that had an econometer.
This would shown "ECON" or "PWR" depending on how much the throttle was depressed. It didn't depend on RPMs but on inlet manifold vacuum. Of course it wasn't a shift light.
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Hi Grey!
I understand what you are saying about a power mode versus economy mode and the gimmicks played to make a feature out of it.
In days of old an ordinary vacuum gauge it does the same thing.
The higher you can the vacuum up in the manifold, by not opening the throttle for less incoming air,, the less fuel mixture the engine got. Too simple of a concept I guess?
Between looking at a gauge they have tried lights, buzzers or just refuse to let it shift down or up.
Make it so it’s not put it under a brainless foot would be the place to set it up.
Don’t over build the engine size and under build the transmissions.
We are just now getting the idea across with nine and ten speed transmissions.
But the yo-ho’s, on both sides of the aisle, keep marketing horsepower numbers for low times in accelerations to the next traffic light!
Then there are engine gimmicks to shape a power curve, in an already inefficient energy conversion device, for about 120 years!
I have been on this planet since it’s inception and until evolution popped me out, 72 years ago!
Like everyone else I have seen the sun’s photons beating on our heads and electricity staring us in the face yet for the last forty years we are still willing to “sniff” them without doing better.
Color “US” humans as “all” being slightly dumb and a bit more LAZY!!
I just remembered you asked a question about why the term “common” is used in electrification.
The term should only be used when working with Alternating Current circuits because it uses phases!
The phases rise and fall in relation to a zero point per circuit.
I the generation of AC there are three circuits traveling out of a dynamo.
Of those three outputs, at any given time one phase is in rotation to be zero and the other will be opposite but they are still in common to the same dynamo's!
All the dynamo's circuits in a grid have to be kept in synchronization and so we are watching the “commonality” of those phases!
When starting upon an auxiliary power generator we have to have the generator up to speed and timed to a common phase.
Those high voltage or “Tension” towers you see across the land are carrying three phases on each side.
One side can be shut own for maintenance while not interrupting the system as a whole!
Again common is to be used only in AC!
DC or “Direct” Current is only positive or negative.
If you have a junction of one side you have a node!
You never want a either to become a common!
If you bring the two together you have a short!
Which one is hot is a matter of a mental play or choice!
In AC you must use a transformer where one line is a common and the other is a neutral for single phase use.
In your country you have 240 volt single phase.
We use 120 volt single phase for safety reasons.
Back when electrification first started the materials used were cloth insulation material.
We also used knob or spools to separate them.
This thinking was Influence by telegraph thinking, that was also high voltage low current DC get the distances.
This is where Tesla/Westinghouse and Edison bumped heads! But as we know, DC is our Electronics’s!
Evolution is not so speedy at times!
I think I just hijacked this thread but that’s just between you and I.
(:-)
Sorry there BB, I GET GOING on like a switch!
Phil
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From that point of view, I can see why you wouldn't want to be mixing up common with circuit common.
Perhaps it's why we usually call it "ground" instead. That in itself is wrong as it implies a connection to earth, but voltage measurements are relative, not absolute. It's why measurements always must be taken with respect to a reference point.
That point is often - but certainly doesn't have to be!!! - at earth potential.
The latter only works if the device under measurement has been referenced to earth itself (like non galvanically isolated mains powered devices). Introduce isolation via a transformer and now your reference point needs to be shifted.
We actually use 230 V/50 Hz single phase, 400 V threephase in the EU.
This is also a good example to show that voltage measurements are relative. Put the black probe on the neutral (N) conductor and the red one on any of the three phases L1, L2 or L3, and you measure approx. 230 V. Put both probes on any of the L1, L2 or L3 and suddenly the reading is 400 V.
Measured with respect to N, each phase measures at 230 V, but measured with respect to any of the phases, the other two measure 400 V.
BTW, a YT channel explains here that mains voltage in the USA is actually 240 V, not 120 V, despite it coming out of your sockets.
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Hi Grey,
Yep, off topic for sure aren’t we! Traffic is very low so we got this!
You have a wee bit more knowledge or experience in electricity than what sneaks out on the BB!
Yes everything you have said is correct and I think you got my point about phases being counted by L1,L2,&L3. They are the “in” common,, all by themselves.
Yes even single phase circuits in our neighborhoods are about 12,000 volts before the transformers.
They step in down and feed usually three or more houses depending on the panel amperage.
Yes, we have several different voltages in our country, due to transformers.
A single phase delta wired configuration transformer is the game here at 60 hertz!
It’s never been explained to me the reasoning for 50 hertz, when time is 60 divisions and RPMinutes are universal!
We get 120 on two legs, to be combined into 240, where needed within the same panel, by using separate bus bars.
On 240 volts we will have three wires, with one being the neutral white wire.
It’s the reference but it’s also earth ground that we use a bare wire to a rod in the ground!
Their the same when you consider atmospheric lightning as a player!
That is another controversial subject in our codes!
The other two are colored in different ways for different reasons. Black is common and uses brass color terminals on sockets. Silver is for Neutral.
All other colors can mean another leg or just a switched leg but is still a common side even in three phase we have three separate colors held to define the higher voltage circuits!
I have worked on a few field installed equipment that was not done by codes. In a couple case everything was one color! Supply and control circuits going everywhere! A nightmare inside.
They must have labeled the wires but as they went they cut them off the ends!
Someone must have hated to work there and pay back was on the agenda!
On three phase we actually run 480 volts and 277 volts that’s mostly used in commercial lighting circuits.
The 3 phase transformers have what we term as a “stinger leg” tap for the 277 volts.
I’m not to well diversified in that stuff as I’m not a true electrician or lineman person.
I dealt with equipment circuits and control systems in the refrigeration line of work and electric motors of all sizes.
I expect to see street light circuits, turn into charging stations, for electric cars.
They are standing there, on every block, not used during the day!
They turn off up above on the pole, not below it!
Hang cords out on each or my preference would be use an induction plate!
Get a photovoltaic car … park it under a street light at night!
Then you get a free continuous charge that way too!
Let’s not start with special ended cords and chargers all over again!
Phil
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There's no need for the mains frequency to be a multiple or fraction of 60. Before standardization, anything from 16.75 to 133.33 Hz was possible.
There are probably historical reasons why we ended up with 50 Hz or 60 Hz, and why Japan ended up with both.
Split phase transformers, stinger leg transformers? All sounds complicated to me.
You could argue that we have a simpler system in that we all have three phase power coming into our homes (even my apartment that was built late 1950s has it).
Only three phase transformers in the grid.
Typically in homes only one main fuse was (and still is) installed to get single phase 230 V between L and N. Most houses are still like that.
But more and more connections are being converted to threephase power for power hungry devices like heatpumps, jaccuzis, spas, jetstream pools, photovoltaics etc.
For about 300-350 euros the utility company fits two extra fuses and changes the kWh meter for a threephase model. Then you can have an electrician change your distribution board to add threehase circuits.
Existing single phase circuits can be run from one of the phases, or spread across the phases to get a more equal loading.
New houses will have threephase power installed by default, even if not used as a 400 V threephase source.
For homes that's it. Industrial properties with heavy machinery can also get 400 V/690 V connections. Even heavier industry will probably be fed from 11 kV and install their own transformers on the property.
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I’m not sure about the M47, but on a good many of the Volvos the overdrive is only engaged if the trans is in 4th gear. Your problem only occurs in 4th gear and only when the OD light goes off. It sounds as though your OD is kicking in and out rather than any sort of clutch slipping. My guess is that when it flares the RPMs are jumping up about 15% along with the OD light shutting off.
It could be that the OD solenoid is not getting good consistent electrical power as evidenced by the light going on and off. May be a frayed or shorted solenoid wire (a somewhat common problem), a failing relay, failing switch, oxidized fuse tip, or some other electrical weakness.
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To answer Chris's post--An M47 is a true 5 speed transmission. 4th gear is referred to as "OD" because it is an overdrive gear (instead of the 1 to 1 of 4th gear it is a .8 ratio). If a proper size tree is not available as has been suggested -- I'd drive down an empty street in 3rd or 4th at a low speed (10-15mph) and floor the throttle. If the clutch is weak (or the cable set too tight) that should induce slippage. - Dave
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Hi!
There is nothing unusual about a clutch slipping in fourth gear or high gear as it is an one to one ratio!
The higher the gear in the drive train the greater the disadvantage it has reduce load onto the engine.
This means there is no torque gain but a loss of RPMs. The engine RPMs are going directly into the rear differential from the transmission.
One turn in get you one rotation out of the driveshaft
Where as in first gear the engine makes like 18 turns to get the same one turn output. I just picked a number! (:)
With clutches it’s the same question!
If you checked the fifth gear, or overdrive, it will also slip and maybe even be quicker but you have to expect, not to feel the response to be so dramatic as you should be over 45mph to use it!
The engine gets about an additional 20% more load than a high gear does?
It’s why it’s called the over driven gear mode!
To check the clutch put the transmission in second gear or maybe third and drive the car up against a wall or tree. Try to take off and If it slips without killing the engine then you are experiencing a slipping the clutch without that wonderment you have in fourth.
Here the loss stops at a 3 to 4 turns of the engine to one turn of the wheels. The size of those wheels gets to be another calculation and the concept of actual horsepower delivered to the rear wheels get involved!
What’s USEABLE is where the stupid buying consumer gets beat to death or lost!
Once the tires break loose and burns away traction, the actual physics and math goes nuts!
Taxable or drawbar horsepower, are terms forgotten dealing with dead load pulling forces of a horse!
They had their place before todays marketing games of using brake horsepower!
When You are driving and experiencing this “flare”, the mass of the car is moving a long, it has an energy built up in it by “motion.”
This variation fades in and out, in so much, as a flare shape or bell curve in engineering, could work as a mental concept!
Pumps and fan designs use a “bell curve” concept to track efficiency at certain speeds.
The term “flaring” is very new to me!
Interesting analogy or choice of a word description to describe a feeling of something not normal as the other gears.
How did that term get started in your neck of the woods?
In mine, it would be something like this?
A trumpet player uses a cone or cup in its “flare” to change the sound.
I’ve heard it called a muffin because it looks like one and it muffle’s the sound.
The term “squishy” might be related to squeezing a not so firm tomato or a wet rag!
So, I guess it depends on what your “kitchen environment” was when we grew up!
Us boys, got to do the dishes! (:-)
To each, it’s his or her own mind set!
Phil
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Thanks for the response. Flaring is a term used frequently on the Mercedes W123 boards when the vacuum modulated transmission shift points in an auto transmission in a diesel start slipping and rpm’s rise and it is a slow gear change. Basically slipping. With no vacuum applied it is very sharp and neck snapping shifts.
My car is all original 1990 with M47 5 speed. Shift light for fuel economy. It slips and revs and then finally grips mostly in 4th but 3rd as well. The light goes off when it revs in gear then it settles and comes back on. I did change the clutch oil recently. Not sure if that could be doing something.
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My experience with the symptom you are describing-----Except Ignoring the Shift Light. A 'red herring'.
Besides an 87 Wagon with a 5 speed I own an 80 with a 4 speed.
Years ago on the 80 Sedan--4Speed...
I did a full timing gear Plus 3 front seal replacement, the 120K Volvo recommended service.
I've never replaced the Rear Main seal. When I put in a new clutch DYI in my garage a few years earlier---I told myself not pulling the flywheel and RMS this time---next time I'll pay my mechanic.
My thinking regarding the rest of this analysis was:
that by renewing the Front Seals...any potential Seal Leakage would be forced to the Older RearMainSeal.
Several months later...when ever I 'flogged it' after a traffic light OR tried to accelerate up a hill in 3rd....the engine would rev without gaining speed.
I'd back off the gas and the clutch would 'catch'.
So ignoring the Shift Light----
Assume you have as oil contaminated clutch disc. When you do the clutch be sure to renew the Rear Main Seal---as well as resurfacing the flywheel.
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Clutch oil?
So you have a hydraulically operated clutch?
I'm not sure if that would be the cause, might also be one of those unlucky combination of circumstances.
In a cable operated clutch, like on my 92, you can adjust free play wrong and have the clutch not fully engage as a result.
If I understand things correctly, a hydraulic clutch is self adjusting in the same way the brakes are self adjusting.
If the clutch pedal travels and feels normal, the same way as before the clutch oil change, I'd be more inclined to suspect the sping tension in the clutch is no longer what it should be, or it's simply worn out.
Some more eliminating needs to be done.
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