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Hi all - trying to troubleshoot a rough start/idle problem. Thanks in advance for tolerating this wall of text, I personally prefer too much over not enough when troubleshooting...
TL;DR: when cold: hard starts, lumpy idle, rough revs, worse in colder weather. Smooths out when warm. Good electrical and diagnostic checks on injection equipment. See google link at bottom for audio and spark plug pictures.
Symptoms:
Cold starts are generally hard, and result in a lumpy, unstable, high idle (usually up to 1500 RPM). Sometimes the engine will not turn over on the first try. Trying to rev the engine results in sputtering. Audio of representative starting, idling, and revving are available at the google link at the bottom. Spark plugs appear to be fouling consistent with running rich (pics at google link).
Being very gentle on the throttle will make it drivable enough to get going, then it will smooth out and run well after a couple minutes (colder weather = takes longer to smooth out). It seems to me that it gets better when the O2 sensor warms up and the ECU goes into closed loop mode, but I haven't tested to confirm that. Even then, it will sometimes idle above 1k RPM.
Just want to reiterate - when the engine has warmed up, it runs well and will restart on the first couple cranks with no bad symptoms. The above only happens on cold starts.
Diagnostics:
I've replaced the fuel pressure regulator, which had no effect. Injectors were replaced about 20k miles/2 years ago. A casual check for vacuum leaks turned up nothing (pulled intake boot and MAF, visual check on some under-hood hoses). The throttle position sensor, coolant temp sensor, and air mass meter are all good per Bentley specs. The diagnostic control functions 2 (inputs) and 3 (outputs) tests all pass. I have yet to perform electrical checks from the ECU connector.
Guesses:
Bentley shows a cold start injector or cold start valve for LH3.1 (not very clear) - my car has neither. My exhaust situation is pretty janky at the moment, but the system is 100% stock to the end of the cat and has no apparent leaks (was running ipd sport 2.5", switched to a 2.5" Flowmaster when that rusted out). This problem did not appear concurrent to the exhaust change. I haven't 100% ruled out a vacuum leak, though the spark plugs and high idle make me think it's running rich, not lean (though introducing a vacuum leak when idling rough doesn't seem to help).
Anecdote:
Was at the shop for brake work a couple months ago. They were pulling it in for work - according to them, they cold started it to pull it in front of the garage, then stopped it to open the door. It would not start again; they pulled plugs and found them wet and fouled. They installed new plugs and it got somewhat better, but still not perfect. The plug pics below are of the new plugs today.
Audio and pictures: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1q9ZPZJ6nH5lKDdfDQLW_rcmgN-Vh0VoN
Thanks for any help!
~Nick
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My Volvo has lasted longer than some of my friendships...
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Everyone has good ideas, so I'll just reply to myself to keep my work all kinda in one place.
I finally got a chance to ring out the harness at the ECU connector. Full results for that check are in the google drive folder. The only 2 things that didn't come out perfect were the throttle position sensor and the engine RPM signal.
- The TPS resistances all came back high (by between 12% and 22%) - maybe within the self-adjustment range of the ECU, but maybe not? Anyone have any wisdom on that?
- engine RPM signal came back with a very low voltage (~50%). May be due to the fact that the engine was cranking, not running? There's no rpm signal loss CEL (no CEL at all, actually), so I'm inclined to say it's just a glitch of my test setup perhaps.
At this point, looks like I need to start really digging down into all the vacuum connections. I sometimes smell fuel when the car has been sitting, so the charcoal canister connections may be wonky. I wouldn't be surprised if the brake booster was leaking too... I'm an electrical weenie by trade, so that's where I went first, but I guess I'll have to get my hands dirty after all!
Responses to others' posts below:
CeeBee1: I removed the hot air pipe long ago because 17-year-old me figured it was the quickest way to clean up the engine bay a bit. AMM reads fine resistance wise, though it's likely original.
Nahtanha: coolant temp sensor was replaced, reads good at the ECU connector
Rico S: all very good ideas! The (mostly) good electrical checks have now pointed me towards an air/vacuum leak somewhere for sure. A good cleaning of ground points is also pretty high on my to-do list.
Dave Stevens - I did toss in a new rotor and wires, but they unfortunately didn't change anything (that would be way too convenient)
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My Volvo has lasted longer than some of my friendships...
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Just another quick update, more for the archives than asking for an answer at this point. I'm dangerously close to firing up the parts cannon...
With the warmer weather the rough idle is no longer very pronounced, and goes away in seconds. The car still struggles to start, however, cranking many times and sputtering to life (vs. strongly firing). This only happens on the first dead cold start (after sitting overnight or longer); warm starts are generally fine.
Ended up finding one of the posts stripped out on my ignition coil. I replaced the coil but that did not fix the hard start problem.
At the suggestion of a friend, I tossed in a crank position sensor. I also cleaned the intake manifold grounds and replaced the valve cover to firewall ground strap. No improvement.
Compression test came out much better than expected: 178 psi on cyl 1, 172 psi on cyl 2, 170 psi on cyl 3, 174 psi on cyl 4. Spark plugs look fantastic - I initially thought they were a little on the lean side, but reviewing the picture I think I'm just being paranoid. Pic in google drive folder.
My next step is rebuilding the intake from the AMM back - I have the corrugated tube, throttle body gasket, manifold gasket, and a little o-ring for the throttle position sensor. While I'm doing that I'll try to get as much vacuum hose as I can find and redo those lines too - I'm sure they're getting a little iffy after 30 years...
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My Volvo has lasted longer than some of my friendships...
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"Just want to reiterate - when the engine has warmed up, it runs well and will restart on the first couple cranks with no bad symptoms. The above only happens on cold starts."
I'm surprised that there has been no mention of a Failed AMM--(Air Mass Meter)---what you refer to as the MAF.
The identical symptoms in my 87---with an earlier version of the LH injection system were cured with an AMM replacement.
Note that I know nothing technical about the 3.1 version or any version later than 1988, which incorporated the diagnostic 'light series box' to get Codes.
All I offer is --- get a hold of another AMM and swap it to see if if cures the problem. Though 3.1 AMM's are not that common.
Good luck
PS: one way(well known) that the AMM dies is that it gets cooked because the Air Box thermostat---sits in that box behind the air filter---fails to shunt the Hot Air from that silver pipe that runs from the Exhaust Manifold to that box---known a the Pre-Heater Hose. If the thermostat fails and the hot air dosen't get shut off after warm-up, the Hot Air toasts the sensor inside the AMM---.
SEE:
Failure of this part is the number one reason for MAF sensor failure on Volvos.
Many gas powered Volvos (and some diesel models) have a simple, thermostatically controlled flapper valve in the air filter box. This thermostat regulates the flow of fresh and pre-heated air in to the intake system. The purpose is to speed up the engine warm-up period in cold weather (primarily for emissions purposes but also for heater function.)
Pre-heated air comes to the air filter box through the aluminum pre-heat hose that is connected between the air filter box and the exhaust manifold or downpipe.
When this thermostat fails, it defaults to the pre-heated air position. This causes super heated air from the exhaust manifold to route through the Air Mass Sensor full-time. Left upchecked, the MAF will soon fail because the electronics overheat. It will also cause the engine to run very inefficiently as the engine management will excessively lean out the fuel mixture in response to the hot air. Engine management systems were never designed to run with ambient air in excess of 400°F.
Check your system on a day when the ambient temperature is above 50°F. The valve should be fully open to fresh air (not pre-heated.) If it is open to the pre-heat side, then you should replace the thermostat. Also, if the valve fails to reach full extension at hot and cold extreme, replace it.
This thermostat is part of an emission control which means we cannot give you advice on defeating this system. Keep in mind that the thermostat is really only designed to route hot air when the ambient air is below 40 degrees so this may not even be relevant in your environment.
https://www.ipdusa.com/products/5451/Air-Box-Filter-Housing-Flap-Valve-Thermostat-for-Volvo-Aftermarket-EL0320-1266826-103083
From the above IPD description: "It will also cause the engine to run very inefficiently as the engine management will excessively lean out the fuel mixture ""
It can no longer react to the ambient Temp---cause it's been toasted---at the MAF. THE MAF will ALWAYS RUN LEAN...even on start up cold...This is likely your problem...as was mine in my 87. The 'hi-tech' computer controlled 'Choke' is 'told' don't bother...it's all warm and good.
In Terms Of OLD SCHOOL carbed engines---it's like starting a Cold Engine without using the Choke ---stumble stall.... as in that Lawn Mower or Snow Blower--at 20 deg F........for the first few mins.
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Engine temp sensor for the ECU. Causes rich fuel start when failing.
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Go back to basics. Got spark and fuel? Both easily determined.
Now, from the archive of bad experiences SOME of the multitude of things it could be:
1/ Internal vacuum leak in the Brake Booster.
2/ Leaking intake manifold gasket (spray around joint with some burny stuff to determine a change in engine speed, therefore a manifold leak).
3/ The stiff, bright, green, shielded OXS signal wire is intermittantly shorting between its inner conductor and its shield.
4/ The case ground of the alternator is hinky. The alternator is isolated by rubber mounts.
5/ Ignition switch is hinky.
6/ The worst case scenario, a field mouse has been gnawing on your 240's wiring.
Richie (near The Burgh)
PS - Let us know how this shakes out. A 240 should fire up after about the third crank (chug, chug, chug) of the stater, then go down the road until it is call upon again. The good news is thse things are maddening, but usually something minor.
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Littlefish,
You state the following in your symptoms:
"Symptoms:
Cold starts are generally hard, and result in a lumpy, unstable, high idle (usually up to 1500 RPM). Sometimes the engine will not turn over on the first try. Trying to rev the engine results in sputtering. Audio of representative starting, idling, and revving are available at the google link at the bottom. Spark plugs appear to be fouling consistent with running rich (pics at google link).
Being very gentle on the throttle will make it drivable enough to get going, then it will smooth out and run well after a couple minutes (colder weather = takes longer to smooth out). It seems to me that it gets better when the O2 sensor warms up and the ECU goes into closed loop mode, but I haven't tested to confirm that. Even then, it will sometimes idle above 1k RPM.
Just want to reiterate - when the engine has warmed up, it runs well and will restart on the first couple cranks with no bad symptoms. The above only happens on cold starts."
The statement I'm looking at is this:
"Sometimes the engine will not turn over on the first try"
My question here is this. When you turn the key are you stating that it will not crank, or it will crank, but won't start. If it is that it won't crank, then I would look at your grounds and voltages from your battery to alternator to starter. If you have any type of voltage drop, and in this case it could be significant when cold, that it is not making good contact due to the metals being cold and contracted, and only once things start to warm up that they expand and are now making a better contact, but still not optimum.
I'm only throwing this out there as you have not exhausted all of your possibilities, though you have looked at a lot of things.
Take a look and let us know what you find, if anything. If I've taken you down the wrong rabbit hole, I apologize, but it at least had to be asked.
Regards,
Matt
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1989 - 245, 1990 - 245, 1991 - 245, and 1993 - 245
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Hi,
I can understand the the TLRD statement as I too can write some lengthy posts! I call it a balancing of having some entertainment with a desire to help mixed in with a mystery puzzle play!
I agree with Dave Stevens on the ignition system and most of all a bad rotor button being in the middle of the system but that’s mostly on a no hard to no-start situation.
A bad coil to distributor wire can be a culprit too on cold wet situations.
If it’s running fine otherwise when warm I have a tendency to slide away from that being the total issue.
The plugs look to be just a little bit on the smudgy side, but we know it’s not running right.
The insulator noses are typical for new plugs. The older plugs tell of a little oil burning but no timing issues.
Just make sure they are ALL gapped at .028 thousandths.
The harder start when warm should not be happening, if the fuel rail is getting and holding its proper dose of fuel all the time!
The pressure can drop off overnight but the rail must stay filled up?
It’s the one reason that the pumps run for one second when you first turn the ignition key on.
Try turning it on several times before actually rolling the engine over to see if it helps!
You said you change the FPR so that’s eliminated. That leaves a leaking fuel injector, that is a rare but then there are four of them replaced 20K ago for an unknown reason or conclusion that it was a problem?
Did you do it or some parts changers type mechanics?
That could be an open issue still, if something was getting in them from the pumps and pass the fuel filter?
How old is the filter and the pumps in the car?
What’s the mileage on the cars engine, by the way?
What was the story on changing out the injectors, back, then to begin with?
I would suggest verifying that both pumps are working especially the tank pump. It can cause premature wear on the main pump by causing undue cavitation noise from the rollers on the main pump rotor.
If the wear get bad enough they will not roll smoothly and can develop minute flats spots that can make for pump hesitation to start up. We are talking about an old pump, as it can take a lot of abuse, up too a limit!
Since up are getting hard starting when cold and now hot it’s my prime suspect alone with a check valve on the outlet side that helps hold fuel up in the fuel line up to the engine.
That’s a lot of volume that it can lose and a reason for slow starts cold being worse and now warm as an indicator of something going south, The gasoline.
In the case, south is correct, back to the tank, no matter which way the car is turned! (:-) ???? (:-)
As a side thought, On the variations in idle speed?
With this being a LH 3.1, of which seem to be rare, I would check it very closely with an ohmmeter. It’s like a volume control on a radio that maybe doing the scratching thing, that happens to speakers, but to the ECU.
Look for smooth variations of resistance through it range of motion, especially, right at the first coming off idle.
It must repeat exactly at the idle stop setting.
YOU seem to be knowledgeable in the workings of the car by talking about close loop operations.
For people on this board who are electronically inclined they might tell you to take voltage readings somewhere instead.
Others, like myself, just might consider that the IAC might need a bit of cleaning inspection routine instead! (:). Like the pumps it can also age too!
Entertaining myself again!
Phil
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Thanks for the thoughts so far! The car has ~251k miles on it now.
Distributor was my first thought, replaced the cap a couple months ago. No change. I filed down the rotor to the sharpest edge I could, since no one had one in stock locally. Sorry, forgot to mention 😶
I replaced the injectors myself because I suspected the car was running rich at the time. In hindsight, it was likely just the beginning of whatever problem I'm having now.
The car will start easily on a couple cranks after it's been warmed up, hard starts only happen when it's cold.
The fuel filter hasn't been replaced during my ownership, it's likely original. I have one to put in, but rust has foiled my attempts so far. The high pressure pump is also likely original, the in-tank lifter pump was replaced many years ago (~215k miles, early 2016? I forgot to write it down, guessing based on iPD order date). I always let the pumps pressurize before I start the car.
Idle air control valve was one of my other thoughts - it cycles crisply, and shining a flashlight on the inlet side doesn't reveal any gunk, but I'm planning on sending some carb cleaner down there anyways.
Phil, I assume you're talking about the throttle position sensor when you're suggesting resistance checks through the range of motion? I did clean it with 'deoxit' contact cleaner/reconditioner when I noticed there was a good deal of engine oil soaked through it (flame trap is clean, recently serviced). I'll have to spend some more attention on that, I only checked resistance at the limits.
Dave, Wires were last done at ~223.5k miles. I'll source new wires and a new rotor and see if it helps anything.
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My Volvo has lasted longer than some of my friendships...
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I agree with grey245 about multiple problems. Occasionally not cranking when you turn the key is a sign of a worn ignition switch, worn/dirty shifter PNP safety switch, a sticky starter solenoid, or a dead spot on the starter motor. All are increasingly common with our age of bricks. If leaning on the shift lever forward, back, left or right allows it to now be cranked then you know it’s the PNP switch. If only flicking the key back and forth a few times gets it to catch then either a worn ignition switch or the starter motor. If you can hear the solenoid trying to engage or if tapping solidly on the starter motor body with the end of a 2x4 (may take a dozen or more good taps) now allows it to crank then it’s the starter. Otherwise try shorting the starter terminals. If it now kicks over then the starter is okay. You then need to start using a meter to see how far voltage is getting through the ignition switch, PNP switch and to the starter at a moment when it can’t crank.
As for the rough cold start/idle, I’m leaning heavily to the dist rotor and the coil wire (especially if you didn't replace it last time) and if plugs are uniformly fouled as you suggest. What brand of wires? Pull all the ignition wires off, check for corrosion and make sure they're fully seated. If present, make sure the acorn nuts on the ends of the plugs haven’t worked their way loose. Make sure the plug wire clips aren’t weak or loose and solidly hold to the top of the plug (do all wires feel exactly the same when slowly wiggled/pulled off/reseated?) When you read the plugs, are any of the plugs coloured or all they all fouled black? Is there an initial puff of blue out the tail pipe after it’s been sitting? Is the battery in good condition? Do the dash or headlights brighten when the engine is revved? If you pull the vacuum hose off the fuel pressure regulator, can you see or smell gas. Once you’ve attended to the above then you may want to consider doing a compression check.
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Dave -still with 940's, prev 740/240/140/120 You'd think I'd have learned by now
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Hi to Dave Stevens and Brick Tank,
I’m enjoying all the attention you fellows are giving this thread but I’m afraid it may be turning into a spinning top with now a wobble.
The post from RicoS is pointing to a problem with interpreting statements about what is meant by “ turning over!”
Cranking or not, hitting some over and tuning with several hits or numbers of long cranking time with-in descriptions is trying to describe the real issue at their hearts!
Writing can be frustrating and anxious causing spotty descriptions.
Add on trying to grasp an understanding of what is happening “when,” doesn’t help with the story either.
We see it all the time from many posters missing details like the CELight.
I think stuff leaves us with thoughts as everyone’s brains are spreading their tracks in not so a logical manner too! Armchair diagnostics can only be entertained to a point!
It’s then, we are all much like a Spinning Top.
Unless you are looking directly at the tip and the weighted top end speed, it’s definitely harder to say when and where it is going to lay down.
Reading and listening is all we have unless the pictures are well choreographed.
In my case, I couldn’t get the audio files to “unZip” with any program that I know of for an iPad.
So maybe, I missed the cranking issue in there?
I haven’t read where LittleFish ever said there was a problem with the engine not cranking, like in totally dead from the key rotation.
In fact he says he spins up the pumps! He is more aware that the ECU does that without a CPS signal beforehand.
I hope he is picking up on the main pump operations more, with our posts!
I agree it’s a couple problems being masked by the fuel management and compensation systems.
The IAC has a spring return on these 89+ models so, it’s not likely to be sticking enough to cause an irrational higher idle. Something is not dialed or dialing in smoothly.
I have been waiting and reading over the posts that says!
The car is drivable and it’s a cold issue with instability during that time, mostly!
We could speculate a low thermostat or coolant sensor on a normal car.
This car, we are learning, has original equipment in the fuel management area with used or new parts elsewhere in substitution, of which, in itself can be a “surface pit” for my spinning top theory!
We know these car have been really reliable over the years but there are limits that have to recognized.
We know it doesn’t take much money to keep them running correctly as long as they stay away from over zealous mechanics under the pressure of making a living!
New owners or older owners of these cars have to realize to keep things in perspective of values!
A value is being able to put as little as a couple car payments into these “easy to maintain vehicles” is beneficial in the long term of making ends meet.
He just needs to invest a little more towards a prestigious idea to have something more different than all the other “over priced and overrated” look-a-like cars!
If it weren’t for the manufacturers badges, I would have more trouble know what type of, bobtailed SUV is around me!
When I say, “around me” I mean that I can fairly easily keep up with them! We all seem to never go much over the speed limit everywhere!
Yes, they may jet away or pass me on four lane roads in town, but most of the time, they wait for me at the next light and do the same thing all over again! Humans can easily be mood driven maniacs!
Anyways, that’s when, I can read the badges or the wheel symbols.
The wheels are the biggest things on these cars nowadays, except for the price of their FWD tires!
A rebound of sticker shock, in a couple years, for most Newbie drivers!
Phil
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This is an interesting one because to me it seems you may have more than one problem.
I dealt with a slowly failing FPR a couple of years ago, and only some soot build up on the plugs told me something was starting to go wrong a long time in advance. Then things suddenly got worse and I would get a good start immediately followed by rough running like in your audio file, smoothing out after the O2 sensor started working.
The tell tale signs were clearly present by that time: a blueish grey smoke coming from the exhaust accompanied by the pungeant smell of part burnt gas. Unmistakably the smell of a rich running engine.
By that time, the black layer of soot in the exhaust had become visibly thicker.
At this point I would suspect a bad FPR, however, you say you replaced it. Was it a new one, or a known good used one?
The best way to determine its health would be to measure the fuel pressure on the rail.
I, however, did not experience high idle nor bad starting, so that TPS certainly needs some attention too.
Use brake or carb cleaners only on the IAC, not on on a throttle body. They are too agressive and may damage the seals on it.
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I’d be highly suspicious of the ignition side. Something as simple as a worn distributor cap and rotor and old ignition wires, incl. the coil wire, can cause exactly those symptoms in my experience. These are all wear items and it's generally not worth any diagnosis if these are anywhere near overdue. I’ve also had a badly worn distributor in a rather high mileage 240 giving slightly similar starting problems, but I'd address those other issues first. Wet plugs pretty much eliminates the fuel side. BTW, your thoroughness is appreciated. It not only cuts down on our guesswork here, it also gives us a better idea of your level of experience and the general condition of your vehicle. Please remember to reply back with how you make out so others can benefit, not just for future reference by someone doing a search, but also that’s how we learn from each other here.
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Dave -still with 940's, prev 740/240/140/120 You'd think I'd have learned by now
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