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Hello Volvo experts, I have an 1989 240 Wagon. One challenge that has come up recently is that there has been an excess of water/clear liquid in the floor mat area of the passengers side in the front.
There has been a larger snow fall here recently and I haven't driven the car a lot since all the snow has come and gone. The door of the car is dry, the windows are sealed shut. the dashboard is clean and dry. But my passenger floor mat had a puddle in it and water has also seeped into the carpet below that floor mat.
Has this happened to anyone else? Looking for some support to trouble shoot this issue.
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I have two '89s. Both have had this issue, as well as a daughter's '91:
--
Art Benstein near Baltimore
What do you call a fish with no eye?
Fsh.
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Hi Art and Mike.
Out in California, we have been talking about water in the wrong places for most the week
We have had flooding in places up and down the whole west coast several times and I move up and down the coastline with the seasons.
Luckily with minimal impact as I’m high enough or it drains very quickly away.
Some years do appear worse than others that will actually hit the national news.
Like the recent Midwest cold blast down from the Arctic every few years.
In my memories some exceptionally heavy rains have appeared about thirty years apart for Central California are or even Northern California for that matter.
Both areas start with several saturating rain deposits much like random surf changes or King tides at the wrong times. And then there’s the “Sneaker” wave.
Both terms are coined as an “atmospheric river” for central California terminology.
Up north some can be out of the Alaskan trough or from Japan.
In Northern California it’s the same
After a so called perpetual string then it is also called a “Pineapple Expresses” term develops.
These are straight from the Hawaiian islands region. Hence the pineapple reference.
This has been going on for several weeks up North from both. We get 2-4 times rain as much rain coasts wise, on average, than Southern California Coasts.
Most of the time my cars are kept inside and do not get these exposures to either at either places.
But this time I got caught by surprise and luckily not in flood waters, except I couldn’t leave my hill for a couple days until it drained away.
I have read about leak locations in our cars over the years so I keep on a look for leaks on all my cars to be on the safe side.
Well, I have been nursing a 17 year concern of a windshield delaminating in the lower left corner the windshield on my 1991.
The PO stated she had the windshield replaced for a leak earlier, on the drivers side but she wasn’t sure that it was gone. It developed rust under the seal due to a poor installation.
Well? now I’m south and having a mobile windshield service replacing it. This service is not offered up North, nearby me so it’s this winter’s project.
This will be done on my premises under my control.
I’m repairing a rusty pinch weld seat area with the POR 15 system.
Doing it myself, because my skill set cannot be as poor as previously done because I will care.
Not paying for something that can be hidden so well.
The mobile service I’m using was vetted by myself as he did a car two doors down and I watched and learned.
Todays BMWs have to have their windshields calibrated to light and rain sensors plus cameras on board. It’s a $400 dealers charge!
A customer bought his own windshield separately from what the dealer was listing to save money.
It was all in and later the headlights to drive with. They wouldn’t come on.
He had to charge him labor again to replace its windshield for lack of a connection below the dash to the windshield.
Something about the daytime running lights? I guess you just don’t jumper around that GERMAN system in any way?
The latest rain fall has hit the 1992 was over 3.5 inches in one day.
Good time to do the touch and feel after that. I would have never used a hose for that long with the way water shortages have been.
The car received a pronounced but tiny leak spotted from exactly where Art Benstein shows in his photo.
Just enough to dampen the joint between the top of the carpet and the dashes underpinning materials.
The trickle is just as wide as in his photo too!
I stuffed paper towels up there above the electronics in the interim.
I have marked it up as a minor leakage as the windshield in this car was replaced through the Wagonmeister when he refurbished the whole car seven years ago.
He said it was “A diamond in the rough” His exacting terminology was right on!
It’s all age related to that grommet just like Art is showing us.
Another great caring photo from our main man over the years!
I made an earlier post trying to get to here and based its on what I read on the BRICKBOARD!
Everyone should heed this post. Seal that seal up better.
Now to figure how to do that times six! (:-(
Phil
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Hi Machine Man,
For what it's worth, a note of caution if you're using urethane sealant. I don't know if this applies to butyl.
I've replaced several 240 windshields that needed pinch weld repairs. I do the prep work myself for obvious reasons, and then have the option of calling a mobile installer or installing it myself.
The owner-operator where I source glass, supplies, and advice told me that they do not guarantee for leaks on pinch welds that have been painted. The reason he gave is that the paint off-gasses for up to 3 months and these gasses can compromise the bond.
He felt that 3 months was excessive, but recommended at least a few weeks or more if it was not inconvenient. This was glass I was installing myself so there was no warranty issue.
He also advised to scuff up the paint with scotch bright and use the optional primer that comes in a small finger nail polish like bottle. He said the primer would cover any pinch weld flash that might be nicked in the scuffing.
The procedure has worked well for me. I've also been very happy with the Chinese replacement glass. From the rocks they've blocked so far, I have a gut feeing that the thinner material is more resilient than the original.
Regards, Peter
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Hi Art,
I got around to pulling out the wiper motor assembly on my 1992 today.
More rain tonight so it’s in the garage.
One new windshield on another car is now getting tested.
While taking the under side crank arm off everything looked nice and even the rubber grommet look tight.
I couldn’t tell where it had ever leaked from or no trails onto the metal body part of the car.
The center of it look nice too.
Then I went topside and got the wiper motor out along with a terrific amount of yank.
There was a big gob of black sticky sealant around the housing shaft filling out so much to be pulled through the hole with the wiper unit.
Is that normal I’m asking now?
I sure don’t remember pulling one out from a junkyard car that hard any way.
It was stacked up in between the upper mounting panel on the front of the cowling and wrapped around down to the inner passenger compartments firewall.
Ending on top that the grommet it seemed.
When I pulled it left the grommet tightly in its hole. I didn’t move around like in your video.
I had to push hard with a nylon body tool to have it exit the hole into the cabin.
All that packing and the grommet was covered in vegetation of decayed leaves along with dirt. The dirt was probably leaves rotted.
I picked out with needle nose pliers and vacuum the rest. About a half cup of fluff.
During the pick out I looked from above down the grommet hole with a light. I could see that the cowling has a lower trough or pan running from the right to the left.
The surprising part was that the pan ends right over the wiper housing.
Everything travels and gets dumped right onto that pile of sticky butyl and of course the grommet.
I wonder was the butyl was from the factory or a repair done any previous owners?
I’m now contemplating how to extend that trough’s edge to dump water & debris past the wipers housing.
So far I’m thinking to use some 3M VHB tape to hold a semi flexible material to the bottom of the trough.
Maybe a piece of plastic can lid warmed slightly to fit the trough’s shape. That tape is strong and will underneath out of the weather.
I wonder why they let it be short right there?
It needed about two more inches, for good measure, from what I can see.
There isn’t a whole lot of room between the two holes and having to work up towards the pan.
With all that goop the water could not only sit there over time but get helped in by the water fall above it.
This modification needs to be simple if I do it five more times.
The grommet in there is the same Volvo part number you posted and the motor looks original.
I was halfway expecting a gasket for the housing but not one made in this manner with its quantity used.
All of this make me wonder how about the two wiper arm housings.
Are they sealed with butyl tape or does that trough pan cover them all the way across and therefore, it doesn’t matter?
They should be bolted to the inside firewall with a sheet gasket of some type?
I ask you this as you have been all over these cars and apparently inside the thermostats too with pictures!
(:-)
Phil
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Hi Phil,
Pretty big gobs of leaf encrusted butyl have come out from behind wiper motors in my experience. Can't say whether any were factory original, but the butyl seal between the gear assembly and the outer firewall isn't as crucial, in my opinion, as the grommet on the inner firewall. This is obvious to you now, when you see how that inner panel under the cowl dumps right on it.
My guess is the wiper motor gets serviced several times over a 30-year period, and the attention given that butyl seal is overkill. Interesting hearing your old grommet is tight in the hole. Maybe only Costanza had a problem with shrinkage.
--
Art Benstein near Baltimore
Life is like a roll of toilet paper.
The closer you get to the end the faster it goes.
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Hi Art,
I’m sure glad to see you are up to posting your wisdom.
The video was great as I don’t remember feeling for slop like that.
I Never thought of an O-ring put inside the groove.
That would also put more mechanical pressure in towards the grommet’s center and inner circumference of the body hole.
I got to thinking after doing my post on my leak that I may have worked on one of my cars before.
I think it was my 1986 wagon. That was a long long time ago.
I believe I just packed the lips of the seal with electrician duct seal.
It’s like a glob of modeling clay that Ace Hardware sells.
It might be Garner Bender brand. A one pound block is about $4.00. Lasts a long time for me in a jar.
How well it has been holding up in the wagon is questionable.
I will definitely give that some consideration when inspecting how it was supposed to work to seal out the water.
Priorities for sure!
I understand how it’s possible to buy or have some replacements parts and never put them in.
That’s what boxes and shelves are for.
If you didn’t get what you needed for Christmas, just tear in to an often neglected cabinet.
I have 18 Stanley cabinets I got them on a nice close sale at a Big Box Store. $50 each.
Luckily some are empty but I had big plans! (:)
I left 8 not assembled and still in their boxes.
NOS (New Old Stashed) (:)
Now they’re obsolete, no less.
Check out the information.
https://buygaragecabinet.blogspot.com/2013/03/stanley-716201r-16-14-inch-deep-wall.html
Phil
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posted by
someone claiming to be Mike
on
Wed Jan 11 14:15 CST 2023 [ RELATED]
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Check you rocker panels - they have drains. I put a wire up mine and about 2 its came out each side. Can seep in through the access holes into floor area like mine did.
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I was given a free, running and registered 740 wagon. There was a plastic plug on the inside of the rocker panel - I could see that the rocker was half full of water!
Check and clear all your body drains.
When I was looking for my first Volvo, I saw a few that had severs boby rot.
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There are a few drain slits along the bottom of the rocker that need to be kept clear. A wire hook is all you need. The bottoms of the doors also have drains.
--
Dave -still with 940's, prev 740/240/140/120 You'd think I'd have learned by now
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Ive had this issue with my 240 for a while.
I drilled a few holes in the floor to let the water back out and put tape on the bottom of the windshield near the trim, and the "chrome" trim, revealing only the gap, then pumped a tube of black sealant along there. I had to work it into the crack with a putty knife to fill the void under the trim. once done I pulled the tape and dint leave any sealant to show so it looks fine. I got a whole tube under that shiny trim.
I think the only way to remove the trim is to cut the rubber away, I't s hard like rock.
if I need to reuse the trim I can dissolve the window sealant in solvent after cutting the chrome strip away.
the right way would be to replace the windshield gasket but I decided the only way to remove that trim and put it back is to replace the rubber seal. i didn't feel like pulling the windshield out so I was looking for a quick and inexpensive fix.
I think it may have slowed the leak but it didn't stop it. I might try putting a strip of that aluminum heat tape ( for air ducts in houses ) along the windshield and over the trim.
the car since blew a headgasket so its waiting for my attention and sitting in the rain and snow so mine is probably soaked again. I need to dry it out and a little tarp just over the windshiled can help as a temporary fix.
for a while I just put a small tarp tied to a few litre milk jugs full of sand Id' just put it over the windshiled when parked. Not perfect but better than having all the water on the floor.
water here will corrode the fuesbox so you might want to disconnect the battery and pull the fuse strip out. Its just held by a couple of screws, then you have about a foot or so of extra length on the wires so you can access it better and clean it up. all those spade connectors and the fuses, might be green with corrosion so I would check that now.
R V places may have either salt blocks or desiccant and you can put that in the car to suck up water condensation and dry it in the oven or just place it on top of your hot water tank for a week where it's dry and toasty. I have a few large bags of desiccant and Ill do that sometimes. In summer I just leave it on the dash in the sun and it dries up nicely.
a heater and a big fan can help a lot to dry things up. If it gets like an inch of water then I'd drill some holes in the floor. I did that and it seemed silly to need to but hten again, it did let a lot of it run out. I dont think a few 1/4" holes under the carpets hurt things very much.
if you look into the car and the water line is up to the windows you have larger issues ;-) the ECU and ICU are up off the floor at least.
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Although there are a number of possibilities, including those others mention, one thing that is well known with 240s is the windshield glass developing leaks around the seal, especially at the sides and lower corners. It can happen with the original windshields, but is even more common with replacement windshields. It may take a few years to develop. Often it first becomes noticeable after a car wash or a bad rain storm.
The seal can eventually fail if the replacement glass wasn't formed perfectly to match the window frame curve or if the glass was installed in less than a perfectly centred orientation, which for 240s seems more critical than many other cars if you talk to the techs.
Another issue is if body rust develops in the window frame behind the seal. This is more common in the 240 windshields older than yours that weren't in a full rubber window gasket. Surface rust would often develop starting near the window clips or any paint areas that may have been nicked or worn through. This often happens out of sight behind the window trim until it gets either so crusty or perforated that water can creep by. Not as likely in your car, but do keep that in mind, especially if you spot rust stains in the paint beginning near the window seal.
One way to try isolating an exterior leak such as yours is to expose the passenger footwell firewall and outer wall area, peeling back the carpets a bit, also pulling the glove box for visibility. Starting from the top, shoot a high pressure hose around the edge of the windshield, also around the wiper arm pivot in the cowling and as well from under the hood shooting around the base of the wiper motor and any other through the firewall gasket area. Have someone inside with a paper towel for blotting, carefully watching with a good light to try spotting any leak under hose pressure.
If you don't have time to do this, an interim step is to try stopping water infiltration by using duct or packing tape all around the right side of the window trim so water can't get behind the trim. If the problem does go away then you'll know that was likely it. If you do identify a window frame leak, a good temporary fix is to shoot silicone sealant behind the window trim. The proper fix is to pull the glass, repair the rusted area and sealing surfaces, then re-install the glass.
Other possibilitiea are blocked sun roof tray drains, worn and poorly sealing rubber door gaskets and, worst of all, a leaking heater core. As mentioned, the windshield wiper assembly has a number of penetrations through the firewall. Be glad yours isn't a 700/900 as a heater core would be at the top of my suspect list for wet carpets in the passenger footwell.
--
Dave -still with 940's, prev 740/240/140/120 You'd think I'd have learned by now
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There are a few spots to check -- the cover seal on the r/s windshield wiper pivot -- the seal between the wiper motor and the body (a sticky putty like substance) -- the r/s lower corner of the windshield. If you remove the glovebox you'll get a much better look at the area. Look for staining -- or have an assistant flood the area while you observe. - Dave
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Does the wagon have a sunroof?
I have a few other Volvo wagons (different models) that exhibit the same symptom when the sunroof drain tube becomes blocked. Water collects in the sunroof gutter and spills down the A pillar and collects on the floor well.
I've never seen this on a 240, so maybe others can chime in.
Thanks.
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Unfortunately my 240 wagon does not have a sunroof.
Thanks.
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Hi,
I will run you through some quick ideas as it’s late for me.
I wouldn’t say unfortunately you don’t have a sun roof.
I have one in my 1991 sedan and never use it that often.
Maybe I’m too old but when you don’t have too much hair a hat doesn’t need that much airing out.
No hair mean no oil is needed so then no accumulation of that is going on. (:-)
It’s very possible that you have a leaking windshield due to rust under the gasket, if it has ever been changed out from the original windshield?
The next thing is to look under the dashboard behind the glove box.
Up above the electronics mounted there is the place where the wiper motor comes through the firewall.
There is a large rubber grommet right there that does shrink over time, from what I have read.
Also if, the wiper motor has been removed for replacement or repair, that seal will get disturbed.
It will not be pliable enough to reuse again without adding sealant.
Duct seal from a hardware store can be used instead of messy silicone.
It’s cheaper and is not hygroscopic as many silicones are. Those can promote rust and since you are in a snow belt region, where salt might be used, you don’t need that!
Look to see if any dust has been rinsed away in a trail going downwards from up high.
Hose down around the windshield mostly first and see if the water seeps in.
When the hood is closed it is less likely to let water in the wiper motor mount location but is not immune or fool proof.
You might want to put some paper towels up above the electronics, temporarily, for sure. Look for something that get dampened.
You don’t want water getting into the ECU or the system relay tied around there.
A Water puddle on the top of mat means it travel outward from the firewall and possibly on duct work.
Water beneath a carpet means it ran down the slope from the firewall.
If the car has AC there is a rubber boot that is supposed to seal both lines going to the evaporator.
Check its integrity.
If it was summer time or you run defrost in winter, an awful lot, then it could be condensation.
It’s possible that the rubber duck bill device that drains, the catch pan, is plugged up.
You have to remove the console side panel and feel under the pan to give a squeeze or go under the car to reach it above the transmission.
Now for the scary part and that is a coolant leak.
So make sure it’s just plain water in the combination foam/rubber mat under the carpet.
Hope it doesn’t smell or feel like antifreeze.
If the inside of a windshield gets an oily film on it that smears while cleaning, not good!
Let’s know what you find.
Good night.
Phil
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