posted by
someone claiming to be Paul Seminara
on
Sun Apr 29 12:57 CST 2001 [ RELATED]
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Yep my data now proves it out. These are NOT single sample data points - they are averages over time with two gasoline suppliers in my area. I started this study last fall. The Volvo I used is not known to be the most fuel efficient of the 240 series (1985 245Ti), the driving with each tank was very similar – commuting to work on country roads 35-55 mph, with small amounts of stop and go near each termination of the drive. Oil through most of the time study was Amsoil 10W-30, then the last 5 tanks with Series 2000 20W-50 (there was no noted change in MPG with oil change)
Results:
Unocal 76 = 24.4 MPG
Chevron = 21.7 MPG
The data points are closely rapped around these means….and no I didn’t run the stats, I can tell the difference is significant!!
I know it's not a double blind study, and again I didn't alter my driving style for the fuel (couldn't do that if I wanted to).
Anyone care to explain WHY????????????
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posted by
someone claiming to be JohnB
on
Mon Apr 30 00:39 CST 2001 [ RELATED]
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There was an article in the Wash Post, probably syndicated anyway, upshot of article was the balkanization of fuel formulae across the HEW HESS HAY courtesy of those fine folk at EPA and the ever popular ethanol/farm lobby.
Oxygenated fuel is required in some places, not in others is an oversimplification but will do for starters. In MD, for example, the Baltimore area requires a quite different fuel cocktail than Cumberland in the Western end of the state. In some areas of Illinois, another example was that four different fuel formulations were required within a 300 mile distance.
I wouldn't be surprised if the BTU content of the various fuels varied by a significant amount, not to mention the varied operational effects in engines.
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posted by
someone claiming to be John Sargent
on
Sun Apr 29 15:26 CST 2001 [ RELATED]
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No offense to your studies, but there are the many variables in operating a car make it poor for a scientific study of the energy content of different brands of gasoline. My memory is rusty, but I have taken several graduate credit classes on statistics, and the statistcal analysis of your figures would reveal potential errors. As other posters have mentioned, there are many variables to effect your study in a car. Laboratory analysis will control things like quantity of fuel, and temperature during the test. I took a Fuels and Lubricants class while getting my BS in engineering. We sampled the fuel at the local gas stations and ran tests in the school's lab. There were differences in the fuels in octane and specific energy per gallon, but I don't remember anything as significant as the 12% you report. There were significant differences in octane within the gasoline we tested. Keep up the good work!
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posted by
someone claiming to be Paul Seminara
on
Sun Apr 29 16:22 CST 2001 [ RELATED]
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Hmm...yeah I'm not saying it's purely an octane thing....check the numbers I posted to George. (I was just razzing on you with the other post)
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posted by
someone claiming to be George Downs
on
Sun Apr 29 15:06 CST 2001 [ RELATED]
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Oye Pablito!!
If you can't do it easily I have a calculator that will do stats.
e-mail me the numbers if so inclined.
I wonder if you have an "oxygenated" (partly burned already)
fuel from Chevron. Might be worth talking to Chevron's PR folks
and see what they say.
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posted by
someone claiming to be Paul Seminara
on
Sun Apr 29 16:18 CST 2001 [ RELATED]
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76 Chevron
24.9 21.4
24.3 21.2
24.1 21.6
25 22.3
23.9 20.6
24.2 21.5
24.4 21.8
25.2 22.7
23.9 21.8
Mean 24.43 21.66
Std Dev (n-1) 0.46 0.57
I hope this formats OK. I don't have the software at home to run a T test, or other comparison of standard deviations (about the respective means) to truly say there is a statistically significant difference. (Nor can I say if the sample size is large enough (calculate the deg freedom)- probably NOT)
But hey it's better than most allegations that fly!!
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posted by
someone claiming to be George Downs
on
Mon Apr 30 03:06 CST 2001 [ RELATED]
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I would say that for the purpose of this exercise, YOUR degrees of
freedom probably only amounts to one (which brand?)
There are a lot of things that could affect it but if you have
controlled them to the extent of YOUR ability, no sweat.
Obviously you have no control over what lot numbers, flat tires
allowing delays and evaporation of light ends, etc (we found that you
can increase the octane of many kinds of gasoline by storing it in a
plastic jug).
What counts is that your means are over 3 standard deviations apart
and even your closest values between the two are more than 2 standard
deviations apart, so they ARE different. (My calculator won't do much
more than what you did, only COV.)
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posted by
someone claiming to be Michael
on
Sun Apr 29 18:44 CST 2001 [ RELATED]
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If you have MS Excel, you can do quite a few statistical calculations. I got the same mean as you did, but I got different standard deviations (.485 and .609 respectively for the two samples). Why did you include the means in the calculation of the standard deviation?
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posted by
someone claiming to be Paul Seminara
on
Mon Apr 30 00:54 CST 2001 [ RELATED]
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I only have Microsoft Works Spreadsheet at home but it does do std deviation. It did NOT include the mean in the calc. (If it did I think my number would be even LOWER). I suspect my numbers (.46 and .57 vs. .49 and .61) are lower yours truly is n-1 (sigma) and mine is classic std dev (n).
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posted by
someone claiming to be Michael
on
Mon Apr 30 12:06 CST 2001 [ RELATED]
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OK, I see. When I did the calculation in excel I was trying to figure out why they were different, and when I added in the means it came out the same as your calculations.
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posted by
someone claiming to be Haroon
on
Sun Apr 29 15:03 CST 2001 [ RELATED]
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How does gas distribution work? Where I live, small town, there are only two oil companies that supply gas to all the gas stations here.
All of the gas stations get their gas from the same suppliers, the ol cheapo no name and the chevron and mobils.
My guess is that the company gets unrefined gas, refines it and adds the additives for each gas station and supplies it them?
I am saying this because a chevron gas station owner was complaining to the gas company saying that it was selling cheaper gas to texaco and not to him so the gave him the same price (insider info).
I should follow a gas truck when it makes stops at the cheapo gas stations and see if it goes to the goods too.
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posted by
someone claiming to be Lavesh
on
Sun Apr 29 14:44 CST 2001 [ RELATED]
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Hate to nitpick since you're a frequent and credible poster on the BB, so forgive me for doing so...
I wonder about quality control; about the age and supply-turnover among the brands you used. Did you visit the same station each time for each supply? How long was each brand in the tank? Which brand was in the tank first, or did you alternate? Could one brand have affected the next brand? Atmospheric conditions(headwinds, humidity)? Traffic density? Tire pressure? Air Filter?
Maybe you had octane differences(due to quality control) which affected the pre-ignition just enough? Maybe you got less, or more, octane than you paid for???
THis was not a controlled experiment(IMO), and there's no way to do that using just one vehicle -- since you can't use both fuels simultaneously. However, if you could get yourself a precision fuel-flow meter connected to the supply line of your car, you'd get results I'd have more reliance in. Or maybe a dyno test.
However, I understand the Chevron may have Techron in it, which I put in my '93 240 every few months, which quiets the engine(a bit) and gives it a "refined" feeling for a while. I've never noticed a MPG difference by adding Techron. I HAVE noticed an increase in MPG during the first few months of a new air filter in that car.
Anyway, I'm in New Jersey where there's no such thing as Unocal 76 OR Chevron. But Chevron was WORSE for you, so..????
BTW, in my '97 S90 ("My other Volvo is a 240") I just hit 27.5 mpg on the last tank, when I usually get about 24 mpg during my 60-mile commute of mostly freeway driving. My low-fuel light usually comes On at around 450 miles on the trip-meter and that's when I usually take it to about 480 before filling-up; several times in the WInter it came On really close to 400+ which is lousy MPG. This time I hit 500 miles before the light came On and I thought the warning light had quit working until then, but no -- I hit the station at 506 miles with 2.5 gallons or thereabouts still left in the tank. (Capacity of 21.5 gals. and fill-up of about 19 gals.)
I wonder if I might actually hit 28 or even 29 if I follow the speed limits exactly(!) ;->
On the last tank, it was the first time in several months I could remember keeping it in the D position for the entire tank. But I think THAT has something to do with the warmer weather. My mileage usually drops in the Winter and looks like it just came back for the Summer.
Sorry for the long post, but my $0.02.
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posted by
someone claiming to be Paul Seminara
on
Sun Apr 29 15:29 CST 2001 [ RELATED]
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I don’t consider your post nitpicking –GREAT QUESTIONS - I know this wasn’t a controlled experiment, but I think there still is enough difference to post – Tom the Shad had posted lots of stuff on this a few weeks back – I told him to wait for my data.
I have no idea how long the gas was rotting at the stations….and for Chevron I used one station (there is only one near me) and for 76 three different stations but one mostly - all but two tanks. I tried to use each brand for three consecutive tanks. Yes there could be interaction between brands (but hey this is real life!!) I did try to keep the tire pressure uniform – neighbors think I’m nuts with the air compressor. I did NOT keep a weather log and I know the warmer the better for my car over the last three years. Traffic is pretty constant. Air filter kept very clean. I’m pretty sure gas varies all over the tolerance range….
Now here’s another thing to think about: the car used to have an AW-71 with a 3.9 rear. (prior to last summer so not part of this fall/winter/spring study) One lucky time I got over 21 mpg!!! (It now has a M46 with a new 3.91 rear)
The 850 always get better mileage but that’s a different forum!!
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posted by
someone claiming to be John Sargent
on
Sun Apr 29 15:33 CST 2001 [ RELATED]
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You need to separate your study into two parts; one with the AW71 and one with the M46.
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posted by
someone claiming to be Paul Seminara
on
Sun Apr 29 15:41 CST 2001 [ RELATED]
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wake up or get some sleep :) ...reread my post.....the study had nothing to do with the AW71 it's been out for almost a year. (I just added that for Lavesh's interest) The study started in the Fall of 2000!
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posted by
someone claiming to be John Sargent
on
Sun Apr 29 17:20 CST 2001 [ RELATED]
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I did not see the time period of the study in your original post.
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posted by
someone claiming to be Steve Ringlee
on
Sun Apr 29 13:51 CST 2001 [ RELATED]
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Seasonal differences (i.e., one supplier during the winter and one during the summer?) How many tanks? How many miles? Ethanol blends? Notice any idle quality differences between brands?
I do notice a BIG difference in idle quality from various brands around here in Iowa. Amoco works fine. Local convenience stores' gas quickly clogs the injectors and idle goes down. I am told that Shell in California has had similar problems.
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posted by
someone claiming to be Paul Seminara
on
Sun Apr 29 15:28 CST 2001 [ RELATED]
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1) Don't think they have switched over to summer gas in the PNW yet. (So I assume this is all winter pee)
2) 18 tanks
3) about 4700 miles
4) maybe some additive ethanol, but none was sold as an ethanol blend
5) no difference in idle, but both ping on HARD acceleration, 76 pings less though, hmmm....
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posted by
someone claiming to be Cory
on
Sun Apr 29 17:06 CST 2001 [ RELATED]
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As a former Wholesale Sales Manager, for a once semi large Oil Company (Getty Oil) for Northern California, Oregon, and Washington, I thought I would add a few cents of "inside" information.
First, all gas for each octane range, from all brands, is the same except for the additives that each company might add. Additives sometimes consist of good things, like Chevron's Techron, but mostly they contain dyes that color the various product grades. Different Companies use different colors to id the various grades, and thus use different additives. There are also summer, winter, and regional mixes for "lower pollution/emissions" (these can cause lower mpg, often by about 10%).
The Major Oil Companies all have deals where they exchange product on a regional basis. Meaning, for example, that if one Company has a Plant in say Portland Oregon, but not in the Bay Area, and another a Plant in the Bay Area, but not Portland, they might work a deal out to exchange product. At Getty, for example, we had a big plant in Bakersfield, California, and just about every other company pulled product from our racks. The additives (a few big "squirts") for each "Brand" are added at the loading rack, just before the fuel goes into the tanker truck.
I sold gas that ended up being sold under about every brand name you could buy from, from cheap Independants, to your Biggie's. And, just because you bought from a name Brand did not mean you even got their additives. Depends on each Dealers deal with their Company.
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posted by
someone claiming to be dave lotman
on
Mon Apr 30 04:05 CST 2001 [ RELATED]
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Wow,
This sounds just like how the soda companys distribute and mix their
products. hehe.
Dave 82 242ti
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posted by
someone claiming to be Cory
on
Mon Apr 30 06:09 CST 2001 [ RELATED]
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Dave,
I buy my fuel by price (cheap), from Stations that sell a lot of gas, and then add fuel system cleaners, like Chevron's Techron Clean-up, every 3000 miles or so, myself.
High volume Gas Stations have "fresher" gas, and usually do better job of keeping their storage tanks free of water and the pump filters changed.
Fresher fuel is more important in the winter because the alcohol based additives attract water, and as they do, lose their effectivness, as this further reduces the energy the fuel produces. These fuels have lower energy to start with, and can cause hard starting, poor mpg, and other fuel related problems.
Alcohol based fuels can also be great fuel system cleaners, which can account for injector clogging stories you hear about. When these fuels were first introduced, the Oil Companies had a lot of claims from Customers for injector repairs caused by their gas. These were mostly from cars that were negelected, little old lady rigs, and from those who never topped off their tanks (the $5 fill up crowd), that had years of gunk freed up and released in one big clogging shot.
Running full tanks, once a year fuel filer changes, and adding fuel system cleaners yourself, is far more important than the brand name on the pump.
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