I know it's well-documented about if, why and how to do it, but I have a question:

Everything I read says use discs from a 122. I have discs from a 1964 (or thereabouts) P1800. Is there a difference? I hate to find out the hard way.

Thanks in advance!

Kermit,

Are you talking about front discs? The 64 1800 wouldn't have rear discs, yet that's where this whole discussion has been. Just wondering. If you are thinking about front disks, it seems you could just swap the entire steering knuckle, stub axle, rotor, and calopers onto the 544. The upper ball joints changed some time around there, but I think 66 was the watershed year for that. So things should just bolt in. Hmmmm...

Thanks - yep, I was talking about the front brakes, which is all I will do for now.

He can't. The 544 uses a king pin. The trouble with the conventionally documented way of doing it is that it mucks up the turning circle because the shock needs to be moved to the front of the stub axle. A while ago Leonard posted and he positioned the shock a la 140. He sent me a JPEG and it looked a very neat solution.

My solution also works very well. Welded the caliper brackets and put the caliper in front of the wheel line, swapping the calipers from left to right and vise versa so the bleed nipple stays on top. This means the shock can stay where it is without affecting clearance. The 544 I did it to is historic rallied so I can't move the shock absorber mount.

Regards

I have the calipers on the front of my 544, as well. However I did no welding...(???) just use the opposite caliper mount plates and the caliper just clears the tie rod end. Problem I've had is the backs locking up when the fronts discs are just getting going. An aftermarket balancer doesn't have enough range to eliminate the rear lock up. I'd have to say the car was able to stop shorter and safer with drums....

The left and right caliper brackets are essentially identical, apart of course from the positioning of the four holes that bolt them to the stubaxle assembly. I positioned the caliper ar the front and it just clears the tie rod end as you say, and is almost up against the king pin.

I used an allen bolt at the top to make it easier to get at it. I found that when I re-drilled the bracket in that position two of the holes were uncomfortably close to the edge, and one interfered with an existing hole. I therefore welded up all four holes, and welded two ears onto the bracket. I've got some pictures if you want. I also chnged the rear drums to Amazon spec drums, which are not the bendix self servoing type, to reduce rear brake lockup. At present it runs standard rear linings, EBC greenstuff front pads and no rear limiting valve. I think it could do with a limiting valve but it is within the bounds of acceptability. I'm going to fit a servo soon, and will do the limiting valve at the same time.

I agree the drums feel nicer, but the need accurate adjustment tostop them pulling left or right. And despite my best efforts the drums suffered badly from fade in extremis

Regards

Kermit,

In early Feb, you posted a wonderful writeup of your 544 head problems. Did you ever post any more of the story, or have I missed it?

JohnH (68 122S, a couple of 144s, 81 244)

I finally got it all assembled. Haven't put it in the car yet. Had to build a room addition and re-tile the bathroom. Women just don't understand.

When moving the engine from the patio to the garage on it's stand, it fell over and smashed my leg up, not to mention what it did to my back when I tried to catch it! The home projects are about complete, and my bride has promised me she will be helping me put the 544 back together. Yeah, right.

Ouch!!! I hope you're all mended now - and you didn't hurt that nice fresh engine.

Only the very early 1800 brakes are different, they have a brake line externally linking the two halves of the caliper, and the pads different and are very scarce. '64 should be past this point, so go for it.

Regards

Somewhere along the line, the 1800's changed from a 5 on 4 1/2 inch bolt pattern to 5 on 108 mm pattern. This means the wheels won't fit from one end of the car to the other after the conversion.

The 1800's also have a different offset in the caliper mounts, making it impossible to use the 1800 caliper.

And while you are there, put the discs on the rear. Piece of cake, irregardless of what you might have heard elsewhere.

Leonard

Hi Leonard

the different stud pattern is only on the very late 1800E and ES which have dual circuit brakes, the calipers for those are completely different.

I thought the different offset was only for those very early 1800 brakes, and the front brakes from '64 to '68 were identical between P1800 and Amazon. I could be wrong of course.

I'd be interested oin the rear brake conversion, done the front, done the M41 gearbox and B18 engine.

Regards

Peter,

There is a magazine called Grassroots Motorsports and one of the writers is a contributer to this board and is doing some work on a 67 or 68 122. He used the rear axle from a 70-73 1800 and then had the rear rotors redrilled to avoid the issue of 2 different bolt patterns. Anyway, having a later Amazon simplified the mating of the axle and body. His article is here. There is nothing about the rear yet, but we've corresponded some via email and it will be written up soon.

I've looked at the website. I'm currently doing the same to a 1970 dual circuit 2 door Amazon. The big advantage is that they were factory fitted with a proper servo boosted dual circuit system similar to the 1800ES. I've not looked at the fronts yet but it will definitely have the same stud pattern, no way am I carrying 2 spares. I think though I'm going to alter the front brakes/hubs and use early 164 wheels. Visually the same as Amazon. Now for the practice..

I've nearly finished the welding. The programmable ignition box is ordered. Be good when it is done. When it finally is done I'll post here.

Regards

Pete,

I have the mounting brackets from a 68 1800 and a 68 122. They are very different. I do not have the calipers from the 1800. Do the rears exactly like the front. You have to be more careful to get the rear bracket centered "exactly" so that the axle seal will work properly. I talked to Cameron at IPD about this conversion and he was "surprised", hadn't thought to do it that way. I will see if I can send you a picture directly.

Leonard

57 444, b20F shaved, header, Weber downdraft, ISKY cam, m41, IPD swaybars front and rear, 4 wheel disc brakes, 4.11 rear gears, 205/50/15's on 15 X 7 American Racing vintage slotted mags. 100mph+, 31 mpg average. And a plate that reads "VIAGRA"

Leonard.

your '57 444 sounds great! What does it look like?

I've done some stuff to a 544 here's some links:

http://www.georger.com/car_dreams.htm and http://www.georger.com/virgil.htm

Please send me a link to see your car. I've got a B20 (.030), O/D (short stick from 1800 in the proper tunnel), Fibreglass Front fenders, 4 wheel disks (1800ES), Turbo Wheels (108mm Bolt pattern), 4-bar link rear suspension, 3.90 ratio axle, Flat trunk floor, 12 gallon tank, fold down rear seats, Header, Electric fuel pump, electronic ignition and I took off the Weber down draft to put on some happily tuned SU's.

send me a link!

I'm looking at an older 544 with drums all around. Were later 544's produced with front discs? Seems I saw something on line that they were....

Thanks

Norris

They never had discs as stock. The factory rally team 544's had them toward the end, before the factory MADE them run the heavier 122's.

All the 544's came with drums all around. Those with discs have been converted.

Leonard

All 544's came with 4 drums from the factory. However, enterprising people have found it is quite easy to put the front discs from a 122/1800 on the front of a 544. And I think someone has even figured out how to put disc brakes on the rear (without swapping out the whole axle). My own $0.02 is that the drums work just fine - but even though my 544 is much faster than stock (2.2 liter B20e) I don't really drive it terribly hard. I wouldn't mind having and may convert in the future to a dual circuit master cylinder though. Single circuit brakes just make me nervous.

John Mc

95 Jetta GLX, 71 1800e, 63 544

My 544 has front brakes from a '66 1800S. They are identical to '66 122 front brakes, brackets amd all.

Thanks, Jim - I was looking for first-hand experience!

Received your pictures, that's one nice looking 444. Does your method have provision for a handbrake? I need one here to pass annual safety inspection.

Wonder if your '68 bracket was off a dual circuit car, though supposedly they didn't come out until '69. Worth knowing though when going parts foraging.

Regards

Pete,

There is always a catch. The park brake is now a "line lock". Press the brake pedal, pull the knob, and the lock holds the line pressure. Kick the brake again and it lets the pressure off. If you do this on the front, you can get some nasty burnouts at the stop light. Makes the camero boys eyes get really BIG ( can boil the tires through 3rd) You can find the line locks at Summit, and on ebay. I bought one for $12 bucks. The remote one with the electric solendoid makes it a lot easier to install. Put the button on the shift lever for easy use. Can't tell you if it will pass inspection, my guess is that it won't, simply because it has become a "park brake" and not an "emergency brake". Thanks for the compliment on the 444. It is a project that will never be finished, but it isn't the destination, it is the journey........

Leonard

Pete,

There is always a catch. The park brake is now a "line lock". Press the brake pedal, pull the knob, and the lock holds the line pressure. Kick the brake again and it lets the pressure off. If you do this on the front, you can get some nasty burnouts at the stop light. Makes the camero boys eyes get really BIG ( can boil the tires through 3rd) You can find the line locks at Summit, and on ebay. I bought one for $12 bucks. The remote one with the electric solendoid makes it a lot easier to install. Put the button on the shift lever for easy use. Can't tell you if it will pass inspection, my guess is that it won't, simply because it has become a "park brake" and not an "emergency brake". Thanks for the compliment on the 444. It is a project that will never be finished, but it isn't the destination, it is the journey........

Leonard

neat effect..is everyone geting that line through effect?

anyone understand html enough to know why?

Anyway, yes that's a really nice car...

I do belive you are mistaken when you say the 68 122 and 1800 brakes are diffrent. What I have found is that 122 and 1800 brakes are absolutely identical. where the change is, is with 1800e brakes- the "hub" part of the rotor assembly is much longer, and should in theory change the track. Those rotor assemblies take a unique bolt circle and caliper/caliper bracket ( and small pad)

That very well could be. I didn't physically pull the mounts from the 1800, but was told that was what they were. It could indeed have been a later model. I did pull the brackets from the 122. Your explanation does make some sense since there is about a 5/8 or so offeset in the two brackets. the mounting holes were the same however ( at least I am almost positive they were). At any rate, there is a difference, enough so to cause some grief if you have the wrong parts.

Leonard