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Hi,
My sticking front brakes turned out to be a couple of very stick, or jammed pistons. When I dismantled each caliper, there was rust and pitting on 3 of the small ones, and one of the big ones. So a rebuild.
Does anyone know whether the 140 4 pot caliper is a bolt on? The Scandcar site gives the same number for the B20 Amazon, and the 140, so unless the mounting is different, it presumably would bolt on.
Any advantages/disadvantage of the 140 caliper over the 3 pot caliper (assuming it is a bolt on)?
JohnH
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Hi John;
The late 122S used the 140 brake system up front. Here in Canada that would be the 69 and a few 70 models. The steering knuckle is different, in that the mounting holes for the four piston caliper are closer together. I have done this conversion before. The 140 booster with its long extension from the firewall was also used, and the master cylinder, and a cable clutch. The four piston caliper is substantially lighter, and with the good type of booster (not the Girling remote style) the brakes on the late 122's were outstanding. I have seen a late production 1970 122S with the 1800 rear disk brake axle from the factory. Should have bought that one.....
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That late model sounds interesting. I hadn't heard of any Amazons with factory 4wheel disks.
Will the steering knuckle and ball joints from a 140 fit into the Amazon wishbones, or would that just be too easy? I know the wheel bolt patten is different, but that would probably be the least of the worries.
I'm also RHD in Australia, so the booster would probably foul on the carbs, especially when I get the money to modify the motor and need webers.
An interesting and thought provoking discussion....
John
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You'll need the knuckles from an 1800S with the four piston calipers. They are a direct fit into the upper and lower arms of the 1800 (same suspension actually) The 140 suspension is quite different (ball joints in particular).
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If your front caliper has only 3 pistons it is probably single path
(one brake line coming to it)
As far as I know the 140s ALL had dual path brakes so their calipers
are not what you need.
--
George Downs, The "original" Walrus3, Bartlesville, Oklahoma
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posted by
someone claiming to be Ron Kwas
on
Sun Jul 7 02:39 CST 2002 [ RELATED]
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John;
The fact that the caliper numbers for a B20 Amazon and a 140 are the same certainly suggests swapability...late 122s had dual hydraulic systems, but as far as I know, not the full dual diagonal systems of the 140, so maybe they used the 4pot calipers on the fronts with the two systems of the calipers plumbed together and fed by the single sytem coming to the corner (which you could certainly mimic)...I'd love to hear if anyone has actual experience with this interesting possiblity.
If you wind up rebuilding the 3pot calipers, I'd consider SS pistons...the prices for them are about on par with OE chrome plated pistons.
Cheers
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posted by
someone claiming to be Jim Hampton
on
Mon Jul 8 18:24 CST 2002 [ RELATED]
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Where do you get ss pistons? Can you get them in a kit with the other components of a re-build kit?
JiM Hampton
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posted by
someone claiming to be Ron Kwas
on
Thu Jul 11 04:24 CST 2002 [ RELATED]
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Jim;
Pistons have to be procured seperate from the rebuild kits (which just consist of all the rubber items), last time I did this.
SS pistons are availble from: John Farrel Auto Parts at: http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/tread/1046/
Please Note: I have ZERO first hand experience with this outfit, this link was posted here a while back (don't recall by whom), and I stickly pass it along...so if you deal with them, please report your results here for everyones benefit (including PNs)... thanks!
There are a few more notes on caliper rebuilding at: http://www.intelab.com/swem/service%20notes.htm#Braking%20System
Cheers
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posted by
someone claiming to be chris ulrich
on
Sun Jul 7 09:20 CST 2002 [ RELATED]
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My 67 122 is a late 67. It has the break-away
steering column shaft with the rubber couplers and
a dual pot master cylinder. It doesn't have dual
circuit brakes, though. Instead, one pot goes to
the rear cylinders and the other to the front. It
is a design that is only slightly safer than a
single circuit design, in my opinion, since a brake
failure will cause the car to brake in a way that
is very different from the normal behavior.
The 68s that I've seen seem to be of this design,
though some of them seem to have the later 2 circuit
front brake systems. It must have been a rolling
change of some sort. Either that or the cars that
I've seen were retro-fitted to the 67 design for
some reason. (the 68s that I've seen were all in
junk yards and I never sat down to do a methodical
study of 122 brakes.)
chris
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The '69 and '70 Amazons have a proper dual circuit brake system, completely different from the '68 North American confection. they used 1800ES/140 style twin line calipers.
Regards
Pete
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Pete,
By 'proper' do you mean 2 independent circuits, each one feeding both fronts, and one rear? Is the actual braking any better with the 4-pots? Safety notwithsanding, is it worth doing the conversion?
I have noticed that my subframe has 2 mounting holes for the brake hoses on each side, like on the 140s, so I've either got a euro 69/70 subframe, or by 1968 they had started planning for the conversion.
And then there is the master cylinder. What does the euro 69 and 70 use, and is it compatible with the holes in my 1968 firewall?
Tks
John
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All the '68 on cars I've seen have had the dual circuit front crossmember with the twin hole tag for the hoses though not the brakes themselves. Those very late cars are substantially different. The dual circuit brakes use a master cylinder with an ATE servo, as fitted to an 1800ES. In order to accomodate this they had cable clutches rather than the hydraulic fitted to earlier cars.
Incidentally they also had a steering column lock with a slighhtly different dashboard.
Unlike the '68 North American dual circuit cars, which used a version of the wagner PV style brakes, they had a self adjusting version of the Girling. Its not impossible to convert an earlier car, you need to swap the pedal box for the cable clutch, but you're unlikely to find all the parts in the States, and would probably need to approach a Dutch or Swedish breaker.
I don't reckon the braking is really that much better, the big advantage of this setup is that it makes it possible to hook up a late 1800E/ES axle as Volvo intended with dual circuit brakes/rear disks.
Incidentally. Mikael Sallstrom. www.cvi-automotive.se does the Amazon caliper pistons at a very competitive price.
Regards
Pete
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Pete,
The rear disk brake set up is very appealing to avoid those pesky tapered drums. I tried removing mine at the weekend, using the wheel nuts to pull a wheel with a 2" x 1" thick steel section bolted across to press on the big nut. No success, and I was scared I'd distort the drum/strip the studs if I tried to tighten it any more. I'll get a decent puller for this weekend, but the disk brake rear end is very appealing! The only problem is they are very scarce here in Australia, because there were never many sold.
Meantime I'll rebuild the calipers (probably using the CVI kits) and dream about rear disks and split circuit brakes.
Regards
John
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you only need a meduim sized drum puller if you use a impact/air wrench to tighten the main bolt. Tightn it up real good and then give the drum a sharp and heavy whack with a big hammer around the center of the hub works pretty good on the old tapered drums.
--
Disclaimer: be careful, work safely!!! If you have any doubts as to the safety of the work you are doing, consult a proffessional before you hurt yourself or others!!! I'm not a licensed mechanic, I have just been fixing stuff my whole life, patrick of
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Sorry, Didn't realise you weren't in the States. For the RHD setup Volvo still used a a cable clutch, the master/servo assembly was on the passenger side using a bar across the car. I think those cars were sold in your market, I've seen a reprint of a road test of one in the Brooklands re-print book.
Incidentally Mikael also had some genuine drum pullers last time I was in Delsbo!
Regards
Pete
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Hmm... sounding like a fun project...for the future. I've got a couple of parts 140s with the cross-shaft braking system. I'll have a look how it works and see if it can be adapted.
And I'd love to get one of those drum pullers, but I suspect the freight would be prohibitive to Australia. I'm borrowing a big slide hammer at the weekend from the MB tech who services my wife's MB. I'm not optimistic, but I'm having a devil of a job finding a decent puller here.
John
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I once spent an afternoon with a huge slide hammer trying to pull the drums, no luck what so ever. The drum puller I have now is a cheapo from an import store $30.00 Can, but I just pulled the drums on my wagon and they had not been pulled in a long time by the looks of things on the inside.
I will now sing the praises of air tools. Ever since I started using an impact wrench all the jobs on my old 120 are so much faster. last week I put new E-brake cables on my wagon, total time: 45 min. Nothing broke, everything came off fast, even rusty nuts on bolts, and even silly little things like the lug nut take secounds now. It took me years to take the plunge, and even then it was more 'cause I needed an air comp for work so the only real expense was the wrench (BTW buy a good one, the cheap ones are very weak). Oh yeah, I got a good high lift floor jack too (23 inch lift). I know this may sound like gloating but it's not, I just wish I'ld bought them earlier, the time and $ the air tools have saved me more than pays for them. yada yada yada...
--
Disclaimer: be careful, work safely!!! If you have any doubts as to the safety of the work you are doing, consult a proffessional before you hurt yourself or others!!! I'm not a licensed mechanic, I have just been fixing stuff my whole life, patrick of
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posted by
someone claiming to be I claim to be Tim Clarkson, Australia
on
Tue Jul 9 00:03 CST 2002 [ RELATED]
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Sykes Pickavant (UK) make a puller which is recommended by the UK magazine Practical Classics. The part number is 085300 and cost about New Zealand$100 some years ago say US$40-50. Don't know where you would source these in the US though.
Tim Clarkson
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Hi,
I've just ordered are repro of the Volvo tool from Mikael at CVI in Sweden - about AUD60 plus freight. I also ordered new rear wheel cylinders and caliper rebuild kits. Much cheaper than locally here in Australia. I've never dealt with him before, but I've heard good things about his service. I just hope the customs boys let it all through without catching the GST.
JohnH
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