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I have a 1984 240GL. If it doesn't have about 15 minutes to cool off in between turning it off and trying to crank it up again, it doesn't crank at all. My mechanic has already decided it is electrical and has replaced several things. A coil has been replaced, my starter, and my fuel pump. Has anyone else had this problem? Any ideas?
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Okay, guys, thanks! As of right now, the car is running. They rewired the whole thing. I've cranked it three times so far. It hasn't stalled out at all yet. I'm hoping.
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(I didn't have time to read all the other posts....)
Did anyone mention the possiblility of a broken fuse arching to an ajacent fuse holder?
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Lets get this right, your "mechanic" changed the coil and fuel pump to solve a non-cranking situation?
Whatever parts you need to cure it, the first thing on the list of parts that you need is a new mechanic who knows what he is doing!
If the starter has been replaced and is not a faulty unit all the relevent connections need checking, which should have been done before replacing anything. It`s not exactly rocket science.
Colin.
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I LIKE my mechanic. He's checked everything. It only doesn't crank when it's hot.
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Then I suggest he should have checked it when it WAS hot then he might have found the problem!
Colin.
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He did. He's driven it. He's let it idle. He can't find anything wrong with it.
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When you say "crank," do you mean that it doesn't turn over by the starter motor or do you mean that it doesn't start running?
The coil and the fuel pump have absolutely NO influence on the ability of the starter motor to crank over the engine. However, they do affect whether or not the engine actually starts running (and many other things also affect this).
Which tranny does it have -- manual or automatic?
--
Don Foster (near Cape Cod, MA)
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It clicks. It doesn't turn over or anything. It is a manual.
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It's a manual tranny. OK, that means it's not a defective neutral safety switch because it's used only on automatics.
It clicks.
The clicking is probably the solenoid pulling in.
This sounds very much like an intermittent starter, although I thought you said the starter had been replaced. Are you sure?
If the battery is charged and the voltage remains up, then it's probably not the battery. But it could be a bad ground connection or bad power connection at the solenoid. It could also be a bad (or loose) connection of the heavy conductor 'tween starter motor and solenoid, which is secured at the solenoid with a heavy screw.
I'd wager my first cold on on a bad solenoid.
I'd wager my second cold one on a bad starter motor.
I'd wager my third cold one on a bad connection 'tween starter 'n solenoid.
I'd wager my fourth cold one on a bad power connection at the solenoid (red wire).
I'd wager my fifth cold one on a bad ground, perhaps a loose starter bolt (seen it happen...).
I'll just drink the sixth cold one because by now you don't want me near your car.
--
Don Foster (near Cape Cod, MA)
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Exactly what is clicking? Does the starter click (coming from under the hood), or is it just some relays in the dash that are clicking?
An intermittent starter solenoid (which wouldn't be too far-fetched on a car of this age) could be a problem. The contacts can corrode or wear out which results in a click but no juice to the motor. In this case you would hear a click from the starter but it won't turn the engine. But you say your "mechanic" has already changed the starter.
With a manual trans there are no safety switches. The key switch is probably not a problem if you hear clicking as a result of turning to position III. Maybe there is a problem with the wiring between the key switch and the starter. Has your engine/ignition wire harness been replaced? The starter wire going thru the grey box at the firewall is one of those that is especially susceptible to insulation rot. There may also be corrosion in the grey box causing intermittent contact.
Knowing exactly where the clicking is coming from would be very useful information.
--
Matt L. -- Cary, NC -- '89 740 sedan -- '91 740 wagon
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Okay, let's imagine for a moment that there's this 17 year old kid who just got this volvo with a new engine in it from her mom's friend, and let's imagine that everyone thought it was completely fixed and useable. Now, let's say this kid is driving around one day and stops the car but not for very long so the car is still hot when she tries to crank it again. Now, let's imagine that when this kid does try to crank it again it clicks from God knows where and the lights on the dash come on and the radio works, but the car doesn't crank (as in engine doesn't turn over, car sits there). Now, let's imagine that because this kid has only ever driven a 67 mustang which is American and doesn't have nearly as many parts as an 84 volvo, she has no clue what's going on. So, she takes it to what she knows to be a reliable mechanic, not a "mechanic", an actual mechanic. Now, let's say this mechanic has tried fixing things on it three times free of charge, and he's running out of ideas. So the person that gave the kid the car tells her to come to this website because people are helpful. So the kid does, but only one person is actually helpful, the rest act like she's a complete idiot that has been trying to work on her own car and doesn't know what she's doing so they use flowery car lingo that goes over her head because she's a poet not a mechanic. None of it helps. End of story. Do you understand my delima now?
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This is good. I'll bring my guitar, we can find a banjo, someone can beat on a washtub, perhaps a fiddle, and we'll turn your sad story into an award-winning country-western song about a failed starter, lost love, a six-pak. It'll sell a million.
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Don Foster (near Cape Cod, MA)
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You can bring whatever you want if you come and fix my car. In fact, I'll pay for the six pack. I'll pay for lots of six packs if you fix my car!
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Though I'd love a cold one, the commute would kill me.
But back to your car -- your troubleshooting approach should involve making voltage measurements at 'n around the starter motor when it starts normally and again when it "clicks." Comparing the measurements will help pinpoint the exact location of the problem.
One poster correctly expressed a frustration we all experience trying to help diagnose problems using this message board. We cannot accurately convey subtle ideas. For example, is your "clicking" the solenoid pulling in or is your "clicking" merely a relay somewhere in your car? There's no substitute for actually seeing, hearing, touching it for ourselves. This means we need additional data, which leads to lotsa dumb-sounding questions.
And the dumb-sounding questions lead to your frustrations, and you end up composing a sorry-assed country-western song. But look at the bright side. If your sorry-assed song sells a million, you can buy a new Volvo.
Sooooo...... Do you have a DVM to make some voltage measurements??
--
Don Foster (near Cape Cod, MA)
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2 things:
1. everyone here wants to help (really), you just need to take it upon yourself to describe the problem a little better. we aren't psychic. It's not rocket-science to tell if "clicking" is coming from under the hood or not. Have a friend who is looking under the hood help you determine this if you can't tell from sitting inside the car while turning the key.
2. your "mechanic" has no clue whatsoever, if he replaced the fuel pump and coil trying to get the starter motor to run. I'd strongly suggest finding another mechanic.
Best of luck
--
Matt L. -- Cary, NC -- '89 740 sedan -- '91 740 wagon
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First of all, without taking it to a dealer, I don't know very many people that work on foreign cars around here. I like this one because he's honest which is a good thing when he totally has the upper hand because like I said, this car isn't an old mustang. As far as describing the problem, I'm doing the best I can. I'm sure it would be great if I knew the name of everything under the hood and knew exactly what each problem sounded like, but then I wouldn't be here. I'm assuming the clicking is coming from under the hood considering the starter has been replaced and all the stuff inside the car works. I'm well aware that the starter could have been a used part or something and may be faulty, but in trying to use my own logic since that's all i have in this case, I would think that if it was the starter itself, NOTHING would get any power. Like I said, the radio and lights and whatnot are getting power. Read what B.C. said in his post, and see if it sounds right to you. I think it's worth getting someone to look at, but again, I don't know. I'm basically at the mercy of anyone who could possibly know anything whatsoever. I'm trying to think of more stuff I can tell you. The main thing I can think of is that it runs. It's just if it doesn't cool off for about 10 or 15 minutes in between it running for a while and trying to crank it, it does the not starting thing. It's like the weirdest thing I've ever seen. I have a feeling it's one of those things that it would have to happen to your car for you to completely see what's going on. Just read the post I was talking about, and tell me what you think if you feel like it.
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First, I don't know how much any poster knows about cars, Volvo or in general, so I probably lay out a lot more words than are needed.
Second, I am as cheap as the next person, so I look for a fix based on how much it might cost and what's likely to have cratered. Remember that when the engine is heated up, the rings and bearings are a little tighter, so the starter would have to work harder to turn the engine.
When the starter solenoid pulls in, if the starter turns the sound is usually not noticeable. If, however, the starter does NOT turn, the solenoid is a good solid "Clack", much stronger than the click of a relay. The noise emanates from the lower LH side of the engine. Try it with the hood up.
In your situation, I have recent experience. If you have never had the alternator brushes replaced, they are probably worn too short. After all, they are supposed to last ONLY 100,000 miles! Mine were bad at 125K. So, that makes them a likely suspect.
Checking them is easy. It helps if the oil filter is off, as during an oil change. There is a little housing on the back of the alternator that's held on with two machine screws, philips head or torx. No wires on the housing.
Nearby on the alternator is a fat red wire connected on a big bolt with a nut. The nut is supposed to be covered with a plastic "hat" but that thing may be long gone.
That fat red wire is always hot, direct to the battery. If you are not certain that a screwdriver won't accidentally touch it, disconnect the negative cable from the battery. Record your stereo pre-sets because they may be lost while the power is off. Actually disconnecting either battery cable will do the job, BUT, if you have a wrench on the positive terminal and it somehow touches the car body: BAAAZZZAPPP, hugh spark, like a welder.
All this is assuming that the work can and will be done by you. It's a little greasy job, do poets mind greasy hands?
If you haven't gotten a shop manual, pick up a Haynes at AutoZone or some such place. Bricksters like the Bentley book, but it's a lot higher price, and will take longer to get. You should eventually have both.
The brush/regulator is not a super-cheap fix, but it is likely and easy.
Go for it.
Good Luck,
Bob
:>)
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I definitely will NOT be doing it myself until I'm sure I know what I'm doing. I'm not in the least afraid of dirtiness. I'm just afraid of messing the car up worse which will end up costing me more than if I just let someone else do it. I'm beginning to be really sorry I made the poet comment. Anyway, my mechanic is having a bunch of tests and stuff done at the hospital right now. I'm not sure what's wrong with him either, but as soon as he gets back, I'm going to let him look at the stuff you guys have said because he's more than open to help as well. I'm going to let the guy that gave me the car go ahead and look at the posts because he's a big foreign car person, so he might know. As I mentioned in my post to...well whoever it was (sorry I'm getting a lot at once)...it actually went dead while I was driving it tonight and had to be towed. No more poet though. I was just proving a point. Ashley works.
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The people here are honestly trying to help you and if you read through the posts -- particularly those by B.C. and Foster you will compile a list of just about everything that can cause this problem. First thing to check (because it's pretty easy) is the charge state of the battery. There's also another good reason to check this. A poorly charged battery can cause the EXACT symptoms you are describing (clicking solenoid but no crank. If you'd like an explanation of what that means, ask. It's not too hard to understand or explain and many here can do it. It's only a mystery to you bec use you have never been exposed to it before which is not a fault with either you or the people trying to help you here).
Your mechanic has probably already done this (checked the battery and charging sytem) but maybe not. If he has replaced items necessary for the car to run, but not necessary to get the engine to turn over with the starter, then there is a real good chance that he misunderstands your description of the problem. It can be hard because people who are familiar with cars and working on them develop a sort of jargon to describe things (you see it here) and can become frustrated when talking to someone who isn't familiar with the shorthand lingo. Same thing happens to you when you try to explain poetry to your mechanic, I'll bet.
If it's not the battery or charging system, like Fostor says, the very likely culprit is the starter solenoid. Usually, this gets changed out with the starter, but it's not necessarily absolutely necessary to do this. Your mechanic could have put the solenoid that he thought was good onto the replacement starter. Flakey starter solenoids can also cause the EXACT symptom you are describing. I know this to be true from personal experience with Bosch starters.
Then, count down Foster's cold ones because they are the other things that can cause the EXACT symptoms you are seeing. Basically what Don has done is list the items which can cause a good battery to not be able to supply good and proper voltage (or supply adequate current depending on your perspective) to the starter motor. Any of these things can be intermittant like you are seeing. Also, a good mechanic knows that these things can cause the problem but even the best mechanic can overlook "the problem" from time to time.
Fortunately, like everyone here says, this is not rocket science and should not be outrageously expensive to fix. You've got a starter with solenoid, a battery and charging system, an ignition switching mechanism, and some big wires connecting it all together. A limited number of causes all easily examinable -- no black boxes or computer chips.
Finally, you seem to feel that the folks here have been a touch rude. I've only been reading this board for a short time because I have only had my Volvo fetish for a short time, but I must say that I have never encountered such a resource -- such a wealth of information freely and accurately dispensed by such a great bunch of people. Just be a little patient and remember that when someone on the internet seems to be getting "short" with you chances are about 1000 to 1 that it is not intentional. Don't misinterpret blunt but accurate advice with rudeness -- they're not the same thing. (sorry if that seems rude).
Good luck with your problem. Perhaps you can have a talk with your mechanic about the suggestions here and he can explain why they are or are not applicable to you.
Harold
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Yeah, Foster and B.C. have definitely become two of my favorite people right now. I'm going to print their posts out and take them to my mechanic as soon as he gets back from being sick. It isn't the battery. I'm pretty sure because jumping it off does absolutely nothing. It actually went dead while I was driving it tonight though. I don't know if that is something completely different. I hope not. I honestly don't know EVERYTHING that has been replaced. I've only had the car for a couple of months. I think I'm just going to take Foster's cold ones and forget the car. The thing with the advice is that I understand what you guys are saying. I just don't know exactly what every little part does...as in I know they exist. I've heard of them before, but they'd have to be pointed out to me. I actually wish someone would do that. I really wish i could just have parts ordered and pop em in. The thing you also have to realize is my frustration with the whole situation. I've had the car for two months thereabouts, and it has been doing this the entire time. The only good thing is that so far, I have a pretty nice car for 800 dollars. But I do apreciate the majority of you. The thing is that aside from pretty exterior, cars didn't really even interest me until I got my mustang, and I could probably fix stuff on it or was getting there when I sold it. Like I said before though, this isn't a mustang. This car is kind of overwhelming.
(I don't try to explain poetry to my mechanic. I was just showing you how much of an extreme oposite I am from the typical car buff.)
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Oh,oh. If I understand what's going on you've got two different problems. The one we have been talking about is the failure of the starting system to crank the car when it's hot. Now, the car has died while you're driving it. The only thing discussed so far that would cause both these problems (afaik) is a pretty gross failure of the voltage system -- dead battery and poor charging system as very low voltage will stall a running car. Have your mechanic check what B.C. suggested when he gets back.
If you go through the recent message on the board you will find discussions of a bunch of things that will stop a running car or prevent a stopped one from starting even when it cranks. Likely suspects seem to be the 25 amp fuse under the hood near the driver's side fender as well as nastier things like the ECU ("black" box computer that controls the fuel injection). It can also be wiring harness related as this deteriorates on cars of your year-model. I have an 85 wagon with a crappy harness and I'm just hoping that it doesn't go on vacation before I have a chance to fix it -- also hoping I don't mess it up when I get to it.
Again, good luck. $800 for a car as serviceable and long lived as your Volvo can be is a bargain. Just know that any old car (even Mustangs) can develop knotty little problems that have to be sorted out, but they CAN be sorted out.
Understand the poet thing, by the way. Even though I have grease under my nails, I know what a metaphor is.
Harold
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So, when it's hot it won't even turn over, right? However the starter makes a loud "click", right?
In my usually humble opinion, your battery has a marginal charge on it. Next time the problem comes up, do a jump start while the engine is still hot.
Also, pull the voltage regulator/brush holder off the alternator and check the brush length. If they are under 3mm, put in a new set. The unit is about $70 and the brushes by themselves are $4.00 but you have to remove the old ones and solder in the new ones.
This is the same problem I encountered on my 1988 244GL. New brush/regulator made a lot of defferences.
Good Luck,
Bob
:>)
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Thank you like a million. I'll get that checked out.
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