Ok here is my big question, I want to swap in a bigger more powerful volvo engine. But I also need it to be reliable, so is the b23T reliable? I hear mixed things about it. And how hard is it to swap in? It looks like the manifold might be a real pain in the arse! I hear the motor mounts are no fun as well. And the wiring. Is this all the problem or is there more? I am going to be rallying this volvo in Gp 2 so it needs to be a good engine. Ok anyone who knows what there talkin about please help me out here. And I think its called the (b23) i could be wrong? I dunno its either that or a B21? The engine with turbo is what I want. Also if anyone knows how to fix a really screwed up drivers side door & rear 1/4 panel. Can email me to give me some pointers. I know u want to work the outer part of the dent in but it looks like the metal has stretched badly so I don't know if its fixable? sure doesn't look pretty! I think I can take a pic tomorrow of my progress so far. I will try pulling it out with a dent puller, and putting on this fiberglass bondo stuff. See if that works. This is the first time I have ever fixed an auto dent. And its a big big dent so i figure I will screw up the first time. I have taken it to bare metal in the damaged area. Ok well sorry for the long post.
Matt
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Matt

Ok heres my 2 cents,get the flame thrower ready! While it's true you can get the same horse power out of a B20 as a turboed B21,23,230 have you driven one at 120? They're pretty loud! Every hopped up B20 I've ever seen has sounded like a harley at a stop light and *gasp* were tempermental(the ones that truly scooted that is).I kinda like the quiet sleeper aspect of the turbo engine idea.With the early (240 and 700 series) turbos I can see where you'd complain about the lag.Bolting on a TD04 (like the 940's use) was another story.What an improvement! The lag virtually went away and you can come almost to a complete stop in second gear,accelerate and go (although I don't reccomend lugging your engine like that) Of all the souped B20's I've ridden in nothing has accelerated like my 145.It cruises without sounding wound out at 100 MPH,isn't tempermental,starts well and runs smoothly.I don't syncronize carbs etc.As far as being "easy".Like someone else stated,one persons "easy" is another persons nightmare.There are definately issues to overcome (alternator comes to mind!).There were also several unforseen hurdles just changing from the first engine (B21FT) to the B230FT.It's not a swap I'd want to do in my driveway (I did most of it there).You'll want to get it on a lift to deal more easily with driveline angles etc.When I started my swap in march I wondered if it would ever really be driving.I got it cruising in july and then finally with the B230 in November.Another consideration is what you have to start with.Where as you could build a killer B20 for a couple grand ,I have less than $1000 (in cash,time is another element) in my project right now because I had so much junk sitting around and I did it all myself! 240 turbo parts cars are around.My project started with setting the engine in and dealing with issues one at a time.I can still appreciate a really built B20 and had several in my pushrod cars before I did the swap.With all the B20 cars I've driven none have performed so well.The acceleration is incredible and i've stuck my foot in a lot of V8's before falling in love with volvos! I'm not saying it's V8 fast but certainly it is impressive.Another factor is the rest of your drive train.You arn't done just cause you got the engine in and running! If you have the patience,some skill and the desire you can make it happen.While I know anyone can pay to have an engine built or build a killer engine themselves,none of my souped B20's every got the attention my current car gets.With the souped B20's everybody always wanted to race and though I was a dork (still debatable) for the harley sounds my car was emmiting.Now they still think I'm a dork (for investing that much work into a 30 year old volvo) but they have a harder time catching me to tell me so!I still don't have images compressed small enough to host here of the engine.It comes down to different strokes.I did mine partially to satisfy my curiosity.I would never knock the B20 engines,they are great (except all that noise at high speed!)
Erik

Here is another possibility for me I guess. If I can't get this F\/<| Matt
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Matt

Here is another possibility for me I guess. If I can't get this F\/<|in dent out. Pitch this 142 and buy or get a 240 somehow! Are all the 240's the same as far as body panels? Cause I can get a very very cheap 242 thats a 1975 or 76m, its pretty bad interior, its been broken into as well. I don't know what happened to my last post! I typed a lot more than that.
matt
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Matt

Volvobub,

How did you deal with the engine angle issue? did you set the engine upright like the b20 or did you use the natural angle of it? I heard somewhere of someone setting the b21/23/230 upright with a b20 oil pump and pan.

The engine is stood almost completely upright. You do use a B20 oil pump and pan.The B20 oil pump and pan bolts right onto the B21,23 engine.There is modification required on the B230 for the oil pump to clear the crankshaft.If anyone is willing to compress pictures for me (I can't seem to).I will put engine pictures on the gallery.I have several shot from above and below.
Erik

Oh yeah one more thing.I'd be lying if I told you this was the reason I did my swap,but....My B230 runs cleaner than B20 cars stock or souped up.I'd like to see emission numbers on a 200 Horsepower B20!

The G2 category in scca rally allows only normally asperated engines with a max adjusted displacement of 2400cc's. If you did the swap you would be in the G5 class with some pretty high hp engines. If you really plan to go rallying you should check out the vehicle group specs.

I'm gonna put in words for the B21FT

I drive a 1979 242GT, stock with a B21F. Over the summer, At the IPD meet actually, I bought, two B21FTi's, the whole intercooler set up, entire K-Jet fuel injection, centerforce dual friction clutch, M46 gearbox, (plus a spare) plus a Vx3 Cam all for 325 bucks!! The engine shows even compression across the board (I'm rebuilding the spare B21FT as we speak).

I then went and bought MegaSquirt Fuel injection system. At a whopping cost of 200USD including all sensors, wiring and the computer, I have fully programable Fuelinjection system. I then bought an MSD 6A ignition off of EBay for 80USD.

So right there, I have a pretty damn good deal. you can see the install at www.volvoeh.com/engineinstall.html

You guys keep spouting off these numbers "oh it only has 160HP" Yippee.... With a turn of a rod boost can be inscreased. Stock they run 7PSI. I run 20PSI on mine. Each PSI of boost, on a stock engine is approximatly 8HP. So increase boost to around 12-14 (very easy on a stock engine) you will be over 200HP, and if you do it right, you can be there for 1 grand at a max. No fancy valve,s over bores, custom internals (pistons rods etc)

The money you will spend, building your B20 to match the STOCK hp levels of a B21FT, you can actaully fit the B21FTi into your 140. Then you can turn the wastegate rod on the turbo and vary your boost and increase power! simple.

The B23FT was only available in 84 760's. It is not a great engine. There have been reports all over the T-Bricks comunity of Cylinders warping and flexing. So I suggest a B21FTi, or a 90+ B230FT.

If you want more torque out of a B21FTi, (it has low compression ratio of 7.5) you can install a set of B21A pistons, will bring compression up to 8.5. If thats still not high enough, then you can install B21F pistons, of 9.1. Don't anyone say he will detonate. There is a guy Dale who runs this set-up and runs 10PSI of boost. Its a torque monster.

My dad has already started fitment of a B21FTi into his 69 122S.

If you have anymore quesitons e-mail me directly at jordan@volvoeh.com

Jordan

Your page was quite interesting. I've been considering
using megasquirt on my 145 which currently doesn't have
any injection system on it at all.

You don't mention where you got the fuel injectors --
the k-jet injectors wouldn't work with MS. Did you use
an LH manifold and use the injectors from that? Would an
LH fuel rail work on a B20 head? I'd imagine that over
the years the spacing between the injectors probably
hasn't changed since the B21 and metric B20 use the same
crank and people have used B23 blocks with B21 heads
and so on.

Do you use the MS in alternating bank mode or just all
together mode?

Lastly, assuming you can get a B20 to 8:1 or 7.5:1
compression ratio, how hard do you think it would be to
turbo a B20? It looks like not a whole lot of custom
piping would be needed and MS is already set up to deal
with boosted situations and there are easily available
ignition systems that can retard the ignition in boost
situations. I think the hardest problem to deal with
would be keeping the exhaust valves from melting.

Does anyone know if it is possible to use some other
valve in a B20? Something like B21ft valves or maybe
a turbo saab valve?
chris

Here is a nice pic of a 142 w/ a modified B230FT that I've seen online a couple of times. It really shows how cramped that 140 engine bay can get with all those modifications.

Its also a 16V head on that thing, with custom intake and exhaust manifolds, external wastegoate etc etc... all adding to the cramptness.

Thats aquick car The owner posted at T-Bricks a while ago. The custom front end also made the compartment smaller... Its a tubed front end

Jordan

The conventional four cylinder Volvo turbo engines come in three basic flavors in the US market:

1) The B21FT, which was the standard turbo engine for the 240s ('81 to '85). This engine used the Bosch K-jet "mechanical" injection system. (And note that Volvo introduced the intercooler in late '84.)

2) The B23FT, which was used in only the turbo 740s ('83 and '84, I think). This engine used the early Bosch LH-jet electronic injection system.

3) The B230FT, and its variations, has been used in the 700 and 900 cars from '85 to whenever. This engine used the newer Bosch LH system.

All the 700/900 turbo engines used an intercooler.

Of these, the B23FT is often cited as the most desirable (and most rare). It is a very strong motor and holds up well to modifications. The newer B230FT is also considered very strong, but earlier versions of the B230 engine represent an attempt by Volvo to "cheapen" the engine, and are considered somewhat weaker, particularly if modified.

Answering your many subjective questions makes many assumptions about what you consider "easy" versus what others consider "easy." Personally, I think installing a B21FT would be easier than installing a B23FT or B230FT because the the B21 uses the K-jet whereas the B23/230 use the complex electronic LH-jet. On the other hand, you'll get far more power from the 23 or 230 because it's a bigger engine.

If you decide to install a turbo engine, consider including the intercooler -- but plan for extra confusion underhood caused by the extra plumbing.
--
Don Foster (near Cape Cod, MA)

The Volvo turbo motors are not big in HP numbers but make some sweet torque.Drive both and than compare.I did and the turbos are the way to go.The B23/230 Ft motors with their higher compression ratios make for very responsive cars.My friend has a highly modified B21F motor in his 240.My factory intercooled 240 smokes him every time.

Wow...that was a mouthful you just typed....

Well, for starters, I am of the shadetree school of mechanics, and therefore, I like things simple. The two things you mentioned are not simple. Both projects are pretty serious.

First, the engine swap idea. WEll, I personally like normally aspirated engines. I'd rather have a well built, properly tuned B20 or B21 any day over a turbo. The stock turbos are tuned to run well when spun up fast, but lack in the low end. So in my book, that leaves a normally aspirated B20 or B21/23. Since the car already has a B20...well heck, you're in business. Build it right, and go with it. If you really want to go fast, and you really want to do an engine conversion...stick a small block V8 in there. It'll be just as easy as a B21 type volvo engine conversion, and the power potential would be almost limitless.

As for teh bodywork you mention.... jeez. Teh rear quarter panel? Thats a BIG expance of flat sheet metal, and no matter what you do, its not going to be easy. Especially for a first timer. you sand that fiberglass stuff down, and it might look smooth, but...wait till you get paint on it.... then the wrinkles pop out like a wart on a witch's nose. I spent a solid month trying to smooth filler in the fender of my XK120. I got it good, but its a far cry from right....

All that said though... what is your final goal with this car? Do you want it to be a keeper? Or a test bed and an education? If you want to teach yourself some serious stuff about welding, electronics, bodywork, and a whole lot of other stuff... by all means go for it. Stick that turbo B21 in there, and patch up that quarter panel. You'll learn plenty, you'll have fun doing it, and you'll have a spiffy car when you are done.

But don't get too much money in it. It gets really easy to have more invested in a car than it will ever be worth. And its really easy to get too involved in a complex project and have it set aside and never finished. I am quite familiar with both scenarios from personal experience. As it is, I reckon I've got more into the 145 than it is worth... see "project 145 update" post from last Friday....

good luck, and keep us posted!

-Matt

Just got back from looking at a 122 V8 "conversion".Most of the firewall was missing and the "tunnel" built of wood (!) was hoakie at best.The B21 conversion would require zero cutting.While I agree you should decide to either pump a B20 or do a swap,I wouldn't say all swaps are equal.My conversion required no cutting of the body.

>I'd rather have a well built, properly tuned B20 or B21 any day over a turbo. >The stock turbos are tuned to run well when spun up fast, but lack in the low >end. So in my book, that leaves a normally aspirated B20 or B21/23.
Me typin now... Forgot to write about this part... Whats the difference from the b20 and b21 or b23? I only know about the B18 and the B20 I know nothing about a B21 or 23! So is the 21 a 2.1L and the 23 a 2.3L? I would rather go with a B23 if there is any stuff out there to build it up with!
Ok hope people respond.
Matt
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Matt

Amen. Build up the B20 instead of investing lots of time and money into a B2223 Turbo swap. Look at the HP figures on the Turbo engines - not incredibly impressive in stock form - so you would likely be modifying the engine as well as making it fit into the car. It's certainly been done a number of times, but it is not a simple procedure.

With some judicious spending you can get 200 HP out of a B20 block (big bore, head work, cam, intake and exhaust enhancements). With a really healthy wallet you could get one of John Parker's supercharger kits and build a low compression B20 and get probably 250+ HP - without the lazy low rpm feel of the Turbo.

The OHC engines really only have an advantage in the upper RPM ranges, and neither one is going to rev like a Hoonda S2K engine in any case.

As for your dent - at some point it really is better to just cut and rplace the sheetmetal. More work, but less bondo. That stuff never lasts long at all. Do it right the first time - its easier than doing it wrong twice.

Ok... I have to run in gp 2 Club rally! It not gonna be a daily driver. The car is stripped out, weights about 400lbs less than normal, without the cage. When I get that heavy ass cage in there, its gonna be back up to normal most likely.
I have to stick with a volvo engine. I can't use a ford v8 or chevy. What about the guy who says he used that b21 turbo? Its in a 145! I think his name is eric. So I am gettin the impression its a bad idea! It sounds good cause I think I can get that engine for a lot cheaper than I can get the b20 build up for. As for the dent. Its a bad one, thats for sure! I am thinking about cutting and welding but then I would have to relly on my friend who would do that! And I don't know if I can trust him. Its gonna be a big fat pain in the rear to get it fixed now. I guess I shoulda just left it alone. but I couldn't keep lookin at it so screwed /\!
Ok check back here in a while.
Matt
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Matt

OK, here's my poorly worded 2 cents.

A cage should be less than 400#. Inquire about such matters at various road racing or rally message boards.

There used to be a guy on this board who put a B23F into a 140. There is a little bit of info about it on iadr's page (click here). I have not heard from him in a long time, though. Alan Peterson was his name. Anyway, from that point adding a turbocharged model is another step.

Everyone's talking about base HP numbers of the OHC motors vs. hopped up OHV motors. Were I doing this, no way would I start with a plain old B23FT. Try asking at the Turbobricks messageboard for info. Better yet lookin the archives on the main site, turbobricks.org. A modified B23FT is a far cry from your mom's 740T. There's a guy there, John Lane, that has a super duper PRV V6 in his rally car that is something totally absurd like 450 hp. The details about the build are in the archives. But don't worry. He runs Group 5, I think.

You can avoid the complexities of the FI system with some sort of draw through carburator setup, I'd think. Not sure about that, though. But I know if I ever put one of those motors into an old car I'm totally going with Webers. No wires. Or not like K-jet or especially LH-jet. There are also many aftermarket systems that will totally replace everything from either system to something simpler and more generic. Systems include Megasquirt, Electromotive, Wolf, and others. Again, look at Turbobricks about that.

Um, what else. Oh yeah, the Corvette went to a DOHC motor recently. Like in the past couple years. They go like stink, but Chevrolet had the gall to call this some great step forward. About 35 years ago it would have been a greater step. But whatever.

OK, that's it until I can remember what else I was going to say. But anyway, I'd totally do it if you have the time, skillz and MONEY. Fabrication isn't cheap, especially if you're paying domeone else to do it. Plus, you will break parts on a regular basis. Just the nature of the sport. Just be ready with the healthy reserve funding.
--
Justin 70 1800E, 66 122E, 71 145S
Read vclassics!

There's a guy there, John Lane, that has a super duper PRV V6 in his rally car that is something totally absurd like 450 hp. The details about the build are in the archives. But don't worry. He runs Group 5, I think.

Me typin now...
Try 600hp, I think He runs in Open class.
I have read everyones posts, and emailed the guy I most think knows what there talkin about. Thanks for all the great info! i posted those pics of John's car in here. I took em check 240 gallery if u wanna see em. There are two pics in there... So I didn't get to patching up the damage, but I will get to that next year. Tomorrow! Happy New Years everyone!
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Matt

First, a B21 is to a B23 like a B18 is to a B20. Same basic engine, but with a bigger bore. 2.1 liter or 2.3.... I don't know for sure, but it is my understanding that most of the 240 turbos were 2.1 liter engines. Perhaps the later 740 turbos had a 2.3 though...

Second, there is nothing wrong with pushrods. Keep in mind that to this day, both the Corvette and the Viper run pushrod engines. And they run pretty quick as such....

Third, what sort of condition is your current B20? That .1 or .3 increase in displacement ain't gonna make a whole lot of difference. You also already have a fuel injection system that is well up to the task of your performance needs....so, if your rings and bores are in decent shape, you can get a decent bit more power without even pulling the engine. Just pull the head, have it shaved a bit to increase compression, have the biggest valves that fit stuck in there. Port & polish, double valve springs if you want to spin it real fast. You're in business. To the block, install a more radical cam.

You can bore the B20 to a ~2.2 or so...but it isn't really necessary.

Then install a proper exhaust system. You will be right there with the turbo motor if not better... And it will be much more tractable at the low end of the rpm range. And it fits in your car.

Keep in mind that the steering and suspension are totally different between a 140 and a 240, so even if you get that turbo engine in there, you may well run into more trouble routing the crucial exhaust plumbing...not to mention any number of other troubles. I'm pretty certain that building your B20 is going to be much less expensive in the long run....

I don't know many folks who race the vintage Volvos, but every one that I have seen is running a well built B20.... Heck, the B20 in "project 145" is as quick as both my sister in law's 240 turbo, but with more torque. And its just as quick as my 164...but with less torque.

Another advantage of using a B20... when you find a car with a better body, you can drop the engine in without having to do the conversion again... There are also LOTS of folks on the Brickboard here that will be able to offer advice from experience on building up a B20. Very few that can help with a conversion....

-Matt

Just remember that an unmodified B21 or B23 Turbo does NOT have big HP numbers.

Check out htis link: http://www.volvoworld.com/engspecs.html#b21

The highest stock HP numbers are 160-something - and that's with an intercooler plumbed in.

Most of the expense in rebuilding a B20 to get that sort of HP would be similar to a normal rebuild - big bore pistons instead of oversize standard ones, a better cam in place of the regular one, some head work in addition to hardened valve seats and a valve job. The other stuff (big exhaust, DCOE's) is stuff you'd have to do on the OHV swap anyway.

Otherwise you'd spend a lot of time and effort putting in a Turbo engine, then spend a lot of time and money getting more HP out of it. More ultimate potential there, however. Spend *lots* of money - use lower compression larger diameter pistons, a stroker crank, serious head work, and seriously higher boost, better rods, etc etc and you could probably have upwards of 300 or 400 hp.

Just my $0.02.

Plus for the amount of money spent on a B23ft conversion, you could hit up Vperformance for their b20 supercharger.

Has anyone out there ever tried a ford 2.3 turbo swap instead of a v8? They both hook right into a t5 tranny. Both my roomates have Merkurs that with a few bolt on extras (like intercooler, boost controller, intake, etc) dynoed at about 240hp @ 18 lbs of boost. Next thing planned is to flow the head put in a cam and get bigger injectors. I imagine after this a whole rebuild will be coming soon because he's not too nice on the engine. If he rebuilds it right there's all types of potential. I often read of kids getting 4-5 hundred ponies out of there 2.3 turbos in the UK and thats on non cosworth spec engines. The engine seems like it would have to be lighter than a v8 maybe lighter than b23 considering Volvos reputation for building heavy reliable engine blocks.

Aaron '69 142