Hi all! 1981 240DL B21F with the creative past...
Last time i posted it was with starting problems that got traced down to the dielectric grease on the ignition module wiring connector had dried out. Guess i need to watch that close since i live in the desert...
It still is weird to start. It cranks happily, but wont catch until it's damn well ready to. (it IS getting both spark and gas.) I put an ether port on the air intake line (pop bottle top glued in, open the top, hit it with starting fluid, close the cap, starts up) but thats inconvienient. I think the reason it doesn't like to start has to do with an oil or water leak, very very slow, getting into the cylinders, and having to be ejected before the car will start. at the moment i dont have money (or another running vehicle, thats coming up soon) to consider opening it up and doing a ring /head gasket job. the longer the car sits without being started, the longer i have to crank it before it will start. I put hotter spark plugs in and that shortened the crank time a bit, which adds to that theory. The fact that hitting it with starting fluid helps makes me think it burns out the crap faster also...

The shop i occasionally take it to (when i cant cope with it and have money, not often) put a relay in that if the starter cranks for more than 5 seconds and the car hasnt started, it triggers the fifth injector. That worked for a while, but doesnt seem to be working anymore, (the relay slipped out of position just before a heavy rainstorm and filled up with water, oops) and i cant afford a new one.
I used to have an old VW with a manual choke, i loved it, i could control the fuel/air by hand and start it easily. I would like to remove the dysfunctional relay and put in a manual switch to trigger the fifth injector. Would this work? is there a way others have done it? should i make it up? will i damage the ignition module if i do so?
So i guess the questions are:
1. Will i damage the ignition module if i hook up a manual override on the fifth injector? (my guess is no, thats what that relay was doing)
2. Is there a way others have done it, or do i need to figure it out myself? (doesnt look hard, the relay has all the wires for it right there to work with)
3. Is this just a BadIdea (TM) ? (if so, any better ones?)

Thanks for any thoughts on the matter :)
Delphine

Thank you all for input... have been through a computer crash and plumbing repairs plus overload at work. sorry it took so long to get back.
Fitz: have a cold start injector, its just not manual.And the relay that was installed to override it when needed has fried. The relay override worked well...
Ron: thats exactly what i want to do, so it does work?! yay!
Detailer: the plugs always look good when i pull them, i think they are just having to burn off a bit of crud in the cylinder before it will start...
JBowser: yep, thats what i want... good to know it can be done.
AlexZ: i'm getting proper fuel and air and spark. there is no malfunction. and i dont hit it with ether until i have been trying to start it for over 10 minutes and i am about to be very late to where i'm going....i have a good repair manual, and have checked all the fuel/ air/spark etc. it's all getting there (mechanics checked all that stuff too). The ether doesnt actually start the car, it makes it blow all the crud out of the cylinders quicker than just cranking it. it's after i ether it that it starts.

So it looks like this is doable and non hazardous to my engine. Cool. Thank you all very much :)
Delphine

Delphine,

I'm curious. You have reiterated that you believe the reason for your start problem is oil, crap, or water in the cylinders. How did you arrive at this conclusion? As far as the ether "blowing" this crap out I suppose it would as it is highly flammable.

Does your car have K-Jet (CIS) injection? My 1980 320i had CIS and it is the only car I have ever had with a hot-start issue. I went by the dealer (rare trip) and the service writer told me that some had this problem and some didn't. He also indicated they really didn't know the exact cause (or at least none of them could remember) but on models that exhibited this behavior got the hot-start kit. I've never heard anybody else mention this type of issue on a brick.

Does it always start hard, only when cold, or only when hot? Looking at the troubleshooting chart in the Volvo CIS manual a possible cause of hot start problems on non-turbo CIS systems is too low rest pressure which might lead to a vapor lock condition. Has your mechanic checked the fuel accumalator? It's kinda easy to forget it's down there! As Alex said, if it is a cold start issue then it is most likely the thermal time switch or associated wiring. Then again, if coolant temp is over about 90 degrees (good Texas late spring temperature!) then the thermal time switch won't tell the squirter to do anything.

But, if wiring up a manual switch to your squirter will do the trick it'll be a whole lot cheaper than paying somebody else to figure out what is actually wrong.

Let us know how you make out...

Justin

Justin & AlexZ: it is hard to start no matter what temprature it is. seems a bit harder the longer it has been sitting, not related to outside air temp (i'm in WAY southern New Mexico) I came up with the "small bits of fluid in the cylinder theory" by adding up the following symptoms: small touch of smoke (no odor) when it is started after sitting for more than 24 hours, small exterior oil and coolant leakge observed (not enough to need to add either one, just enough to be visible), old car that was given to me for free and all the gaskets i have tripped over so far have been dried out and slightly leaking, runs VERY well once it has started, ether makes it puff smoke (no odor) then it will usually start on the next try, plugs look clean all the time, changing to hotter plugs helped it start easier.... thats what i added up. sounds like a small leak to me.
Both the fuel accumulator and the thermotime switch were checked by the mechanic, including the wiring to the thermotime switch (he also made sure it was the correct switch for this climate/altitude). The relay the mechanic put in to trigger the fifth injector fixed the problem till the relay got toasted (fell off it's clamp, was belly up when it rained hard, filled up with water, i didnt see it, tried to start car, relay has been a dead object since then, not surprising :) ). The mechanic can find no apparant reason why it doesnt start, except that it wants a bit more gas when starting, hence the (fried) relay... He tested all the fuel lines etc for pinhole leaks or pressure problems, nothing. Checked the fuel pumps to be sure the pressure was right, made sure the ignitoin electronics were working correctly. He did not tear it down to check for small leak because i couldnt afford it (it's on my list) but he says it's quite possible, given the condition of the various gaskets he and i have replaced. And it does run very nicely once it starts...
So i guess i'm going outside to wire the fifth injector to a toggle switch and see if that helps it.
:)
Thank you :)
Delphine

Well, I'm kind of at a loss here... It looks like about everything has been covered. When it fires right up with a shot of ether makes me feel that it is somehow fuel related... The puff of smoke after sitting overnight very well could be a little oil leaking past valve guides/seals.

If hooking up the switch to the cold start squirter will get you going then that's a whole lot cheaper than trying to figure out the real cause.

Let us know of your success!

Justin

Ether is combustable, right? Right. So ether in the combustion chamber is just like extra fuel. Thus, I still say you're just not getting enough fuel. If you were, you would have had fouled plugs by 10 starting attempts (I assume you've pulled the plugs after you tried to start the car).

Anyways. According to the Volvo manuals, only the turbos (and maybe some V6s) got the impulse relay. So I assume yours was very much an aftermarket job. The impulse relay should be wired in parallel (not series) with the other thing (thermal time switch) controling that fifth injector.

If you're having cold start problems, the TTS is probably to blame. The thermal time switch is designed to pulse the cold start injector when the coolant temperature is at or below a specified temp.

If you're having hot start problems, the impulse relay is probably to blame. The impulse relay is designed to pulse the injector when the coolant is warm to avoid vapor lock.

Of course if the impulse relay wasn't wired in properly, that could be the cause right there. If you indeed have no hot start problems, you should have no problem ripping out the impulse relay and all of its wiring.

- alex

If nothing else works and you have to install a cold start injector, consider pulling a cold start injector from a Toyota Cressida. If I remember correctly, in my 1981 in line 6-cylinder engine had a 7th (cold-start) injector mounted (between cylinders 3&4) on the intake manifold a few inches away from the fuel rail. This injector should have a flange built onto it with two mounting holes in it. This should be pretty easy to adapt to just about anywhere on your Volvo's intake since the flange comes mounted on the injector.

(Back in the mid-90s, the Cressida was my first car and while diagnosing a bad fuel pump I could remove the Cold-Start injector and funnel gas directly into the intake and run the engine for test purposes.)

God bless,
Fitz Fitzgerald.
--
'87 Blue 245, NA 214K

I rigged a manual switch for the 5th injector (also known as cold start injector) after the thermal timer broke in my old '78 244. Worked like a champ. Be sure to look at a wiring diagram before doing this as I recall that one of the two leads to the injector goes straight to the starter and I rigged it up wrong the first time. When I pressed the button to actuate the injector the starter was triggered too!

Good Luck!!

Ron Tewksbury
1989 745 GL 177K miles
1987 245 DL 141K miles
1966 122s ?66K miles

there is a nifty little item called spark plug fowlers.These screw into the head and the spark plugs screw in to them.They cover the plug so oil/water dont hit the plug and should work untill fixed .Just a sugjestion

I had this same issue with a BMW 320i, had trouble hot starting. BMW did a TB and released a "kit" that was an impulse relay much as you describe, BUT I didn't want to shell out the $130 they wanted for it. The service manager agreed that it was way overpriced and said , "Just run 12 volts to a push button switch, and then to the cold start squirter and if it won't start give it a squirt. That's what we did before the hot start kit came out!"

It would be good to troubleshoot the accumulator issue as Alex suggests but a $2 switch might give you "warm fuzzies" just like your old choke handle did!

Putting on nomex drawers in anticipation of flames directed my way for daring to suggest "rigging" something...


Justin B.
83 Turbo

Your car is probably not starting because it's not getting enough fuel.

Try turning the key to start for a moment, just enough to trip the fuel pump relay to trigger the main pump, and let it go. Do this 2 or 3 times. Then try and start the car.

If that helps, your fuel accumulator is probably toast.

Your pre-pump and/or pickup screen and hose may also be toast, requiring you to keep your tank more than 1/2 full for optimum results.

Lots of things could have gone wrong, but you really should do two things:

STOP PUTTING ETHER IN THE ENGINE

and then invest the money in a good repair manual. The Bentley manual is about $40 (or less depending on whom you buy it from), and well worth the money. Yes, it only goes back to 83.. but the turbos had a very similar K-Jet setup.

- alex

'85 244 Turbo
'84 245 Turbo