I have new tires (all season) - ok - I know all season is not as good as snow tires, but this car drives like shit when there is even very little snow or residue on the road. It fishtails (I think that is the right term - the back end of the car slides all over the place) I had to put tube sand in the rear to help it settle down. I'm not sure - do I just have crappy new tires? Do all of these cars drive like this?

I have experienced similar difficulties during the vermont winters in my 88' 245DL, I recently purchased a set of Gislaven Nordfrost snow tires, OEM Volvo, which have made driving much better. The rear end of the wagon is very light and takes a light touch while driving in the snow. Like any car handling it in adverse conditions amounts to experience; go out and drive in the snow! Our family having owned 200 wagons since 83', I can tell you however that the sandbag trick is not uncommon.

Good Luck!

pretend yor enging is cold and be gentil with the gs pedal

Volvos are quite good in snow for a RWD car, so I see the solution as pretty simple:

- get decent snow tires on the rear
- work on your driving technique
--
Bob (81-244GL B21F, 83-244DL B23F, 94-944 B230FD plus grocery-getter Dodge minivan, MGB, and numerous old motorcycles)

If you're traveling in a straight line and it tends to fishtail when you speed up a little it's almost certainly worn track rod bushings.
In the snow, does the car leave four tire tracks or two (do the rear tires follow in the path of the fronts)? If it's four, replace those bushings.
--
'80 DL 2 dr

Thanks for the help - I replaced those bushings with poly about 3 weeks ago.

I think you may be refering to the torque rod bushings which are different than what I have described. Did you replace four bushings or only two?
--
'80 DL 2 dr

Sorry - Are you talking about the panhard rod bushings? Those I didn't replace - the bar seemed very tight - like they didn't need to be replaced. I'll check again.

Yes, the panhard rod bushings.
--
'80 DL 2 dr

The panhard rod bushings don't often wear out. It does a pretty good job of keeping the axle in line even with the original rubber bushings in racing conditions.

No no we don't want Volvolina racing.
--
David Hunter

Dear Brickiacs:

For comparison: I spent two winters in NJ with my 1980 wagon--it was NO TROUBLE (I did live in a relatively flat area). One day I drove 7 miles to work in oh maybe 6" of snow, with no recent plowing, NO PROBLEM, when only 10% of the company made it in and most of those came on the train. Of course I had the road to myself so I could be a little more aggressive.

Buuuut...This car was/is a stick shift. And at the time it had the original-type Michelin XZX, which were not officially snow tires but had a real mud-and-snow-looking tread with lots of transverse gaps.

Now I have a 1992 wagon with Ewwwww! auto transmission. I'm thinking about a winter trip back East. This vehicle has Dunlop A60s, 195/70x14, which ARE officially all-season rated but don't look nearly as aggessive tread as the old XZX.

Am I asking for trouble with this setup?

Thanks for any help you can provide.

Doug Harvey

I don't have an answer, but I was pondering that same question. I've never had a problem with my '87 244 (M47 and all-season tires) in the snow, and I often drive home from work in the early AM, before the plow trucks are out.

I also drive fairly slow in the slush, so that might be a factor.

Keith
--
1983 245 Turbo, 165K miles; 1987 244 DL, 272K miles; 1980 244 DL (RIP); 1966 Ford Bronco- straight six, three-on-the-tree, NO frills

Even after driving manual for 30 years, my personal experiences are that an auto box is better under slippery conditions. When starting from a standstill under difficult conditions (uphill, and/or deep snow) I find it harder to not get wheelspin with a manual box, even if I'm starting in second. My AW71 engages that little bit smoother than I manage with a clutch. Also, if I have been spinning, and need to rock the car back and forth to get the wheels up from the slippery hole I made, I find that the auto box is better for this. R-D-R-D is easier than R-clutch-1-clutch-R-clutch-1.

The one thing I am uncertain of, after my two winters experience with the auto, is what happens if I drive aggressively into a corner, the rear breaks loose and I step off the gas. With a manual I would just press the clutch and counter-steer. Done it countless times, it's a reflex. What happens with an auto? The engine's braking power has at least in theory the potential to lock the wheels if the road is slippery, but I feel that my box is so smooth that there is no real danger. I could be wrong though, one more reason to drive carefully.

Erling.
--
My 240 Page

I like the manual for rocking the car back and forth to get out of a hole. If I try to go forward a little in first, then push in the clutch and let the car roll back, then back on the gas when it rocks forward. I haven't found the need to go in reverse AND forward. As long as there's SOME traction, I can build up momentum and get moving. With snow tires, I've never been stuck and I'm hoping to keep it that way.

I feel it's roughly the same as stepping on the clutch. The auto allows little torque either way when the engine rpm's drop. At 4000 rpm it's a different story, but at 1500-2000 rpm the trans causes little engine braking. You could always push the shifter up into Neutral too...
I think they're about the same, having spent last winter with my 86 and 87 244's with automatics, and this year the 87 244 with M47. The big difference is made with the tires. I would do just as well in an automatic, given good tires. Love my Gislaveds!

Today they took me to the end of a friend's LONG ice-covered drive to get a Christmas tree. Packed snow, melted once and re-frozen, with mud underneath it. No problem getting up and down the hills in his steep dirt driveway. (and my car rolled over 226,000 with a Christmas tree on the roof!)
--
Rob Bareiss, New London CT ::: '87 244DL/M47- 225K, 88 744GLE- 209K, 91 244 183K. Also responsible for the care and feeding of: 88 745GLE, 229K, 88 244GL, 146K, 87 244DL, 235K, 88 245DL, 236K

Snow tires will fix the problem. I would have suggested two for just the rear, which is what I use on my '87 244, but if your tires are so inept in minimal snow, then you definitely don't want to have to steer & stop with such poor snow traction. Afterall, snow tires on the rear only will let you get going quicker, but without equal traction on the front, you can't turn or stop nearly as well. I brake early and sometimes use the handbrake to slow down in heavy snow.

The suggestions to practice in an open parking lot are good. Learn to feel when the car is sliding, which end is sliding, and how much to countersteer and you can regain control. The nice thing about RWD is when the rear starts to slide as a result of wheel spin, letting off the gas can help correct the slide. If you're just making a turn without accelerating and the back end starts to slide, you might be turning in too quickly. I doubt this is happening on snow because you need good grip to make that happen, and it sounds like you don't have it.

If you stick with the all seasons, the car will slide in the snow. Get used to it and learn to control it. If you're not comfortable with a sliding car, then consider snow tires on all 4 corners, espeically if you live in a northern climate with frequent snowfall.

Recently we saw a lady driving a large well equipped SUV in light snow conditions. Could not tell you what transmission mode she was, i doubt that she new either. She was out of control and would not go over 5 MPH. Stops consisted of 4 wheels locked and steering cranked all the way left or right. She could actual make it slide sideways on all 4 wheels from a standstill. Could only get it moving with great difficulty once she stopped. I never saw such terrible driving, she was very nervous.

We came to the conclusion she was one of those idiot 2 foot drivers with feet jammed on the brake and gas at once in some misguided effort to keep control or something. Under these conditions it is very easy to lock the front wheels, thereby loosing all steering control and spin the back wheels thereby fishtailing.

No they don't all drive like that it's the drivers who drive them like that.

Typically too much power causes the wheels to spin, once you have em spinning the back end will slide left or right, that is for certain. Its that simple.

Good gripping tires or even snows will certainly reduce spinning and the resulting fishtails.

A good experience to learn to drive on snow is a parking lot on a Sunday morning after a snowfall. You must know that there are no barriers or curbs. Get in there and go crazy. The skill and experience gained will stay with you for a lifetime.
--
David Hunter

when are you fishtailing (oversteering) exactly? if you're just cruising along going straight on ahead and it happens, something's not right.

but if you're doing something like turning around a corner and this happens, you simply need to take it slower. it's rear wheel drive, and that's just how it is.
--
Kenric Tam
1990 Volvo 740 base sedan (B230F)
My Volvo 'Project'

I'm spinning when turning from a complete stop and pressing VERY lightly on the accelorator - also when there is snow on the ground going down hill.

Whether or not the rear wheels spin is up to the driver and how much power is applied. If your wheels spin when coasting down hill there is something very very wrong such as an idle speed of 2500rpm or something, but I doubt that. Spinning can only occur when you step on the gas, the more slippery the road surface the easier it is to spin your wheels. If extremely slippery your car may spin and sit still. Sliding sideways of the rear end will almost always occur when you spin the wheels.
--
David Hunter

I am not certain what you are comparing your rear wheel drive car to- most people today buy and drive FWD vehicles that understeer vs. what you are describing (oversteer). As a consequence there is a rude awakening when behind the wheel of a RWD car. To do what you describe you are applying more power than the situation warrants- this can happen accidentily or deliberately.

Since you are uncomfortable with it, I suggest a number of remedies: first, go for a set of 4 snow tires that are suited to the car- don't recommend a pair, do 4. The classic snows are Gislaved tires from Sweden, but there are several other viable ones.

Second, place a sand bag or two over the rear axle or anything that is real heavy and low- plate steel would be fine, but not practical. Last, especially if you are still struggling witht the car's habit, look up a driving skid school. These schools will teach you how to regain control of possible dangerous oversteer situations- they are not race schools. They are especially good at converting timid drivers into confident ones. And, confident drivers will always choose a vehicle that oversteers because it is easier to predict and control- that is, when you are in control.

By the way, in the evnt that a skid school isn't operting in your area (oddly they are staged as summer events often on wet pavement), go to a shopping centre parking lot after a snow storm and have a ball (watch for the light standards!). In this way you will spin the car in as many differnt directions as you wish withour any peril. the result will be somewat akin to the school.

This one is close to me, but it will serve as an example:

http://www.skidcontrolschool.com/

Doug (Doogle)
'89 244DL with 244k Kms (148k Mi)
Toronto, On. (where a small snow storm is the end of the world!!!)

Thanks for the thought - that's not it though. My dad drove it with the same problem - he drove a cab in the city for 15 years and has been driving for like 50 years. He too thought the car handles very, very poorly in snow. As an example, I stoped at a light, snowy residue over the ground, and when the light changed, and I went to turn onto the road, very slight pressure on the gas, the car's ass end spun out from under me, big time. Those simple snow conditions make me feel very uncomfortable driving this car. I think it just needs snow tires maybe. I don't know.

Your 'very slight pressure' on the gas is still too much given the traction.

Now, there are two things: one is to improve traction, another is to reduce the power.

Power-wise: Maybe your throttle body might be out of adjustment somehow, and you get too much power as soon as you exit idle. Or your transmissions' clutches may be running tight, thus not allowing enough slip. You have an automatic, right? If you have a manual, release the clutch very slowly (i.e. deliberately let it slip) and never get going off the 1st gear -- always use the 2nd.

Traction-wise: Obviously, before thinking about all this, make sure rear end geometry is not bad for some reason -- that would kill the traction. Your car might be running with overload springs, which don't help if you're underloaded. Or the shocks may be "frozen". Or something. So make sure your rear end's geometry is tip-top before you condemn anything else. Getting the snow tires will improve the traction, but don't bet on it if the geometry (toe in at least) is bad.

Cheers, Kuba

Correcting myself, rear end doesn't have "toe in" to adjust, right? Assuming I understand toe-in correctly. Anyway, there may be other oddities about a rear end's geometry. A post-accident car that has been "fixed up" but not quite could have similar symptoms.

Cheers, Kuba

How's your alignment? A car that's aligned only tolerably (especially toe) can be scary in the snow... All of the shortcomings of the alignment (and joint/bushing health etc...) are magnified when there's little traction to be had...

I've routinely take my family on winter vacations in New England for decades, and I've driven through all sorts of blizzards -- snow, ice, you name it! And I've found that all my Volvos, from '73 on, have always been great in snowy conditions (okay, I also routinely used the best studded snow tires such as Nokia (now Nokians), too, but even an early snowfall at home that came before I had a chance to mount them were handled very well by my Volvos). The station wagons are better, of course (more weight in the rear, from all that heavy glass), but the Volvos in general are MUCH better than all the other cars I've had (my Mercedes-Benz sedans (e.g., 300E) have been particuarly awful -- the rears are too light, and their final drive ratios are too low -- i.e., too much torque, promoting wheelspin -- see below). I even have a 4WD '84 Mercedes Gelaendewagen (gray market), a.k.a., GWagen, that I leave home when it snows -- it can't be controlled with as much finesse as the Volvo (it's more of a brute, good for snowdrifts 2 to 3 feet deep, rather than very slippery light snow and ice on a roadway). The higher ratio on the AW-70 (3-speed+OD), in high gear, lets you go without letting the wheels break traction and spin -- thus, no fishtailing.

One thing I might ask.... does your volvo, by any chance, have the limited-slip differential option? If you do, that would be a reason for your problems.

Contrary to popular myth, limited slips (while great at the racetrack or in sand) are awful in snow or ice, because they will cause both rear wheels to spin -- whereas the usual, open differential will spin only one wheel. Why is that good? When a wheel spins, it loses all "lateral traction" (which is needed to resist sliding sideways). As long as you have one of your two wheels not spinning, it can hold the rear of your car in proper line. Spin both wheels and there is nothing to keep your rear end from fishtailing around in a circle.

Otherwise, I'd say just be judicious in your application of the gas pedal, and perhaps buy a set of good snow tires. If you are using too much pedal, it's usually because you're relying on wheelspin to "power" your way through the snow and ice because your tires don't have enough traction. With snow tires, you'll need less gas pedal application to advance, and that means less wheelspin, and that means less fishtailing.

Limited slip will easily spin both wheels at once as you say, and that is not good. But it's purpose is 2 dig in both wheels at once to get you moving. It's up to the driver to control and stop the spinning.
--
David Hunter

I bought the car used - how could I tell if it has the limited slip?

If you have a 1990, the chance of a limited slip is essentially zero.

Limited slip differentials have always been a dealer-installed (not a factory) option -- they're still available at the warehouse, and sometimes a previous owner might have it installed.
I admit that it's a remote possibility (they're not common, by any means), but it's a possibility.
I also admit that it's most likely that Volvolina is just too heavy with her gas pedal application.

Jack up one rear wheel. Put the car in neutral with the park
brake off, making sure to chock the front wheels beforehand. If
you can turn the wheel which is jacked up easily, you don't. If
you can't turn it easily, then you do.

-b.

The car is rear wheel drive. Meaning that if the rear loses
grip while accelerating, it does start sliding. The advantage of
this setup is that you don't lose the ability to steer when the
rear wheels are spinning.
.
Now, for solving the problem: putting sand in the back may in
fact be a bad idea because the added weight will act as a pendulum -
once the rear end is sliding, stopping it will be more difficult.
Ever driven a Porsche 911 with the engine behind the rear axle :)?
Being careful and smooth with the use of the accelerator will
prevent the rear wheels from breaking free in the first place.
So will starting in second gear, which limits the max. torque
available to the rear wheels. And, yes, a set of four snow
tires will go a long way towards increasing the grip that
you have to play with. I have a set of Dunlop Graspics mounted
on 15" wheels all around, and the car is actually fun to drive, even
with 4-5" or snow on the roads.
.
-b.
.
ObFun: With no other cars/people in the vicinity, deliberately
breaking the rear end loose in order to make your turning radius
_really_ tight. Driving at the car's limits in slo/mo is an
amusing experience.

Forgot to add- Before I ever drove it in the snow - I installed front and rear swaybars from an 81 turbo - could that be the problem?

It's your tires. I have turbo sways, and Bilstein Touring struts on my 87, and it handles very well- they seem to be a benefit, not a hindrance to snow traction. I am running Gislaved Nord Frost II's in the rear only on steel wheels, size 185/70R14, with my Michelin MXV+4's in the front, my year-round tires on my Virgo rims. Yes, the tire sizes are mismatched. Doesn't matter- the NordFrosts are so good that they go and stop in the snow. The car feels stuck to the road, or at least capable of getting up those hills and stopping coming down them. The car is stuck to the road.
My neighbor, who has brand new Pirelli P4000's, 185/70-14, on her 88 745 wagon, can't get going to save her life- they're all seasons and they are AWFUL in the snow. They simply will not bite.
Weight in the rear is a good thing- I add about 150 lbs to the trunk of each car for a little extra traction. I still drive cautiously, and I expect that conditions will be worse "just around the bend" as I go, but I can go and I can stop. I can usually spin the tires or slide if I want to- but I feel I can safely keep up with anything else on the road. We've just gotten our second round of miserable winter weather, and I drove home through about the worst of it. No troubles, even backing into my driveway, which is always entertaining when it's slippery.
--
Rob Bareiss, New London CT ::: '87 244DL/M47- 225K, 88 744GLE- 209K, 91 244 183K. Also responsible for the care and feeding of: 88 745GLE, 229K, 88 244GL, 146K, 87 244DL, 235K, 88 245DL, 236K

well, the swaybars do make the suspension less compliant, which
sometimes can reduce tire contact with the ground - i.e. the
suspension is less "independent," so going over a bump with the
left front wheel will tend to force the right wheel up. So, they
will reduce traction on rougher roads, and if you don't have much
traction to play with in the first place...
.
-b.