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760T RUNNING RICH QUESTIONS 700

1985 760 Turbo

I am still trouble shooting a rich running engine, but have made progress so far with the help of all of you on the board - many thanks as I have learned a lot but have some questions I would like to offer anyone interested:

1. I am not sure yet how the throttle position switch can effect fuel mixture -if it does. can a failure here effect the AMM?

2. Can an injector impulse amplifier be sending too weak a signal and cause a low spark? If so can I measure the spark jump with a spark tool (I have) to see if I am getting enough burn from my plugs?

3. It When I unplug the AMM I get a noticible change in engine rythm but the car runs just as rich - as though it is always in the warm up phase (O2 sensor reads .96 V after a steady rise from .45V at start up). Can I diagnose a bad AMM function?

4. Can the Hall sensor create a bad mixture? Ingine timing is at 12 degrees at idle and egnine seems to idle fine - timing advances smoothly when throttle is increased. Does this indicate a good sensor?


Below is my previous post for some background on what I have done:



I have been trying to figure out a rich running problem for some while. I have an 1985 760 Turbo with 185000 miles. The initial symptoms were the car would run for 5-10 minutes and then choke - I would wait and then start again, go 2 miles and it dies again. After being towed home I spent the next 6 months trying to fix the problem - after many parts, time, and research I have learned a lot about the car but not yet fixed the problem.

Car will start and run fine but O2 sensor reads between 8.9 and 9.3 Volts meaning a rich mixture - will typically choke on gas about 15-20 minutes after running.

Here is what has been in order over a 6 month:

-Throttle Body cleaned
-Fuel pressure regulator has been replaced
-Fuel relay checked – operational
-Injector Ballasts tested for proper resistance - check
-Fuel pumps both working – audible
-All fuses intact
-Air filter clean
-Hall Sensor gauge jumps when cranking - assume operational
-Cap and Rotor replaced
-Coil to Distributor Wire Replaced
-Coil swapped with new coil - no fix
-ECT (Engine Temp Sensor) replaced
-O2 sensor replaced - readings are true - leans when induce air leak
-Engine wire harness - removed - much corrosion, replaced all bad wiring and --installed
-Injectors cleaned and balanced.
-Engine computer swapped - no fix
-No leaks found in piping


Thank you









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    PS..does disconnecting the AMM and running the engine work? 700

    You should be able to disconnect the AMM (ignition off) and start/run the engine. If your rich running goes away, problem is AMM.

    Doing this puts the engine into limphome mode...the ecu defaults to an rpm-linked injection map.








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      PS..does disconnecting the AMM and running the engine work? 700

      Well disconnected AMM and the engins still ran rich - finally found the fitting to assemble a fuel pressure gauge so I'll run that test tomorrow - if that checks out then I can only suspect the AMM and try another swap - have gone through all the diagnostics I can think off. Just keeping at it. Thanks for all tips!








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      PS..does disconnecting the AMM and running the engine work? 700

      Intersting info..I'll try unhooking the AMM and starting the car - so I can rule that out. I always wondered why the throttle switch was required - Thanks for the helpful explaination. I'll need to check that at the ECU going by the manual. I also have a spare ECT sensor I'm going to try.

      Thanks for the help - I'll do the tests and let you know what happens. Never thought of starting the car with AMM disconnected - always pulled it off while car was running. Thanks!








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    760T RUNNING RICH QUESTIONS 700

    Well, the idle switch DOES affect feedback to the ecu. See, the switch must be closed at idle to put the engine into closed loop (well, another switch has to be closed too..the engine temp switch indicating the engine has warmed up) in order for the ecu to decrease the injector duty cycle (lean the engine out) when the 02 sensor indicates too rich.

    When you cleaned the throttle body, one of the checks is to listen for the click on the idle switch...you should hear a click with the slightest movement of the throttle plate. If you do, the next check is to check for continuity at the connector...check the wiring diagram, I don't remember which contacts have continuity at closed butterfly. But you can experiment...the trick here is if you have continuity at pins 1-2 it should OPEN (no continuity) when you move the throttle a little. IIRC, pin 3 is the full throttle contact...it's used on the turbo-+ option to tell the ecu and turbo-+ processers that the throttle is wide open.








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      760T RUNNING RICH QUESTIONS 700

      Okay - Ran the tests without any successful results.

      1. Starting car with AMM disconnected yeilds the same rich signal from 02 sensor - steady climb from .4V to .9V - car runs pretty smooth for limp-home mode. Reconnected AMM and engine hisitated and then ran as before - 02 sensor measured a slight decline from .97 V to .92 V. (AMM seems to work?)

      2. Checked Throttle switch and can hear click upon slight movement of throttle , checked connection to switch, seems okay, when switch is disconnected RPM's rise a bit and when plugged in RPM's go back down to idle. (seems okay)

      3. Checked engine coolant temp. sensor and it yeilded a similar reading as other new sensor - it is also recently installed so should be no problem with sensor output - also saw ohms at ECU were same as at sensor.

      4. ECU swap yielded no new results - still rich

      Additionally:

      4. Disconnected Idle Air Valve and nothing changed in engine tone, also disconnected Knock sensor and nothing seemed to change.

      5. Checked timing and engine is at 12 degrees at idle - rises steadly with throttle and at high RPM will shift back and forth between about 5 degrees.

      Questions:

      This seems to lead me to the two remaing parts of the FI system the Hall Sensor and the Power Stage.

      1. Can the Hall sensor effect the duration of the injector openning to create a rich condition?

      2. Can a bad poswer stage screw up the duration of the injector openning to create a rich condition?

      3. Is something as simple as bad ignition wires (dist. to plugs) - something I have not changed create a weak spark and not detonate the fuel - another rich condition

      4. Would a blocked Catalytic convertor not allow exhaust to move out and therefore create a rich condition? I thought this would effect the airflow through the AMM but now I am thinking not since the turbo and the pistons are creating the draw on the intake side - maybe I have a blocked exhaust system?

      Thanks for all help!









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    760T RUNNING RICH QUESTIONS 700

    Power stage. After 15 minutes it gets hot and starts to fail

    Cheers - Dave








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      760T RUNNING RICH QUESTIONS 700

      When the car stops running it is due to flooding from the rich condition - so a power stage failure would mean that there is no power going to the injectors at all. If I dry out the plugs it will start up again no problem. Just that the car runs rich. Can a bad power stage create a rich running condition? If not than It seems I would rule that out.









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        760T RUNNING RICH QUESTIONS 700

        The power stage drives the ignition, not injectors.

        Cheers - Dave








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          760T RUNNING RICH QUESTIONS 700

          Right - sorry confused that, so would a powerstage failure cause a weak spark? Is that what may contribute to the rich running? Should the car just die if I unplug it? Is there way to test this? I'm begging to think it may be either this or the Hall sensor given the tests that JohnB suggested. Thanks for all the info.







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