Hi all!

I'm contemplating the acquisition of a 1970 164. After going to see the car, a few questions popped up in my mind.

In general the car seemed to be in fair-to-good condition: no rust, repainted in original color a few years ago, interior (mostly seats) well worn but not torn, generally original except for the LPG installation. I didn't make a test drive, just saw the car go forward and backward 10-20 meters in the garage with no strange sounds. The owner didn't seem keen on a test drive "because it was not registered, insured, etc.".

* The engine seems to have good power, but the idle was pretty sorry, almost stalling a few times. According to the owner, the engine was rebuilt, but the carburettors (twin Strombergs) were leaky. The car smelt like it ran very rich. Can worn out carburettors make it that bad? (I never dealt with dual carburettors before.) Reconditioning them would amount to at least a 400 euro invoice, so I would like to be as sure as possible this is the only flaw on the engine. Most notably, I wondered whether this car would be suffering from the "flat cam lobe" syndrome.

* According to the owner, the car has an overdrive. However the right stalk on the steering column was missing. (The mechanism for it seemed to still be inside the column.) Disregarding whether it has overdrive or not for now, are the turn signals operated by that stalk as well, or are they operated from a stalk on the left? Stupid, I know, but I simply forgot to check if there was a stalk there...
(Also, assuming no overdrive, would the turn signals still be operated by a stalk on the left?)

* The door handles are painted in the body color (dark blue). Is this a sign of a cheaper repaint? (The owner seemed proud of the repaint, I thought it looked fair but certainly not top-notch.)

* One rear brake seemed to drag; hard enough to make the car impossible to push forward by hand. Considering it has not been driven for about one year, is this hard to fix (like taking out the brake pads and trying to twist or push in the pistons)? Or would it be best to trailer it to the mechanic's? I would bring it in to have the brakes looked over anyway. (The problem is that I nor any of my close relatives or friends have a car with a trailer hitch, otherwise renting a trailer would be easy enough.)

In general the owner did point out several weaknesses of the car, but I found other, smaller things that he would minimize. No deal breakers though, as of yet... Obviously no money will change hands before I make a real test drive and try out all the accessories, but I would like to know these things so I can decide whether to further pursue this car or not. Also, I think the price would have to come down a bit: 5500 euros for a decent but mechanically challenged car with 1000-1500 euros work before it is drivable sounds like a lot to me.

Thanks!

LPG? As in Propane? With stombergs? I had a 164 that had been converted to propane, and I put it back to gas, but it didn't work... the compression had been bumped up so high, I basically had to run racing fuel.

Sounds a bit on the pricey side to me... I would think that for that price, you should be able to get a near perfect, unrestored original example. A substandard respray is worse than needing paint in my opinion.

As George said, you would do well to lose the strombergs and get some SU carbs for it.

-Matt
--
-Matt '70 145s, '65 1800s, '66 122s wagon, others inc. '53 XK120 FHC

"LPG? As in Propane? With stombergs? I had a 164 that had been converted to propane, and I put it back to gas, but it didn't work... the compression had been bumped up so high, I basically had to run racing fuel."

It's a mixture of propane and butane. Even though the octane number of LPG is higher than that of gas, they do not change the compression ratio here. Instead you get a bi-fuel system and go from the one to the other with the flick of a switch.

"Sounds a bit on the pricey side to me..."

Yes, after I get my research on pending costs done and still want to go forward with it, I will make a substantially lower offer.

"...you would do well to lose the strombergs and get some SU carbs for it."

Funny how everybody says that. I get along really well with the Stromberg in my Amazon. It's been restored to new condition, sure, but I'm careful of dismissing parts for poor performance when they're worn.

I am probably the right guy to answer most of your questions since I have
been driving a 1969 164 since 1971 and have encountered most of the problems
you cite. I'll deal with them one by one.

"the carburettors (twin Strombergs) were leaky. The car smelt like it ran very rich. Can worn out carburettors make it that bad?"
Absolutely. 400 Euros sounds like a lot to fix though. If it were mine I would
find a pair of good SU HIF6 carbs and throw the Strombergs in the trash. Unless
you are planning to use LPG I would take that system off. You should be able to
find a pair of HIF6 carbs and get them fixed up (new seals, float valves) for
a LOT less than that. Minor mods may be required to the aircleaner box to bolt
up.

"Most notably, I wondered whether this car would be suffering from the'flat cam lobe' syndrome."
It is a distinct possibility. You can check fairly easily by pulling the valve
cover and measuring the lift of each valve from the top head surface to the
valve spring retainer both closed and fully open. They should all be around
9.5 mm and they should all be the same. If one or more is different, you have
a bad cam. I assume you are in Europe, so a good replacement cam will be
easier to get. The OEM "D" cam would be ideal for your engine and will give
additional power. Be sure and put in new lifters and be sure they are
adequately lubricated and free to rotate in their bores. Especially if the
car does not have air conditioning, the cam can be replaced without pulling the
engine.

"However the right stalk on the steering column was missing. (The mechanism for it seemed to still be inside the column.)"
That is a pretty good indication that the handle has been broken off. Look
under the car and see if there is a rugby-sized item on the rear of the tranny.
That would be the Laycock-DeNormanville J-type overdrive unit.

"turn signals operated by that stalk as well, or are they operated from a stalk on the left?"
Turn signals and dipswitch are on the handle on the left.

"Is this a sign of a cheaper repaint?"
It is certainly NOT a sign of a first-class job!

" One rear brake seemed to drag; hard enough to make the car impossible to push forward by hand. Considering it has not been driven for about one year, is this hard to fix?"
My guess is that 90% or more of the 140s and 164s have this problem. It is most
likely the tiny brake lines that swell shut and act like a check valve. Pedal
pressure is plenty to open them up and give good braking but there is no
pressure back to allow the brake fluid to flow back to the master cylinder
through the swollen place. A new brake hose at that wheel (preferably
something better than OEM) will in all likelihood solve this problem or at
least render it easily soluble.

You didn't cite the mileage on this car, and I'm not sure what the exchange
rate is to USD but it sounds like a pretty high price to me, at least for
anyplace in the US for anything but a pretty well restored, low mileage car.
If it has no rust I could see it going for maybe US$2000. They may be worth
a lot more wherever you are.




--
George Downs, Bartlesville, Oklahoma, Central US

George,

Thanks for your reply. I am in Belgium.

"400 Euros sounds like a lot to fix though."

That is the price I found on the web for an exchange kit at Scandcar. It might be cheaper to send in the old ones for reconditioning, although the previous one I had done (for a B20A engine) cost around 200 euros for a professional restoration. And I don't have the place to store the car while waiting for the carburettors to come back from the specialist. (The parking lot at work would be a possibility, although I don't think they'd be happy if they found out...)

Come to think of it, I should simply have checked for torn diaphragms first...

I might check with the Volvo club if they have good SU HIF6's in their warehouse. Are there any B30-specific things I should look for in them? Needles? Do they bolt directly to the Stromberg manifolds and connect to the throttle bars and choke cables? If not, that alternative becomes less attractive because my tinker-spacetime-quota are already being consumed nearly 100% by my Amazon. They would have to be bolt-on replacements.

"...so a good replacement cam will be easier to get"

Well, I'm not up for engine work on any car I buy now. I'm restoring the Amazon, and want a car for transportation as buses and railroads get less practical when friends move to hard-to-reach-by-public-transport places. Otherwise I'm a big fan of public transport though.

The guy claims the engine was rebuilt about 5000kms ago so I guess any cam problems would not yet be detectable? With a flat cam lobe, does it run well when accelerating? It seemed to run fine when accelerating, it was the idle that was bad.

"Unless you are planning to use LPG I would take that system off."

I am planning to use it, if I can have it upgraded to current regulations for not too much dineros. LPG = 0.38 euro/liter, gas = 1.20 euro/liter, with a 10% increase in fuel consumption for LPG. Even with 208 euros more road tax, it takes only about 3000km (2000mi) to reach break even. With a projected use of 10.000km (7500mi) a year, this is not insignificant. LPG pollutes less too, or so they say.

The engine looks good, and was (supposedly) restored about 5000kms (3000miles) ago. I have yet to see the receipts, but no receipts = no deal.

" One rear brake seemed to drag;..."
" My guess is that 90% or more of the 140s and 164s have this problem."

So you mean driving home with a dragging brake before fixing it would not really be too adventurous? I was thinking about possible detrimental effects of the heat that generates. (I'm talking about 100 miles.)

The brakes do seem to be good. He accelerated quite confidently in his garage and slammed the brakes shortly before taking out the door :-)

"It is certainly NOT a sign of a first-class job!"

No, I already thought so. Well, if I end up buying it, I might just take a rag soaked in brake fluid to them... I knew this property of brake fluid was going to come in handy at some point :-)

Mileage on the odometer: 170000km (120000mi). Body restored and repainted, engine restored (the manual gearbox was not). They are probably worth a lot more over here, there aren't many of them. However, I think the price is too high (5500 euros is more or less $6000). It is probably not much work to make it road worthy, but it will cost a lot to have it done. That may make him come to his senses. There don't seem to be many people interested in it either, he had only one person come look at it before me, and the ad had been out about 2 months before I called.

Sounds way too rough for even 3000 euros.

Running rich won't be the diaphrams in the Z-S but most likely the fuel enrichment circuit. I don't think exchange SET of Z-S for 400 euro is too horrible.

Definitely replace the brake line BEFORE driving. Hot brakes can lead to torched bearings (oil actually but sticky oil does not lubricate well).

A "rebuilt" engine could have used many old parts (and likely did). If the cam comes up "flat" take a pass unless the guy is willing to give you a big discount. The "cam problem" was really with the lifters and they tended to die quickly or not at all.

Mike!

Brake fluid might work to strip unwanted paint, but there are much, much better chemicals out there for that specific application.. all of which are nasty, but no worse than brake fluid...

As for strombergs... if they work, go ahead and keep 'em around. But the general consensus seems to be that if they need repair (moreso than jsut new diaphrams anyhow), its easier to replace 'em with SUs.

-Matt
--
-Matt '70 145s, '65 1800s, '66 122s wagon, others inc. '53 XK120 FHC

George,

Thanks for your reply. I am in Belgium.

"400 Euros sounds like a lot to fix though."

That is the price I found on the web for an exchange kit at Scandcar. It might be cheaper to send in the old ones for reconditioning, although the previous one I had done (for a B20A engine) cost around 200 euros for a professional restoration. And I don't have the place to store the car while waiting for the carburettors to come back from the specialist. (The parking lot at work would be a possibility, although I don't think they'd be happy if they found out...)

Come to think of it, I should simply have checked for torn diaphragms first...

I might check with the Volvo club if they have good SU HIF6's in their warehouse. Are there any B30-specific things I should look for in them? Needles? Do they bolt directly to the Stromberg manifolds and connect to the throttle bars and choke cables? If not, that alternative becomes less attractive because my tinker-spacetime-quota are already being consumed nearly 100% by my Amazon. They would have to be bolt-on replacements.

"...so a good replacement cam will be easier to get"

Well, I'm not up for engine work on any car I buy now. I'm restoring the Amazon, and want a car for transportation as buses and railroads get less practical when friends move to hard-to-reach-by-public-transport places. Otherwise I'm a big fan of public transport though.

The guy claims the engine was rebuilt about 5000kms ago so I guess any cam problems would not yet be detectable? With a flat cam lobe, does it run well when accelerating? It seemed to run fine when accelerating, it was the idle that was bad.

"Unless you are planning to use LPG I would take that system off."

I am planning to use it, if I can have it upgraded to current regulations for not too much dineros. LPG = 0.38 euro/liter, gas = 1.20 euro/liter, with a 10% increase in fuel consumption for LPG. Even with 208 euros more road tax, it takes only about 3000km (2000mi) to reach break even. With a projected use of 10.000km (7500mi) a year, this is not insignificant. LPG pollutes less too, or so they say.

The engine looks good, and was (supposedly) restored about 5000kms (3000miles) ago. I have yet to see the receipts, but no receipts = no deal.

" One rear brake seemed to drag;..."
" My guess is that 90% or more of the 140s and 164s have this problem."

So you mean driving home with a dragging brake before fixing it would not really be too adventurous? I was thinking about possible detrimental effects of the heat that generates. (I'm talking about 100 miles.)

The brakes do seem to be good. He accelerated quite confidently in his garage and slammed the brakes shortly before taking out the door :-)

"It is certainly NOT a sign of a first-class job!"

No, I already thought so. Well, if I end up buying it, I might just take a rag soaked in brake fluid to them... I knew this property of brake fluid was going to come in handy at some point :-)

Mileage on the odometer: 170000km (120000mi). Body restored and repainted, engine restored (the manual gearbox was not). They are probably worth a lot more over here, there aren't many of them. However, I think the price is too high (5500 euros is more or less $6000). It is probably not much work to make it road worthy, but it will cost a lot to have it done. That may make him come to his senses. There don't seem to be many people interested in it either, he had only one person come look at it before me, and the ad had been out about 2 months before I called.