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Protective dad needs purchase advice for a daughter's car 700

Hi. I've got some questions on the 700 series.
I've owned Volvos since early '70's, but (except for 164's) only 240's. I'm also a regular on the 200 and 140-160 forums. And I like to work on my cars, not just fixing and maintaining but also improving (e.g., IPD antisway bars, Eurosport Tuning's brakes, etc.). But I've never given any attention to 700's (heard weird things about them -- see below).
Now, my daughter (who in H.S. just used one of my cars, and in college couldn't keep a car at school) has graduated and needs a car for grad school and work. So I want to get her a Volvo, of course. I want something no less reliable (and simple to fix, without complex electronics) than 240's, since she'll be 250 miles away (out of reach of my "helping hand" and at the mercy of local mechanics, should problems develop), and without any design weaknesses. I automatically thought of a '93 240, but someone pointed out that the 700's are even safer because of their SIPPs design -- noteworthy point?

This is my first time on this 700 forum -- and I've got some questions. Given that I'm only considering a 4 cyl., normally aspirated red block (no sixes, and no turbos), then re the aforementioned "weird" things, and in comparison to 240's, is it true, as examples, that:
1) the 700's have some sort of "floating" or "sliding" (???) brake calipers that are prone to jamming (so the pads don't apply equal force on both sides of the rotors)? I do my own brake jobs (rotors, calipers, etc.) on my 240's -- I would change all the rotors and calipers before I turned it over to her, so what would I face doing such a job on a 700? Easier, harder?
2) the 700's have a weaker automatic transmission -- not an AW70 but some other brand that will overheat if you rev the engine in neutral (I think I heard that the pump is driven by the output shaft, instead of the input shaft)?
3) the 700's never got the improved wiring insulation that later 240's got?
4) certain models of 700's have an independent rear suspension, something to avoid in used car (viz., repair problems)?

If any of the above aren't true, please set me straight -- that's why I'm inquiring here.

And anyone with experience with both 200's and 700's, do the 700's perform (handling, braking, etc., regarding "active" safety) substantially better than 240's? Are they worth the change? It isn't the cushy ride that I'm interested in, but definite improvements for my daughter's well-being.

Anything to watch out for (peculiar to 700's) that I should consider when picking a 700?

Any advice would be very much appreciated. In advance, thank you all very much.








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    Protective dad needs purchase advice for a daughter's car 700

    1) the 700's have some sort of "floating" or "sliding" (???) brake calipers that are prone to jamming (so the pads don't apply equal force on both sides of the rotors)? I do my own brake jobs (rotors, calipers, etc.) on my 240's -- I would change all the rotors and calipers before I turned it over to her, so what would I face doing such a job on a 700? Easier, harder?

    This is one of two areas where the 700s and 900s are worse than the 240s (the other, IMO, is the interior). All 700/900 bricks have floating calipers. Some have one piston, earlier have two, and the earliest had integrated hubs/rotors (can you say major expendature of money on a regular basis?). The long and the short of it is that you need to lube the slide pins on a regular basis (at least once a year depending on the climate). Also beware of the strut rod bushings that need to be replaced about every 20,000 miles. Failed strut rod bushings can lead to warped rotors (so can looking at the brakes funny I suppose). The rear calipers on the live axle cars are the same as the ones on the 240.

    2) the 700's have a weaker automatic transmission -- not an AW70 but some other brand that will overheat if you rev the engine in neutral (I think I heard that the pump is driven by the output shaft, instead of the input shaft)?

    In the US the non-turbo 700s could be found with a ZF 4HP22 transmission. A friend of mine has the same unit in his Peugeot. I don't like it much, and don't see it as an improvement over the AW units at all. Theoretically the big advantage is the lockup torque converter. The later 700s and early 900s non-turbos could be found with an AW transmission that got the lockup TC. The transmissions are very easy to identify. The shift pattern on the ZF is PRND321, the AWs use the standard PRND21. The problems with the ZF are two-fold, and not because the pump is driven by the output shaft (altho it includes poor quality internal seals). If the car has been taken to a reasonable smog shop, and your state requires the idle tests, they should be aware of the TSBs out and know how to properly smog the car without ruining the transmission. As far as transmission swaps go, putting in an AW unit should be a no brainer.

    3) the 700's never got the improved wiring insulation that later 240's got?

    Not true. All 88+ Volvos got reasonable wiring harnesses. The 960s, of course, have their own issues with faulty wiring.

    4) certain models of 700's have an independent rear suspension, something to avoid in used car (viz., repair problems)?

    88-90 760 sedans had an independent rear suspension (a.k.a. MultiLink I). Rides like a dream, very adjustable, etc. Anything attached to the rear axle is unique to this suspension. Nivomats and IPD's custom Boge Turbo Gas shocks are available (both around $200/ea). Rear brakes are different, so the pads are too. If you go with a wagon, you'll have nothing to worry about (plus wagons are usually cheaper to insure, easier to parallel park, etc). Plus the 760s were only available with the V6 or the turbo.

    And anyone with experience with both 200's and 700's, do the 700's perform (handling, braking, etc., regarding "active" safety) substantially better than 240's? Are they worth the change? It isn't the cushy ride that I'm interested in, but definite improvements for my daughter's well-being.

    I'm not terribly impressed. There is more rubber between the suspension and the frame on the 700s, but it's still a live axle, and it still crashes over bumps. I found the stock 760 to be way too soft for my tastes. So I put some Bilstein HDs and a sway bar (19mm) in the back, and a bigger factory front bar (23mm). It's nicer, except the front struts are worn out. IPD bars, a factory lower chassis brace, and 'steins up front are on my long list of improvements to make. Straight line stability is improved with the 700s, but with reasonable tires on a 200 and a proper alignment you should be able to straighten that out.

    Anything to watch out for (peculiar to 700's) that I should consider when picking a 700?

    As everyone else said, check the FAQ. My recommendation would be to ensure that your daughter carries a copy of the FAQ and the easily replaced spare bits in the car. This includes: power stage, fuel pump relay, radio suppression relay, etc.

    Later (92+) 940s got a 760/960 style dash, an electric primary cooling fan, and with the fan came the unique 92+ style radiator (of which there is no all metal aftermarket unit IIRC), and of course SIPS..

    --
    alex








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      Really appreciated all the details !! Thanks very much. 700

      Hi. Thanks for the details -- it really gave me things to look for.
      I really appreciated your time.
      Ken








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    My thanks to all of you .... 700

    Thanks to all -- you've been a great bunch, and I've got a lot to think about now.
    I automatically put IPD swaybars and those chassis braces on all my 240's (and would with a 740, too); Eurosport Tuning's large slotted rotors (Cadmium plated to prevent rust on those cars I only use on weekends -- as my daughter's car would be) and calipers, too; new tires; upgrade the radiator with IPD's (Nissen's); transmission cooler for those with which I tow my boats; etc. So whichever car (240 or 740) I get for her, it will be well prepared -- and I'll be using it first for almost a year to get all the "bugs" revealed and fixed (she really doesn't want it until next summer, when her boy friend moves to grad school -- right now, they can only keep one car between them -- street parking restrictions in Cambridge). And, of course, she's already on my family AAA account, etc.

    I was really thinking about the SIPPS system, vs the drawbacks (brakes, etc.), so I'll keep all your advice in mind.








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    Protective dad needs purchase advice for a daughter's car 700

    Well Protective dad welcome to the real world. And you thought the teen-age years were 7 in number. HA. HA. My oldest daughter has been a teen-ager for 12 years now. One more year and she will have run out of schools to attend, I think.

    You have been given very good answers to your direct questions, but I'll take a different approach to help you attain your peace of mind.

    Get a 'new' car for yourself and give her one of your cars to drive. I suggest this, because you already have a good history and knowledge of the car. Fix anything that you have been putting off and maybe a few extras. Easier and cheaper in your care than 250 miles away. I find that when buying a 'new' used car, it takes 6 months to a year to work through all the hidden 'defects'. If you work it right, you will have all the bugs worked out of "your replacement" just in time to give it to her when she graduates.

    Buy her a membership in AAA and spend the extra few $$ to get the 100 mile towing option. Then when she travels home and back, if a problem does occur towing will likely be free to one destination or the other. She will never be tempted to change a flat tire on the side of the road. There will be someone to jump start it when the battery runs down because the glove box was left open for three days. True story - My daughter called AAA because her car would not start (bad neutral switch). Naturally it starts fine when the mechanic arrives. The main reason to move the car that day was to allow her roommate get her car out of the drive and get a semi-flat tire fixed. The AAA mechanic changed the tire for the roomate even though she wasn't a AAA member. This is typical of my experience with AAA road service. Their shops are usually run by first rate people. Really really Dumb question: She has a cell phone, doesn't she?

    Research the 'shops' section here, check with cartalk.com and bay13 for reference to shops in the town she is moving to. If you plan to visit there soon, make an appointment to meet the owner. My daughter is in Boston and I am in St. Louis. We found a shop this way and it works out pretty well. If she gets in over her head with the mechanic, She just asks "Can you talk with my Dad about this?" The answer is aways yes. By the way, he has no problem charging the repairs to my credit card. I wonder if this is why she always has him call me? Hmmm? Raise little finger on left hand, pretend to hold thread in right hand, and make circular motion around little finger. You get the picture!

    Good Luck,

    Dan
    P.S. I have often thought it would be a great idea to have a registry of "helping hands" on the brickboard for those of us with Sons and Daughters, and bricks away at school. Just a set of eyes and ears that can speak car talk. I am not talking about free major repairs, but I could certainly weed out a dead battery or defective fuel system relay, change a burned out headlight, or recommnd a great shop in my area. Just a thought.








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      Protective dad needs purchase advice for a daughter's car 700

      Buy her a membership in AAA and spend the extra few $$ to get the 100 mile towing option.

      AAA would like you to believe they're the only nationwide roadside service company around. There are alternatives out there, and mere words alone cannot express how strongly I recommend you go with the alternatives.

      AAA lobbies against public transportation, and IMO that's reason enough to vote with your dollars and take your business elsewhere. Click and Clack have more information on this.

      The AAA tow shops around here are a bunch of wankers as far as I'm concerned. From personal experience I'd say that AAA approval means absolutely nothing.

      When I left the lights on my sedan, I called for a jump. Now the alternator was fine, nothing wrong with it. But (as I later found out), the master cylinder was on its way out. The car had a voltmeter, so I could easily tell if the car was charging. Immediately after starting the car the tow truck driver ordered me to rev the engine, to which I said no (not wanting to rev a turbo right after starting it, and noticing that it was charging just fine). So he walks over and twiddles the throttle cable as I scream at him to stop. The MC eventually gave out and I rolled back into his truck.

      Eventually the alternator did give out, and I was driving the car around, knowing it was not charging. So.. one night around 9pm as I got off of work I realized the car wouldn't stay running, so I called for a tow. It was raining. In general not pleasant to be outside. Took them about 60 minutes of me hassling them on the phone to get someone out there. Of course the guy wouldn't give me a tow home. THREE FREAKING HOURS it took me to get a tow truck out there who would take me home. All the way they were bitching and moaning about how they had to call someone on a job OUT OF THE COUNTY to get me home. All the time on the phone enlightened me as to AAA policy. They pay the companies about $20-$25 per call, flat fee. They will reimburse me that much if I go call a company and ask for a tow (which is usually a few bucks per mile). For this I pay them money? Thanks, but no thanks. I don't live in the middle of nowhere.

      In general AAA pays less than the competition, and tow companies seem to regard AAA as a joke. I'm not even going to start in on how these guys manhandled my bricks.

      Let's not even start on the shop that AAA towed my friend's 1990 765T to. Replacing the power stage cost nearly $500 (and they charged his mom, who was driving at the time and knows squat about cars, to adjust the timing as well).

      Cell phone - good for making non-emergency calls )don't get me started on 911 from a cell phone).
      AAA - avoid at all costs.

      --
      alex








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        She's already got AAA 700

        She's already got AAA -- on my family policy. Since H.S., when she was driving every day (and now when she's home visiting and she drives one of my cars), I'd never let her out on the road without an AAA card! And cell phone, too, of course :-).








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        Protective dad needs purchase advice for a daughter's car 700

        Sorry for your bad experience. As I said my experience with AAA road service has been the exact oposite. People are people and it is certainly possible to find a bad operator in any industry with any sort of endorsement. Maybe I am charmed and have the ability to bring out the best in others instead of the worst.

        Dan











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          Protective dad needs purchase advice for a daughter's car 700

          Yes, people are people. However there are any number of things that AAA could have and IMO should have done to avoid having me wait in the rain for three hours. Of course I'm bitter to learn just how little the AAA approved sign means in terms of quality.

          What gets me, more than anything, is that they actively lobby against public transit funding. They fear that fewer people would drive. That's true in my case. If the bus wouldn't take three hours to make what would be a 15 minute trip by car.. I wouldn't drive nearly as much.

          --
          alex








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            Protective dad needs purchase advice for a daughter's car 700

            I must agree with you on the public transportation issue. I live in St. Louis and a worse system doesn't exist. We are trying to set up a light rail system, but the problem is there are very few 'right-of ways' to build on and the cost is staggering.

            Heard an interesting fact the other day on a PBS program about the future of the automobile. "Only 12% of the worlds population own cars." We have got to do something.

            Dan








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              Protective dad needs car -- and light rail? 700

              Dan look out for that light rail right-of-way.

              Here in Mpls they just got working a light rail route from downtown to near the airport -- about a dozen miles -- and it will be extended a bit. $3/4 billion. Etc. etc. etc. My back of envelope calculation says each ride costs about $15, but that don't matter to us, because we got you suckers to pay for 2/3 of it through federal funding. (That was tongue in cheek, OK?)

              Here's what does matter in our neighborhood, near the tracks:
              1. the LRT track was built parallel, about 50' away from, an existing major traffic artery (divided, 4 lanes, 40-45mph).
              2. At grade.
              3. Next, the LRT trains run every few minutes from either one direction or the other. (There's always one ABOUT to pass, at peak times.)
              4. The trains are given precendence at signals... they are never required to slow or to stop.
              5. So traffic is stopped: cross-traffic. AND left-turning traffic from the major route. AND right turning traffic from the major route. AND (often) ALL traffic on that same route, since they'd already had their light, and it was about to switch to cross traffic, but the train came...

              Guess, just guess!, what the efect has been on traffic?

              My daughter is a math major at college. I got a simple (ha!) book on game theory to check out with her. It lit my bulb: the LRT is competing against existing traffc, at grade, at intersections, given precedence... in a ZERO-SUM GAME. Guess who loses? Scads, scores, lines of idling cars, on the way to going nowhere. Was this anticipated? Is it a wicked method to get people out of our cars? (Ha! The LRT doesn't go anywhere to speak of.)

              Moan, groan... but watch what right-of-way they choose down your way... and build at grade? And...
              --
              Gregg; Mpls, MN; 1987 745, 1967 Amazon 4-dr.








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      We're on the same wavelength -- what Boston shop do you recommend? 700

      re: "...Research the 'shops' section here, check with cartalk.com and bay13 for reference to shops in the town she is moving to. If you plan to visit there soon, make an appointment to meet the owner. My daughter is in Boston and I am in St. Louis. We found a shop this way and it works out pretty well...."

      I've been thinking the same things. And my daughter is also there -- she's finishing HLS this year and will practice in a Boston law firm while living in Cambridge, so may I ask you -- what shop in Boston can you recommend for her Volvo's care?

      Thank you again?








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        We're on the same wavelength -- what Boston shop do you recommend? 700

        Swanson auto Service (Fred Swanson)
        666 Brookline Avenue
        Brookline, MA 02146
        617.738.4856

        Very thorough and comprehensive in their work. Reasonable labor rate and does not have huge parts mark-up.

        P.S. My daughter is right across the river in Brookline will be graduating from BU Law School next spring. Her future employment is undecided at the moment.

        Dan








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          Wow -- they might run into each other one day :-) 700

          Thanks very much for the shop recommendation.
          And what a coincidence -- they might meet in court (I hope not on opposite sides), or maybe wind up working for the same firm?
          Good luck and best wishes to your daughter!








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    Protective dad needs purchase advice for a daughter's car 700

    I've had 5 240s and now a '93 940 wagon. I still have an '84 and '88 240. They have all been good cars. The 940 wagon is nearly the same as the 740 wagon.But to compare the 940 and 240, I'd say this:
    940 Pros over the 240;
    SIPS side structure reinforcement
    driver airbag (maybe late 240s have this too)
    Better wiring connectors
    Much more logical location of electrical parts
    Alternator up where you can service it
    More modern suspension, handles better and no rear trailing arm bushings to replace.
    Larger gas tank in safer location.
    Seats more comfortable
    Lower belt line so shorter folks have better visibility
    Headlights are better
    AC with R134 which really works well and the fan is quieter.
    Dash illumination you can actually see at night.
    Some nice bells and whistles: heated electric mirrors, sunroof, ABS brakes, locking torque converter, electric memory driver's seat, split fold down rear seat. ( The AW 7x tranny is bulletproof in both the 240 and 7/940)

    240 pros over the 940:
    The 4-piston calipers on the 240 are probably more robust. However, if you clean the sliding pin, lube it with silicone greas, and be sure the rubber boot is good, there should be no problems with the 740/940. Most cars have sliding calipers today.

    More 240s in the boneyard and parts a little more available.

    Some 940s and 740s have the Rex-Regina (Bendix) ignition and fuel systems. While this is a good system, it is different from the familiar Bosch LH system on the 240. Parts are a little more dear and there is less expertise on this system on the BrickBoard apparently. My Regina system has worked just fine. I had to replace the AMM in my '88 Bosch system (ouch!!).

    The 240 is a simpler car and, if you are very familiar with servicing it, the 240 would be a good choice (1988 to 1993). The 940 is a more modern design which still has the same reliable engine and drive train as the 240.

    I'd say the 940 handles much better unless you've worked over the 240 with better shocks and the IPD bars. I've made some manuevers in the 940 I couldn't have done in my 240.

    Both cars seem to brake well.

    The airbags would be good for your daughter and your peace of mind. The SIPS is not an active safety feature but gives better side crash protection than the 240 has. I think you'd have to get a car with side air bags to do better.

    The later wiring in both models is good. The SE models of 940 have IRS rear suspension which I'd avoid only because the shocks cost so much.

    I haven't had to replace rotors or calpers on either model so I can't help there. The pads are easy on both.

    Hope this helps. My opinion and $1.50 will get you a cup of coffee somewhere.








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    Protective dad needs purchase advice for a daughter's car 700

    Most of the bugs got worked out by the early '90's, though the sliding calipers need to be fastidiously maintained or they do bind and then the rotors warp (had it happen a couple of times). I had a 1986 744 GLE with the ZF transmission, and it is now at 180,000 miles (my mother in law now drives it) with no problems. However, I have heard that the AW transmissions are much more robust and reliable. My 1991 745 turbo has that tranny and it has the "jumbo" sliding calipers, as well as an excellent wiring harness.

    If I were in your situation I would go with a '91 or '92 740, or a '91 or later 940, and make sure the service records are impeccable, or you might be in for major repairs. Good luck. I am a great fan of the 740 series.
    --
    Darius in Albany NY '86 744 GLE (175K, given to my mother-in-law); '91 745 Turbo (174K-my 'Little Red Wagon'), '00 Toyota Camry (65K - my wife's transportation appliance)








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      Protective dad needs purchase advice for a daughter's car 700

      PS I see a lot more rusty 230's than 740's - their bodies seem to be indestructible. My '91 is completely rust-free, and that is in the northeast!
      --
      Darius in Albany NY '86 744 GLE (175K, given to my mother-in-law); '91 745 Turbo (174K-my 'Little Red Wagon'), '00 Toyota Camry (65K - my wife's transportation appliance)








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    Protective dad needs purchase advice for a daughter's car 700

    See the 700/900 FAQ under the "features" button above for much more advice.

    The sliding calipers are simple, robust, easy to repair, and if lubricated last forever.
    The AW series trannies are bombproof. The earlier ZF's are not. They stopped selling ZF's around 1987.
    Wiring after 1988 is fine: no degradation.
    IRS is more complex and more expensive.

    My advice? Look for a 1992-1995 Volvo 940 with solid beam rear axle. The best of the four-banger Volvos.







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