I keep hearing about all sorts of propane conversions that people find on their 140s when they buy them or something, and i am wondering: would it be worth it to convert to propane; is it a good investment?

Gas here is currently $1.89 for regular
Propane Costs here $10.00 for a 20 lb. capacity tank that holds about 4.3-4.7 gallons of liquid propane.

i don't know what kind of miliage one gets running on propane, but i'm sure somebody in, say, the netherlands would know...

it would be on a '71 144s that gets currently between 16-19 mpg (gas guage is broken) not sure.

any information would be helpful
--
'71 142S (parts), '71 144S, '74 164E

Well, from the looks of it, you'd be better off investing in improving your current setup.

If I can assume you are in the US, remember that the price you quote for gasoline includes road/highway taxes, whereas the propane price does not.

If you get caught operating a road vehicle without having paid highway tax, good luck.
--
'73 142, '75 242, '75 245, '80 245, '86 244, '87 745T

In Oklahoma if you have a farm you can register it as a farm vehicle and
use about any fuel you want, distilled sawdust, distilled corn squeezin's,
veggie oil, CNG, LNG or LPG. Better have some mud on the tires and maybe
even the rest of the car though.
My politics and sensibilities insist that I should mention this:
Alcohol is better for MANY other purposes than for a motor fuel.
Those who would grow corn for motor fuel while ignoring the starving
in many countries have their priorities wrong IN MY OPINION.
We have US petroleum resources and petroleum producers that are languishing
while we are sending money overseas to buy other folks' oil.
By the way this comes from the playpen of the oil industry, where
the first commercial oil well in Oklahoma was drilled in 1897.
J. Paul Getty sold newspapers here!
--
George Downs Bartlesville, Heart of the USA!

New Zealand imports all it's fuel, but has it's own gas fields. So LPG is reasonably cheap, and like Australia we get Ford and Holden with factory fitted LPG as an option for just over US$1000 extra. After market conversion is about US$2000 to US$2500, and you need to drive about 300 miles every week for 3 years to recover the cost (I've done the calculations only a few days ago for our '88 B200E 240). That's 1 tank of fuel per week. Apparently you use up to 20% more LPG, factory fitted is about 10% more LPG. It is very popular among taxis, who obviously drives a lot. I was told that LPG is up to 110 ROM (octane) equivalent, but yesterday I saw on a local web site of the LPG supplier that it's 99 RON. Still better than 98 unleaded we get here at selected service stations (normally only 91 and 96) for double the price of LPG! (And the B20 is specified 100 RON minimum by Volvo.) One major advantage is that your oil and plugs stay clean. On LPG you don't change them because they are dirty, you change them because they are getting old. I think on LPG the oil eventually turns acid, but not sure.

Have fun...

Over here (europe) LPG has 105 RON.

The oil indeed stays cleaner a lot longer then on petrol, but I do not think you should postprone the service intervals because of that though. The oil still 'wears' out at the same speed, and the same amount of metal bits will be in the oil and filter compared to running petrol.

Next to the oil, the plugs, combustion chambres and piston tops stay a lot cleaner aswell, which is indeed also a good thing.

Offtopic, but Niel, is LPG getting more populair in NZ? I lived in NZ for a year, but don't remember having seen any car running LPG. (maybe since I lived in Incercargill, might be more common in the north?)

Cheers, Ben
--
P131, '65, B20B+M47. P131, '69, B20E+AW71L+LSD. (www.tinustechniek.tk)

Yes, apparently the oil turns to acid from LPG. Still looks clean, but needs changing.

Well, Auckland does have 50% of the NZ population so there are more LPG cars up here. As far as I know the taxis are all LPG due to the cost saving. Also keep in mind that NZ is a "green" country, and that is often a reason for people to use LPG. Three years ago our microwave oven died and my wife asked the neighbour if she could use her microwave to heat a baby bottle, then the lady started lecturing my wife how unnatural and bad microwaves are for you... Anyway, there are lots of service stations supplying LPG, but of cause that is also for BBQ gas cylinders. It is certainly easy to get LPG in the city, maybe not so easy in the country.

Have fun...

I suspect that oil turns acid from gasoline at least as much as from LPG
because most gasoline has some sulfur in it, and both produce CO2 as exhaust.
One of the things that reduces the acidity is to make sure your oil runs hot
enough to be dry. Typically oil temp should be about 100°F or 55°C hotter
than the coolant under continuous operation in warm temps so this is not
a problem. When it is cold and especially with short trips, the oil accumulates
moisture and will become acid with any hydrocarbon fuel. But the acid formed
will be much more corrosive if there is sulfur involved, as in most gasolines.
--
George Downs Bartlesville, Heart of the USA!

This is slightly off the subject but, if you are really getting 16-19 mpg, there should be lots of room for improvement with a tune-up and adjustment. I'm getting 22-25 in my "71 142E -- mostly rural back-road driving (45-65), 25% highway (65-75) -- and there are guys out there who claim to be getting as much as 28-30mpg, which turns me green with envy. If T&A doesn't produce a substantial improvement, a rebuild my be in order, which would, probably, cost about the same as converting to LPG/LNG, especially if you do everything but the machining yourself. From strictly a monetary point of view, considering the price of propane here in New England, the conversion isn't worth it. The environmental argument, of course, is an entirely different matter and well worth giving consideration.
Bob S.

Bob,
I agree. My 71 142E gets 25/26 around town and at least 28 on the freeway. I have OD and large diameter tires(205/65/15). The engine is original, with the low compression modification installed in the early 70's. It has never been apart except for that mod. I also have the Perlux electronic ignition unit, which I believe to be an imperative install for all of you guys out there.

Please pardon my crude expression taken from my experience in the USMC:

"She runs as smooth as a prom queen's thighs....."

However, in this case, I do believe that it is perfectly applicable due to the installation of the perlux electronic ignition coupled with the D-jet system.

If I was in the US, I would look for help in optimizing your brick instead of going for a propane conversion.
Just my $0.02

Jeremy

--
71 142E and a yard full of 240's in Mass.

Hey Jer!
Why would the Perlux system be any better than some other electronic system,
especially the 1975 240 system? I think what remains is to cobble up a
combination distributor that has both the reluctor above and the triggering
points below. One of these days, when the Yellow Peril is running well, I plan
to try that mod using an old B21 distributor as donor and a 73 B20F distributor
as the base. Shouldn't be that hard. Look at the 1975 B30F distributor,
for example. It had both.
--
George Downs Bartlesville, Heart of the USA!

Hi George,
There is no reason at all I can think of why the Perlux system is any better than the 75 240 setup. I think that I probably have a perception of it being easier(better) because IPD provided it in a kit form with easy instructions.
Furthermore, I believe that it should not be that difficult to put together a solid state triggering setup for the lower points.
I am not experienced in this, but would ask this: How important is the triggering contacts timing accuracy for the D-jet?
I think that it would make the system more reliable, but cannot see how it would improve performance like improving the accuracy of the main spark plug timing.
Maybe I am missing something.....

Happy new year!

jeremy
--
71 142E and a yard full of 240's in Mass.

An oil change. No major service till 120k

Bob
I have a modified 71 142E and on highspeed freeway driving (70-80 mph) I get 23 mpg. With more city driving mixed in, it only drops to 20 mpg. But I drive it real hard, always, striving to keep the rpm's in the 7001 street cam power band. Also I lightened the flywheel, so I lost some milage there.
When the motor was stock, 28 mpg on the highway was easy even with the origional 4:30 rear end ( I now am running a 4:10)
Do you think some of the milage variations experienced by different drivers is relative to their rear end gear ratio?

Joel G
--
Antique Swedish Steel (Never Rusty)

Economy is somewhat related to rear end ratio but remember, with higher
gearing, more torque is required at a lower speed.
I suspect that it is more related to the amount of lead in the driver's foot.
The harder you push the gas pedal the more gas you use, no matter what
engine speed! Too low an engine speed will make it worse if the engine
doesn't have optimal valve and ignition timing for the speed it runs.
--
George Downs Bartlesville, Heart of the USA!

Joel,
This will really change the subject, but you brought it up, so they can't blame me. Actually the question crossed ny mind as I was reading Ron Kwas' comments in the 120 Index.
Yes, I would think that, all other factors being equal, the longer legs would give you better mileage, at least, in theory. I tend to think, however, that driving habits generally have a bigger impact. Witness how people win those economy runs; sure, tuning is a factor, but how they drive really makes the difference.
My 142E came to me as an automatic and I swapped in an M41. I'm assuming the differential is a 4.3 (correct me, if that's wrong) - no tag, so I can't be sure. I have no idea what the OD has done to the final ratio, particularly since I don't know what series it originally came out of, and at he moment I'm running snow treads I borrowed from the 245. Oh yes, and I rebuilt the speedometer with pieces from two other ones. So I really have no idea to what extent the red ribbon reflects my actual speed. The seat of my pants tells me the speedo as about 5 miles pessimistic. I can resolve all these doubts by timing myself on a measured mile, but I may have to go up to Aroostook County to find a piece of I-95 where traffic is thin enough to do that accurately -- maybe Montana.
Bob S.

Yep - driving style, road conditions, etc all make very large difference. Add to that odometer errors too.

My Dad can get upper teens in his huge 4X4 Ford F350, and I can get less than that in my PV. My '95 VW Jetta GLX has a MPG readout on the trip computer, and if I drive it very, very carefully (as if there was a raw egg on the accellerator pedal really) I can get 30mpg in city driving, and with a suprisingly small amount of more exuberant driving (that VR6 really sings!) the same trip can net low 20's.

I've also noticed a difference in MPG going west to Colorado from Missouri across Kansas versus the same section or road coming back east - due I guess to the prevailing inds toward the west and the gradual loss of 4000 some odd feet in elevation between Denver and St. Louis.
--
Dingoes ate my sig!

Don't assume you get equivalent energy from a "gallon" of propane compared with a gallon of gasoline or petrol. A gallon of propane contains 100,000 BTUs, a gallon of No. 2 heating oil (used in our homes here in New England) contains about 136,000 BTUs, and typically costs less than a gallon of propane (which has less "energy" in it). Don't know how many BTUs are in a gallon of gasoline, likely more than propane, though. There are conversion kits to make internal combustion engines run on propane, and you'd likely have to SERIOUSLY strap down propane tanks in your trunk to store the fuel. The earth will thank you, though, since propane generally has a cleaner emissions profile than gasoline and reduces engine maintenance requirements. What about biodiesel? I followed a 240 diesel home here near the quebec border. It was moving slowly and it smelled like a popcorn maker behind. Then I saw the biodiesel bumper sticker. chris in vermont, 244, 945, r100rs, etc.

We used to run straight unconverted (other than carefully filtered) used cooking oil in my Dad's 60'-ish diesel Land Rover. Worked exceedingly well in summer months, although the first year we tried it we found out the hard way that it solidifies in cool weather - the Landy didn't budge until spring that year.

The Rover seemed to have as much power, less clatter, and a much better smelling exhaust (with a hint of the fried chicken?) running on veggie power. I don't know if a more modern common rail injection system would be affected by it, but the old mechnical land rover engine didn't mind it at all. And the restaurants seemed glad to find someone to take the used cooking oil off their hands, I think they had to pay to dispose of it otherwise.
--
I'm JohnMc, and I approved this message.

Haha, LOL. A friend of mine used to get used veggie oil from his local fish & chips. He filtered out the pieces chips and stuff that was in the oil using a blanket and ran his car on it for a year. And he to had the temperature problem of solidifying. Also had quite a particular smell...

Basically all diesels, including modern common rails, can run on veggie oil. The TDI's from VW however cannot. They use a different injection system which does not cope with with the veggie oil very well. In Germany you can buy Bio-diesel which is also just a veggie oil.

cheers, ben
--
P131, '65, B20B+M47. P131, '69, B20E+AW71L+LSD. (www.tinustechniek.tk)

I'm in the Netherlands and I think 80% of the amazons and 140/160's run on Liquefied Petroleum Gas, or LPG. Over here it's a mixture of propane and butane I believe, mixing ratio depending on the season.

Over here petrol is about $ 2,00 per liter, LPG is about $ 0,40 ....

LPG has less energy per liter then petrol (regular petrol has about 33, while LPG only has about 25 * 10^9 Joule / m^3. Because of this, a lower milage seems obvious. However, since the LPG is already vapourised in a separte vapouriser, the air/fuel rmixture is excelent and makes up a bit. In practice you'll need about 10-15% more LPG then petrol. The car is a tiny bit slower in the low rpm range though.

cheers, ben

btw1. Keep in mind you will need hardened exhaust seats. LPG has a higher operating temperature, so valve seats wear out quicker. Without hardened seat, you might be able to run 50k miles still though.

btw2. LPG has a lot less harmfull exhaust fumes, environmental-wise, which in my opinion is a small, but extra advantage.




--
P131, '65, B20B+M47. P131, '69, B20E+AW71L+LSD. (www.tinustechniek.tk)

Hi

In Australia there is two types of LPG conversions

Price of petrol 90c to $1.00 a litre
price of LPG around 50c to 60c a litre

Dual fuel (petrol/LPG)
This set up was first used by taxis and became more common. It is installed in new fords by ford Australia to be used by anybody
Dual fuel setups can only be tuned for one fuel so offend the LPG runs rich

LPG only

This setup is the best the engine can be built and tuned to suit LPG. This set up is commonly used in performance application both N/A and turbo & supercharging

I have intension of using LPG only setup on my 74 144gl that I am slowly resto/modding

I also have a 82 244DL with a carby engine. I am going to use a High compression/performance 2.3L volvo engine and run it on LPG only. Insteed of converting it to CIS injection

George

Cars I own

Restoration project
Personal import 1974 144gl B20a M40

Everyday car
1989 740 turbo B230ft/AW71

Cars I have owned
1982 244GL B23e/M45
1986 760GLE B28f/AW71

Yeah, the cars over here all have 'dual fuel'. The existing petrol system stays where it is, the LPG kit just gets added. I can just flick a button on the dash and swith between LPG and petrol when I want to (for example when I ran out of LPG, I just continue on petrol)

If I remeber correctly, over here volvo sold 240's called Bi-fuel. They had both fuel system installed at the factory.

cheers, ben
--
P131, '65, B20B+M47. P131, '69, B20E+AW71L+LSD. (www.tinustechniek.tk)

yes, it all would be interesting to try, have a vehicle run on LPG, but i live here in northwest montana, and so it wouldn't be really practical.

another thing: as far as fuel economy goes.

now, right now, things are not as good as they can be on the car and the shocks need to be replaced (they are actually so shot that they are kinda frozen in one position and rarely move up or down unless under great movement, never at all for little bumps). also, there is a fairly 'large but not so big that it can't wait till spring' amount of rust on the car. little electronic and cosmetic stuff, but right now i'm working on mechanical, which is probably the most importaint thing.

i am running a weber DGV carb on a TWM intake (no idea of its origin, except i think the company is German) and an original exhaust manifold that has the intake half cut off, presumably with an oxy-acetylene torch. i adjusted the idle mixture screw to about two turns out and finally got the idle setting constant after adjusting a too-short throttle linkage. now the tranny (auto) doesn't shift as early as it used to, thus (i know it does for a fact) lowering my fuel economy tremendously because i've ran low on fuel several times when i've tried to make the thing go over 60 for any period of time. the car doesn't seem to like to have the engine 'screaming' like that, and neither do i. the head has recently been redone, about 3000 miles ago, as well as the carb rebuilt between 200 and 400 miles. the jets have not been changed at all. i think they are the biggest ones that came in the set, being a 065 and a 135 for the idle and the main, respectivly. i could be wrong on the main number. might be closer to 155 but i'm not wading through snow out to the glovebox to find out. i think the jet set is paired with the carb cause i got it and the manifold setup from my 142 which is now 'decommissioned' as well as the jet set which i got out of the other unused spare tire well. the wrapping was moldy so i assume it had been there a while, likly the age of the carb.i am assuming both, or i know the jet set at least, came from IPD. anyway, what can i do to improve fuel consumption as well as possibly prevent the engine from losing vacume so suddenly when i stomp on the gas, a condition which i was instructed on by Jeremy of IPD? (this loss of vacume causes the engine to bog down and some times pop out like its running lean when its actually running rich, it just doesn't have enough vacume to suck any gas into the cylenders)

thanks for your imput up to this point, btw everyone. i learn more every time i come on to the brickboard.
--
'71 142S (parts), '71 144S, '74 164E

yes, it all would be interesting to try, have a vehicle run on LPG, but i live here in northwest montana, and so it wouldn't be really practical.

Well, you're the one who inquired about it ;)

As far as your 'economy problems': I don't know a lot about the DGV Weber other then it's a progressive carb which should get reasonable milage. If you think your engine is running rich on acceleration you might have to tinker with jets, float level or accelerator pump, but as I said, I dunno enough about the DGV.
Loss of power on acceleration however, is more often related to a mixture that's too lean, rather then too rich.

If you realy think the carb tuning is the problem, you might want to start a new thread on that and get some helpfull reply's from people that DO know the DGV unlike me...

Cheers, Ben


--
P131, '65, B20B+M47. P131, '69, B20E+AW71L+LSD. (www.tinustechniek.tk)