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Yeah... So I went out to my car earlier this evening, and went through the usual struggle to get it started, and got it to do the normal harley style, very rough startup, but then it didn't smooth out after a few seconds... It never smoothed out, even after reaching operating temperature. The car is running on the two front cylinders only. It was late, and colder than I'd like, so I didn't mess around with it too much. I pulled out the plug in the third cylinder and it was very black, so I figured I was experiencing my first bit of plug fouling, which still may be the case. So anyway, I swapped in one of my many other older NGKs and started it up real quick. I think it ran a little better, but now I'm not so sure>>> I then turned it off and put in another plug in the 4th cylinder to see if that completely cured it and had the car running on all 4 cylinders like it's supposed to be. When I turned it on, it was running on cylinders 1-2 only again... And that's where I left it for the night. Driving it around with it getting too much fuel and doing a little bit of backfiring and chugging around like a harley and vibrating like one too, was pretty crappy considering it feels like it has about 25 hp and my car is lugging around a "few" extra pounds in the trunk. Sounds cool though...
Any suggestions for me to look through when I go out tomorrow and play with more plugs? We'll see what I take a look at. Kinda annoying, cold weather sucks...
And FWIW, the car always seems to run on two or three cylinders for the first 30 or so seconds after I finally get to stop cranking it, which normally takes about two minutes total of cranking time when the temp is below 40 degrees like it is. And no, that's not with my choke fully open, because I can't fully open it, stupid cable is crap, I might be able to fiddle with it some more to get it to operate a little better, but yeah, I'll look into that tomorrow as well.
And "UPDATE" on the T-Stat crap, I put the "newer" seal on the "old" T-stat that I put in the car that actually worked, and I also made use of your idea George, sanded down the housing a little bit, and it now seals great. Now I just need a new radiator cap, because this one doesn't really close and seal... :-\
On another topic, a while back I retarded the timing a little bit so I can run regular gas, to reduce the amount more I get into debt, and the car is that much harder to start when it's cold and it has noticeably less power, and this is how it was dynoed... Really makes me wonder how much power I really have... And why it pings at 10 deg. advanced when it's warm out, and why I'm currently unemployed...
Thanks in advance!
ps. Ever since I got those Magnecore wires it seems to be acting funny...
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Kyle - OVT website and club Official Portland/Corvallis, OR - 1968 142 - current setup: 71b20b SUs, m40, part. stripped, custom CAI, 4-2-1 FI man., Simons exhaust... IPD sways +more
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Well, with a quick glance at it, I looked into the rear carb's throat, lifted up the piston a bit, and saw what I assume is the needle(which I never knew was the needle, if it is anyway) sitting down way low in the carb and not attached to the piston... Interesting. So, I popped off the top of the carb, pulled out the "needle", and pushed it back into the bottom of the piston. Then I proceeded to start the car after advancing the timing a tad. Worked roughly but on four cylinders, and had some power now.
I went to the nearest Auto Parts store and picked up some brand new BP6s. On my way back to my apt. the engine stalled at a stop light and would not even start... I pushed and got some help getting pushed right around the corner to a spot where I could take a look at it. The needle had fallen out again, and this time I made sure to push it in all the way. I also took this moment to take out the plugs, gap the new ones to .032, and not have to deal with it anymore. All the while my battery(only 3-4 months old) is dying...
But anywho, yeah, got it to start back up, and lifted the pistons one by one while the engine was idling, and sure enough, the car would pick up idle speed. That meant it was rich said George I think? So anyway, the car was idling kinda rough, seemingly like the choke was on, I made sure it wasn't and then proceeded to screw out the mixture screws about a full turn or slightly more. About even on both, but not quite. The idle smoothed out a little bit and raised up a tad, so I was pleased.
I then went to a gas station and filled my tank with 2/3 89 octane gas, on top of the 1/3 tank of 87 that was aready in there. The car still pings... When I got back to my apartment, I screwed out the mixtures on the carbs a little more and it got a little better again and I took it out for 10 minute drive. It still pings, and I'm not sure what exactly the timing is set at, but I'm assuming around 10. I'll get my timing light next weekend so I can check it then.
And that's that for now pretty much, I took a quick look at the point gap and my .016 feeler guage goes in but opens the gap a bit in the process, so I think that may be too tight, but I don't like messing with that gap too much so I left it be when I found that the needle had fallen out. The dizzy cam looked a bit non-symmetrical when I glanced at it, but I'm pretty sure it's not worn out... I also put all the magnacore wires back on(I had swapped to the bouicords when I first got it started, then put the magnacores back on with the new plugs). The car did the little electrical glitch that it used to do a little bit back when I dynoed the car and couldn't get it started... So for a little moment it lost power, but then picked back up again, and isn't really giving me problems so I'm leaving it as is. Also when I had made the dyno run, I had disconnected my tachometer because it was jumping around erratically a little bit when I was having those electrical problems(the battery was also dead and low on electrolyte in a couple cells at the time), and over winter break I reconnected it and it hasn't been giving me trouble either. But I'm pretty sure that it read's high FWIW, it's an old one that I picked up from a garage sale for $1 back in the day. Before that I had a steering column mounted Sunpro one that I had bought new which I SWEAR read a little lower. No matter really, at least I have some way of telling how fast I'm traveling at night now.
Blah blah blah ramble on. I hope you enjoyed it! Any further comment and insight always appreciated!
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Kyle - OVT website and club Official Portland/Corvallis, OR - 1968 142 - current setup: 71b20b SUs, m40, part. stripped, custom CAI, 4-2-1 FI man., Simons exhaust... IPD sways +more
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If your taper needle is falling out it means that the screw that holds it in
is not tight enough(and maybe a little bushing is missing).
Unless your distributor is nearly new or in VERY good shape, setting points
with a feeler gauge is probably not very effective. The point cam wears and
you don't get enough point dwell to properly develop the magnetic field in
your coil at high speeds. You need a dwell meter and it should be about
60° dwell. If the distributor is badly worn you may have to have a very
small point gap to get that much. Naturally that also affects the timing
so do the dwell first then the advance.
Sounds like you are doing some good! Don't give up too quick!
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George Downs Bartlesville, Heart of the USA!
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Yeah, I'm going to wait until I can head over to Shayne's house next before we mess with the points, he's got a dwell meter, and we'll probably play with the mixture a little bit then too. I don't know about a screw or bushing that holds the needle in place... I'll have to study a diagram next time the thing falls out so I can really fix the problem.
Also, that electrical gremlin, is not gone... It's back, and worse than it has been for the past couple months, but still not too bad. I was just leaving from my apartments earlier this evening, and it died when i was coming to a stop, but it'll turn on right away usually, so all's well. I unno...
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Kyle - OVT website and club Official Portland/Corvallis, OR - 1968 142 - current setup: 71b20b SUs, m40, part. stripped, custom CAI, 4-2-1 FI man., Simons exhaust... IPD sways +more
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posted by
someone claiming to be Rhys
on
Tue Jan 18 19:17 CST 2005 [ RELATED]
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Hi Kyle;
It is possible that the swaged flange on the needle has dropped off. If that is the case let me know and I will ship you another needle no charge, or you can ship me the entire piston with needle and I will put it right. It's all garanteed.
Rhys
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If it gives me any more problems and I don't need my car for a while, or if I get my hands on another car for DD duty, then I'll send it up to ya, but for now it's fine. Thanks! =D
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Kyle - www.OVTuners.org website and club Official Portland/Corvallis, OR - 1968 142 - current setup: 71b20b SUs, m40, part. stripped, custom CAI, 4-2-1 FI man., Simons exhaust... IPD sways +more
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posted by
someone claiming to be Rhys
on
Wed Jan 19 03:31 CST 2005 [ RELATED]
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That's great Kyle. I was thinking that perhaps the needle holder itself has come loose, and if so you can remove the vacuum chamber, and invert the piston, and push the holder in until it is flush with the bottom of the piston, and the flat on it is directly in line with the set screw. Then tighten the set screw. It is possible the screw has come loose. Good idea to check before running the engine again.
Rhys
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Just from recent experience (yesterday) I found my B20 running rough and pulled the plug wire off number 1 and #2 it didn't change a thing...still rough. When I pulled #4 it almost stalled. Looked at it with a dumb expression.. then... Oh yes, I "punched" to show off for a friend and wondered if maybe it got something stuck? Yep! The piston in the front HS6 was stuck up and result was very rich mixture. 3 Screws later and the dashpot was off and I saw the lower portion of the inner shaft of the piston wasn't as shiny and needed to be lubed and "worked" free. Some GumOut and back together and everything was fine. I guess opening up the throttle all the way should be done more frequently, yes, that's the ticket, flog the car more often and things won't stick!
Christopher
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Well, I most certainly do flog the car often enough... ;) Well, when I drive it that is, but it doesn't see too much action in these winter months, especially with me not having any real money for gas. But, I may look into the carbs to see if anything's stuck...
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Kyle - OVT website and club Official Portland/Corvallis, OR - 1968 142 - current setup: 71b20b SUs, m40, part. stripped, custom CAI, 4-2-1 FI man., Simons exhaust... IPD sways +more
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Let me see if I understand this. Your problem seems to be on #3 and #4,
right?
You are running SU carbs on this engine? HS6s or HIF6?
Sounds like the back carb might be too rich and the front one too lean.
Both back plugs are black and the front ones are what color?
I suggest you check your float levels and maybe your mixture using the
method prescribed in the manual and see how it does. If it speeds up
when you lift the piston it is definitely too rich.
And if one carb is too lean (spark plugs extra clean) that could be why it
is pinking excessively. A LITTLE pinking is tolerable if performance is good.
10°advance is definitely not enough unless you have disconnected a vacuum
advance to check it, then reconnected. With everything connected I usually
run mine around 20, sometimes up to 24° and when the engine is warm and
climbing a hill at low speed it clatters some but under normal driving it
doesn't.
Adjusting the timing to cover up another problem is usually a bad deal.
Among other things it makes the engine run hot and robs a lot of power.
I've burned off a couple exhaust pipes just beyond the manifold that way.
And I am not partial to a glowing manifold right below my carburetors.
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George Downs Bartlesville, Heart of the USA!
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Yep, cylinder's 3 and 4, the back SU HIF6... The mixture may very well be off, I've never been good at messing around with it, and just recently over winter break gotten it to pull better at lower rpms(1-2k) by messing with it, but if I remember correctly, I was mostly adjusting the front carb, because messing with the rear carb wasn't seeming to change anything much. That would suggest a possible vacuum leak, but I don't think there are any, we've already had that problem before, and it should be taken care of. I'll look into the front two plugs to see what they look like.
The timing on this engine has always been wierd, this motor is a b20B that I got from a j/y that has GOOD compression, 180 180 180 164 compression I think last time I checked it. My previous motor, the 74 b20f liked running around 18 degrees advanced on regular gas... I've already tried flushing water through the engine while running to clean up some of the possible carbon deposits, and it may or may not have helped much, but I think I did it for a decent amount of time and got rid of a lot of it. I'll be advancing it later today to see if that helps any along with some of the other stuff I'm going to check....
--
Kyle - OVT website and club Official Portland/Corvallis, OR - 1968 142 - current setup: 71b20b SUs, m40, part. stripped, custom CAI, 4-2-1 FI man., Simons exhaust... IPD sways +more
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Sure sounds like the back carb and it could either be set too rich, the
float level could be set too high or it could be too high because the float
valve is not closing for any of several reasons. If that is the case it will
look wet in there and you may actually see gasoline flowing downhill there
if you lift the piston and look in.
If it is indeed flooding in the back carb, all the adjustment in the world
won't make much difference because it will always be too rich. That is sure
where I would look. First you might try adjusting the mixture screw out to
see if it does help.
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George Downs Bartlesville, Heart of the USA!
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Overflowing HIF SU's drain into the carb throat, often drowning those cylinders. This was considered an improvement over the HS - which instead dumped it out in the open down onto the exhaust manifold.
Quite often the cause of an overflowing carb is grit in the fuel jamming the needle valves open.
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"Quite often the cause of an overflowing carb is grit in the fuel jamming the needle valves open."
That could possibly be the problem too... My gas tank has always had rust in it, and it's been filling up filters ever since I've owned the car, but the car has always had filters on it. But that's not stopping some grains getting into the carbs completely is it? I've always worried about it, and I still haven't even put the filter before the pump to protect it. I need to find some gas line and get off my butt and relocate the filter before it.
Thanks for the thoughts everyone!
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Kyle - OVT website and club Official Portland/Corvallis, OR - 1968 142 - current setup: 71b20b SUs, m40, part. stripped, custom CAI, 4-2-1 FI man., Simons exhaust... IPD sways +more
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posted by
someone claiming to be Ken C
on
Mon Jan 17 01:49 CST 2005 [ RELATED]
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Hi. At first, reading your description, I was thinking that maybe one possibility is bad wires (i.e., spark plug wires) or distributor cap, since only the back two cylinders seem to be affected -- anything else (except also the spark plugs, which you changed) would be common to all four cylinders. Then, in your p.s., you mentioned that this was since you put in new "Magnecore" wires ... ah, ha!
Any chance that either the wires are defective, or your installation created a problem, e.g., you didn't snap the terminals in (either the distributor cap, or plugs) properly, or you've got a wire that's too close to a ground and it's bleeding off voltage?
Example: I once routed a wire too close to a piece of the engine, and over time it began shorting out - the engine was running really rough, and it stymied me until I picked up the wire and, all of a sudden, the engine smoothed out. The wire was actually shooting "sparks" through its insulation into the engine's metal.
Also, just FYI, higher seasonal temperature exacerbates an engine's likelihood to ping -- very often, a car that pings in summer is OK in the winter.
Have fun.
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Yeah, all the ignition components are new though... So anyway, I'll check the points gap, I'll swap on all my old bouicord wires, and swap in some other plugs again to the rear cylinders, and advance the timing a little bit and see where that gets me. And yeah, with the cool air outside it has definitely been less likely to ping running at 10 degrees advanced, but when I retarded it I didn't have my timing light with me, and am assuming it's around 0 degrees advanced right now, I'll be bumping it up a little bit, see if it helps me any. And about wires grounding on the block, that's not the case, my wires are in good condition, well, on the outside anyway, who know's what they're like inside, or if it will make any difference, but there wasn't any extraneous sparking that I could see last night in the dark....
Definitely having fun ;) =D Lol. It means that after I get through this the car will be running better than it was before, so it's all good!
--
Kyle - OVT website and club Official Portland/Corvallis, OR - 1968 142 - current setup: 71b20b SUs, m40, part. stripped, custom CAI, 4-2-1 FI man., Simons exhaust... IPD sways +more
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